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Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:09 pm
by tainn
From our current active playerbase, there are quite a few people that prefer playing on flagged maps over their non-flagged counterparts. However, as it stands right now, leagues are only based around maps with no flags.

From the flagged maps, I had most notably heard of people wishing to partake in fun or official matches on laser sniping maps, such as Boxy or LaserMania.

As such, I was wondering, would it be possible to have some sort of a sniping league focus in the entire picture, potentially being a part of leagues united as well? I believe including such maps would bring even more people into the leagues and offer a variety of battlegrounds to choose from.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm
by kierra
tainn
I have often thought adding timed ctf with super flag maps (i didn't think to limit it to laser sniping maps) would be fun and benefit those players wanting a more competitive situation.
Will bring this up in LU @ forum.

There really are not enough players for yet another separate league. Incorporating this idea into LU would work

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:31 pm
by tainn
Yeah, agreed entirely. And while I didn't seem to explicitly mention this in the OP, I also meant this idea solely to exist as an addition and not separation, meaning only a potential extension to the leagues united, not its own league.

With our current activity, we truly ought to bring it all into one focus point and then let the individual players decide if they will specialize into some maps over others or not.

Having it extended from laser sniping to different types of CTF is something I also agree on wholeheartedly. Perhaps even advertise an opt-in to map creators, when announcing their new maps that they can specify whether their map can be used as a LU match platform.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:13 pm
by Zehra
It would be good for this thread to be moved to the lu forums, as these days there is only a single league.

-Zehra

P.S. If thread moved, please delete this post.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:47 pm
by macsforme
Superflags (random superflags, anyway) introduce an element of chance that gives an advantage to the team that happens to find stronger flags than the other. There is a reason that league maps are typically symmetrical and have no superflags, which is to give the teams equal footing. Imagine introducing dice into a game like chess.

Some maps are set up with all the superflags in pre-defined positions. This in the only scenario I can imagine where a map with superflags would be equitable enough to work well in a league context.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:59 pm
by kierra
I think this post is fine for here, as it is an open, generic discussion for anyone interested in joining in (not just LU players). A non league player might not bother to read a LeaguesUnited thread. I trust moderators' good judgement.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:11 pm
by tainn
macsforme wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:47 pm
Superflags (random superflags, anyway) introduce an element of chance that gives an advantage to the team that happens to find stronger flags than the other. There is a reason that league maps are typically symmetrical and have no superflags, which is to give the teams equal footing. Imagine introducing dice into a game like chess.

Some maps are set up with all the superflags in pre-defined positions. This in the only scenario I can imagine where a map with superflags would be equitable enough to work well in a league context.
Two-team CTF maps usually hold a certain level of consistency as to where flags are placed and do not have them scattered randomly, that's usually the FFA maps. As such the usage of the word 'only' there is really misleading, albeit correct.

I would also argue that luck has almost nothing to do with it the moment a battle is longer than 5 minutes, even on FFA maps, as the only thing it does is increase the value of constant movement and careful enemy observation as well as positioning. There's a reason why good FFA players are always on the top of the list and not scattered across it. But as said, that is a debate for another time as it has no place here, since FFA and CTF maps are usually different in their fundamental state.

On the topic of moving this thread to the LU forum, I believe that is unnecessary. The idea of this matter being inclusive to the already-existing leagues united is a strong (and possibly the only logical) way to go around it, but it is still a general debate.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:34 pm
by etigah
I think Space Invaders map by ahs would be a good candidate for addition to the league. I like the way superflags are used in this particular map, as they serve tactical purpose, and encourages team cooperation (unlike other maps which play mostly like FFA). It might be worth a try in a full match.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:11 pm
by Zehra
You may wish to use something like Google Forms or SurveyMonkey for this as well.
(Most players rarely read the forums or post.)

-Zehra

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:46 pm
by tainn
There will likely be a different approach to it all together.

I do not know how much I can share, but maps hosted by one person are all already eligible for matches. Likewise, there are no issues for maps posted under the public domain or other viable way. For any other, map owners will likely be contacted individually, if found valuable.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:20 pm
by kierra
Players will learn about this through several avenues already in place.

Bertman has put up a server at bmbz.freemyip.com:5198 to test the viability of timed fm on super flag maps.
  • In place are several super flag maps including: BoxyWars, CastleWarfare, CrossAssault, Gloom, Space Invaders with the promise of more to come.
  • /maplist gives the maps that are available
  • /mapchange <mapname> Will load the map selected
  • timed matches, 15/20/30 min fun matches(fm) possible. command is /timelimit <#>
  • To start a fm: /countdown This gives you 10 sec to the start of fm. /countdown 20 gives you 20 seconds. You get the idea :)
  • /gameover On the rare occasion that you need to end a fm before the alloted time.
Please check out the server. If you have any suggestions for additional maps you'd like to see loaded, pm Bertman on forums or on discord.
Any questions or concerns, contact Bertman, tainn or myself.

Thank you, tainn for bringing this topic to discussion.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:50 pm
by mathiaz
It s a good idea to add map for league match.

I notice a bug with zone flag. Sometimes, flags just drop where player let it, and does nt return to the zone flag. It s a random event ...

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:28 pm
by tainn
mathiaz wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:50 pm
It s a good idea to add map for league match.

I notice a bug with zone flag. Sometimes, flags just drop where player let it, and does nt return to the zone flag. It s a random event ...
Perhaps a bit unrelated to the thread, but which map are you referring to, mathiaz?

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:16 am
by Zehra
Flag resetting and actions on drop vary on quite a few factors, such as unsafe objects, '_maxFlagGrabs' variable, plug-ins, map design...etc
Without details on the map and configurations used, it is difficult for anyone to know what may be causing the issue.

-Zehra

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:28 pm
by Gollum
One thought... coming from someone who made a laser map.
The design, amount of, and length of shots would need to be heavily tested and get feedback before entering a league format.

Going off of lasermania would be a good idea for a template, or if okay by the current host or maker if person is still an active bz member.
There can just be a lot of hiccups with Laser focused maps, and some major spawn camp issues, etc. you almost have to block off the base area after a flag capture, or have a plug in to stop lasers from killing "x" time after a respawn.

I see great potential, and I myself love laser sniping maps, where skill on zoom and positioning is key. I also just know it can become a toxic and rage area as well.

Thoughts?

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:35 pm
by tainn
Some of the flagged maps can already have matches played on, they aren't necessarily laser sniping maps.

I don't see any issue with potential camping or spawn killing. As long as the map is symmetrical and both teams start off with the same conditions, everything else can be utilized as a strategy. Another thing to note is that camping usually does not contribute that greatly towards the team aspect, though that in itself could turn into a long debate.

I have played quite often on your Fog of War, camping is not a powerful aspect there.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:41 pm
by mathiaz
About my zone flag bug i open a post here

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=20171

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:41 pm
by Gollum
tainn wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:35 pm
Some of the flagged maps can already have matches played on, they aren't necessarily laser sniping maps.

I don't see any issue with potential camping or spawn killing. As long as the map is symmetrical and both teams start off with the same conditions, everything else can be utilized as a strategy. Another thing to note is that camping usually does not contribute that greatly towards the team aspect, though that in itself could turn into a long debate.

I have played quite often on your Fog of War, camping is not a powerful aspect there.
I designed "Fog of War" to eliminate that exact issue. The blocks in river, and the pyras that cover the mid area on sides are all specific to the idea of negating campers. As well as the base is drivethru, but you cant shoot into it. The huts are made to remove perma sniping from mid area into base.
Everything on that map was and is useful for removing any camping potential. Even GM's aren't safe to camp to long, and they have a max amount of shots and length. So yes, its a "sniping" map. But it is made with a lot of thought put into how and when people can snipe. I even went as far as... Nothing is the same height as far as top platforms. The middle ramp abover river is safe for a time. But with SW and the new update R3lax did to being able to jump from underneath onto it, that even is hard. My point being, a lot needs to go into consideration for the player even in a FFA style map. So it feels good to play. You need that x10 if it is going competitive.

Spawn killing in a league match is different than spawn killing on a FFA in my mind. If someone spawn camps me in Duc or in HIX and then passes my flag mid after camping me. That is a feels bad. Now imagine 2 people camping from a distance with laser while one takes your flag. You cant do anything about it. And that can quickly become an unfair match, and inflate a teams stats cause they used what... yes was available and the techincal point of the map. But creates tension and a lack of interest on the other teams behalf.

I just see some major arguments or rages coming along, from past experience in the league(s). And thats without a super flag that can spawn kill you from across the map :rip:

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:53 pm
by kierra
Too automatically assume that this will be part of the league is to majorly jump the gun.
The timed ctf on super flag maps concept is being tested on Bertman's bmbz server port 5198 and an event is planned.
It behooves players to read their forum pms....snooze, you lose opportunities for fun.
cheers

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:57 pm
by tainn
Excuse me, but I still don't see your point. If one person took your team flag and two of his teammates successfully negated your attempt to retrieve the flag, that means that their coordination and teamwork was good while yours wasn't. That is the essence of CTF, you can't do everything alone.

Also, I don't know of any CTF map where laser campers would be an issue to handle. Stealth and cloaking flags are usually present on such maps, and quick breakthroughs are possible. But yeah, of course, all maps first receive testing of different aspects before any sort of decision is made.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:01 pm
by Gollum
tainn wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:57 pm
Excuse me, but I still don't see your point. If one person took your team flag and two of his teammates successfully negated your attempt to retrieve the flag, that means that their coordination and teamwork was good while yours wasn't. That is the essence of CTF, you can't do everything alone.
I am talking on respawn after a cap. Skill has nothing to do with it. If my team caps and is camping your spawn. No skill needed for that or coordination. And no need to be snarky.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:17 pm
by tainn
Apologies, I didn't mean to come off as snarky.

Then again, I still don't see an issue. Spawn kills such as that are present on almost every leagues map already and are a part of the tactics, most notably on ducati.

Utilizing such a tactic also has its own drawbacks. First off, it means that the person who capped didn't have teammates at his side at the time of running and capping, so the teammates didn't offer cover, which is usually a pretty risky thing to do. Second off, when such a person takes the flag again after spawn killing, he is separated from him teammate(s) and is usually easy to kill off in a team.

In other words, what you are describing here is a run and gun strategy that is offensively the most aggressive, and has its pros as well as cons. I see nothing wrong with it.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:20 pm
by Gollum
This is where the map comes into play tho. Take hix for example. If there are levels to jump around on like HIX, that is a bad map. My team camps top, kills everyone, I am free to run top side with no interference. That was my orig. point. If the map is not made and has plug ins or whatever is needed to confront these issues, it can be majorly one sided. Now if its all on one level of play, then I agree with you.

Re: Sniping League

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:25 pm
by tainn
You are assuming that one person will be able to cap while the whole enemy team is hunting them and that the teammates won't help this person, which is highly unlikely. The cap will likely fail in such a scenario already.

And let's assume the person succeeds in capping. The entire team is then spawn killed. So, what now? The team only spawns on the base the first time after a cap, every other time they are spawned randomly in a team zone that should always be big and complex enough that one camper can't cover it all. This is where testing comes to play.

A spawn kill produces nothing but buys a few moments of time, usually not relevant enough. It is especially not relevant because the respawn is usually away from own base, meaning that in the path where the enemy will run the flag. They can be engaged in combat there.