should BZWC become a league?

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should BZWC become a league?

Post by zaphod » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:54 am

hello to all the bzf-players out there ::: I need your help to make up my mind!

as some of you might remember, the BzWorldCup 2010 ended a couple of weeks ago and it was quiet a success looking at the activity in general of BZFlag.
after the CUP ended I have been asked from OpenLeague to hand over the map for their league but the last second I changed my mind and asked for some time to think it over. I am sorry for being indecisively but those maps we mapmakers create are like children to us ;) so it is our responsibility to find the right spot for them.
i believe that the BZWC map has some potential with its new play-style to capture one single flag that makes the game-style very offensive.
and especially with the new plugin PassTheFlag that FiringSquad released recently to enhance the fun with all its new tactical possibilities of team-play for strategical passing the flag and skill needed to outplay your opponent.
this play-style makes a BIG difference to all other leagues and the moment might be just right to create a new one and bringing in some fresh air which IS needed!
supported by many PM's I received that say "go league with it" and going so far that even some hardcore DUC players wrote me that the DUC map got boring and GU players saying that they miss the action after the BzWorldCup 2010. (just some players who shared their thoughts, which i appreciate very much! this is rare to get such good responses from a map and the only way we mapmakers get "paid" and realize why we make maps.)

on the OpenLeague Forum was a thread started suggesting to bring the BZWC map into OL and it was disappointing to watch the little response it got?! which tells me that the OL crowd is not really interested?! and will OL become a cemetery for the BZWC map?!

but at the same time writing the words: "to create a league" I realize also what it means to run, maintain, update, keep interest and invest a lot of time in it! and looking at the general activity in bzf makes me doubt that idea instantly!
but what are the reasons that league-activity is so low at the moment :::
- is there something "new" missing in the leagues that players lose interest?
- is it BZFlag itself that gets overtaken by other games out there and becomes "dusty"?

so at the moment I am REALLY confused and honestly I don't know what to do!!??!?!??!
1 - should I hand over the BZWC map to OL or
2 - should I start a league with it?

thanks for listening and please help me out here with your suggestions to finally make up my mind!



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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by jh^ » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:49 pm

Actually,we in the showdown league are looking for nice concept(for a long time now), even website is ready for league play. So if you dont want to start from scratch,
you could consider giving your map to our use;). I am sure murielle would be happy to make you map chief:P and more:P.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by SkillDude » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:56 pm

Option 2. However, your concerns are legitimate. I started BZSoccer a few years ago as you may recall, and it was great and people were actively involved in it for the first month it was around. And then I made a bad move. I went offline...(Craziness, I know, why would I ever do that, right?!?) Others who were relying on me to get matches going and people were helping each other look for matches on the map stopped doing so and the activity dropped exponentially!

It's hard to get the crowd going and you need to literally "force" some matches until people start doing it on their own. BZSoccer League reached a point where it almost did that, but then the people gave up and it all stopped. Not to mention you still have to compete with Ducati and GU, everyone's not just going to forget that and go there.

Also, you want to make sure that the teams are not instantly set up for success. What I mean for this is all of the good players on one team. Now I realize that there are a lot of BZFlag members who have been with each other for years on end and have good friendships, but that could work to the league's advantage by making each run their own teams and pitting their teams against each other. I remember GU making efforts to separate all the good guys and add some more "action" into the GU League, and I believe you will want to make sure that occurs here too if you go this route.

Take these considerations into mind. As a former (And now much older) BZFlag player / League Manager you may want to take these words into thought, and anyone else's who has wisdom like mine they would like to share. Good luck, I hope for the best, I'll try to support when I can. I can see this league taking on what I originally wanted BZSoccer League to do, create something new and different than what has been around for the past.... long amounts of years.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by mrapple » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:39 pm

My opinion: no.

Right now, there are a ton of leagues for people to play in. We don't really need another league.

I say you leave the map up for people to play on freely when they want and do a BZWC match next year. If that seems to long, you could even do it once every 4 months?

Just some thoughts, but I really think a whole new league for this is unnecessary considering most leagues die anyways.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Murielle » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:32 pm

in my opinion yes.

There is a ton of leagues and so what? It is a myth to say that there is place only for a given number of league. People just play where they have fun and a league such that WC would be a fun place.

I think there is a huge place for something new and refreshing and innovant as the league that zaphod suggests. I have not seen anyso exciting things in league since Angry kitties. It is a new concept. It cant be in any league because it is so much original by itself. It can be also improved.

Personnally, i would prefer to play in WC rather than in duc cause there is more speed, new tactics etc ....

Now, zaphod, you fear bout the job you would have to do for managing the league? About the admin part, I think you would find all the admins you need around. About the spawnlist etc.. It can be solved with global login and you would screw up this forum thread "add me on spawnlist" that is 99% of the activities of some league owners somewhere. About managing perms, bans, reporting scores... well a nice plugin can automate so much things you know ?

I am 100% with zaphod for a league !!!!

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by mrapple » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:44 pm

Murielle wrote:About managing perms, bans, reporting scores... well a nice plugin can automate so much things you know ?
If I remember right, you made a plugin like this. Right Murielle?

Would you be willing to share it (and your webleague mods) with BZWC? If so that would be cool and give the league a better chance at success.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Murielle » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:59 pm

mrapple wrote:
Would you be willing to share it (and your webleague mods) with BZWC?
It is off topic. But I would help zap if he asked me. Other could help him (you could mrapple). FiringSquad could help too (he had done already a lot). Anyone can help.If you noticed it right, i shared all my plugins, even ""switch plugin that allows you to write your zombies plugin.

I am sure zaphod could expct the help of all ....... right ?

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by mrapple » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:40 pm

If others sound interested and really want the league, I would be willing to help too.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Murielle » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:44 pm

maybe, zap would need an advanced website.... how is going your project, mrapple?

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by mrapple » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:35 am

Murielle wrote:maybe, zap would need an advanced website.... how is going your project, mrapple?
By project do you mean league connect?

It was kind of dead before it started. Don't really have time for it now that school has started anyways.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Murielle » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:47 am

I think there is a potential in BZWC as a league. They (zaphod and FiringSquad) did a real good job. it is refreshing. I would enjoy to see such a league. I wish that bz community would help zaphod to do such a project.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by catay » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:50 am

About ducati.
It's already proclaimed 'death' for more then 5 years. Tons of rescue attempts were already done to keep it active.
At some point people get bored of it and move on. Only the die-hards stay. That's life. :)
For me it's playing a good match that counts .. that's were the fun is.

About leagues in general. I also don't believe in many leagues for BZFlag as the player community is just too small for it.
But that's just my opinion. Everyone who want's to start a league has the freedom to do it. It's not like somebody is gonna stop you.

About BZWC. Contradicting myself here. I also think it would be better a league on it's own as the style is way too different to fit in somewhere else.
The map has a lot of potential imho. The way the ratings are done per team should be a little bit different. Something similar to 1vs1 maybe. A winner of the month team or something. Didn't really think about it that well. It should be something which makes it more competitive and gives every team a chance of winning at some point.
As with all leagues, the hardest part will be keeping it active after the first few months.

Take care.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Zac » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:00 am

i want a BZWC league please zaphod!

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by red-der » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:59 am

Zaphod and FS did a really great job with the map and the plugin. And I really like the game play idea too.
But as some people already stated (sigonasr2, cobra_fast), starting a new league is a really big project and a lot of work. Its even harder to maintain it and keep it running. With enough players, the best place for WC would be an own league. But until bzflag comes back with a lot of new players, WC may has to check out the 2nd or 3rd best alternative.
Last edited by red-der on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by miro » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:35 pm

i vote yes, a new league would be good :D

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Nem » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:36 pm

You know my opinion zaph, a league for this special style is appropriate so my vote is yes. The only alternative is to incorporate it with ducati that is similar (but having 2 different rankings) but like you and upsetter said it's impossible to do.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by kierra » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:05 pm

zaph,
What you do with bzwc ultimately rests with you....obviously there are many opinions on both sides of the issue. Trying to get consensus here is crazy :)
I say 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. You have nothing to lose but time invested in getting a league together. Trying is the only way you will know whether it will work or not. If it doesn't work as an independent league...so what! It doesn't change the fact that the map with FS's plugin is tremendous fun and a breath of freshness to the game. It doesn't mean that the map will die....just that the venue didn't work.
With legitimate site hosting and server hosts, go for it....then you will know for sure in your own mind.

We can chat in pm on particulars.
Last edited by kierra on Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by mrapple » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:15 pm

As far as match servers go, I'm sure zaph will host a euro one. I would be willing to host a US server if the BZWC League actually gets established.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Sum Ting Wong » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:49 pm

OL already has quite the number of maps as it is, I doubt it really needs another.

If the BZWC became its own league, then I would without a doubt attempt to play in it actively -- we had some great games in the BZWC for both the players and the observers. A small question though, if it became a league, would you still be doing the whole country vs country-esque thing? Because to me, that is what made it enjoyable.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by catay » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:04 pm

I totally agree with Kierra. Not much risk in trying to start a new league. I'm sure a lot of trushworthy people are willing to help you.
I'm definitly gonna play in it. Let me know if i can help out with something.

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by brad » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:43 pm

catay wrote:I totally agree with Kierra. Not much risk in trying to start a new league. I'm sure a lot of trushworthy people are willing to help you.
I'm definitly gonna play in it. Let me know if i can help out with something.
yep :-)

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by blast » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:48 pm

There we go. I cleaned up this thread. Now let's stay on topic. This isn't a battle of the leagues/players. This is to discuss if a new league should be created for this map/style.

(I tried my best to ensure that the discussion still made sense)

I'd also recommend a few people read the forum rules again, specifically #2 and #9 in this instance.
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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by Zac » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:13 pm

*previous comment removed for offensiveness* >:D "joking!!!", "lets not get off topic here folks!"

I think this is a really good idea Z. i hope to see it get nice and active

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:16 pm

Thanks for all the nice comments about my plugin.
I think it deserves its own league and I will do what I can to help.

Do I need to add an offside rule? ;-)
Is there anything you would change?
Have I opened up Pandora's box?

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Re: should BZWC become a league?

Post by kierra » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:07 am

Can we discuss plugin upgrades & changes in another topic/thread :-)
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