Official Matches and lag (gag :) )

[KRR]

Interested in opinions and input on this topic: What is the generally accepted protocol for cancelling an Official Match in-progress when an active player has excessive lag? Is there one? Should there be some maximum number assigned to Official Match lagstats? Is this solely the call of the ref? If a team feels that lag is too excessive, can they cancel without a forfeit? How should they raise their concerns in mid-match?

I think this is an issue which should be addressed by the community so that there is an understanding by all involved. I raise the point based on my experiences, and also of other players who I have talked to that found themselves in similar situations. Because there is no way to "Pause" the clock during match play, wouldn't it be best to have a general understanding in place prior to match time? (Sub-question - would it be hard to put a "Pause" function into the bzfs countdown code?)

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This situation happened last night, as referenced in another post by chikorita:

the time was 1:00am ... an your team lost

As SGI says - "Ehi!"

We lost by *1* point, and I think that again your lag was very much a contributing factor (it went from about the same as Ramsteins (230ms +/-) to up over ***1200ms***, fluctuating up and down, and you lost packets). Ramsteins lag remained consistent throughout the match. This was similar to the last 2 matches, which both were cancelled due to the same factor. A consistent lag can be accounted for and adapted to, but lag to the point that you were having is almost akin to having a third teammate.

Please note that I'm not saying that you guys aren't good players - but I've learned that I would caution my team, or any other, against playing a match against any team which had a player who was exhibiting the lag characteristics which you had last night. I have stopped a match against you for this reason, but last night I decided to let it ride. That was a bad decision - I don't think that the match was a true measure of your team ability against ours, because of the lag involved. I should have called a halt to it the second or third time that I saw bullets go through you to no effect. I have seen this only one other time against any other team (it was HoW in that instance).

if my teammates said no , it was for a good reason ...

Hehe! That's funny! The fact is that we - Spiff and I - were willing, *wanted very much* to match you again - and, now, I can't help but think that the reason that you two wouldn't play us was based on fear of losing. Why? The only factor mentioned as a reason *not* to match (time/lateness) proved not to be a factor at all - you were both on long enough to have played another match against us. Perhaps fear of losing is a good reason... (And, yes, I am provoking you into the next BzR vs USD match!)

So I throw the gauntlet down - the next match of BzR/USD will be you and learner (BzR) versus Spiff and me (USD). We look forward to thoroughly trouncing you...

[ski]

well, the prob is that if a team, particularly one that is losing, complains about lag, the subject of whining and cheating will come up. Luckily, this hasnt been a prob with any of the matches ive been involved with but I can see the issue. I would say, in my opinion, anything over 300ms consistantly would be cause for nulling a match. HOWEVER, I think that it should be a call made from a ref..

[Guest]

i know from my playing "experience" using different connections and the like........dual modem, lag varies greatly..........dsl, non-symetric, lag usually stays consistent, but does go out there every now and again...............cable, usually consistent within a period of an hour or so..............symetric dsl, very steady................

so if during a half hour match, you vary 2-3 times, thats ok..........but if during a match you vary 4-10 times.......then you have to wonder.........also, the number of players would have to add into that...........a two men match, lag of a single individual has a greater impact then a 5 person match...........and so on, and so on......

[bamf.]

There haven't been any hard fast rules on this. Both teams should talk prior to the start of a match and work out solutions for possible lag scenarios (among other things).

You should test everyone’s lag prior to a match, we usually float around with the other team for 5 or so minutes before starting match. This is usually enough for testing, if the player is laggy, it will show here. If it happens during match, chances are it will be a brief spell.

This is also a good reason to have a standby player in case of lag spikes, it's no ones fault their connection may spike, it happens to everyone and at any given moment. We usually try to have someone on standby for this very reason (in addition to achem.."work".. Interruptions).

Also, if you're playing a 3 on 3 match, a player's lag spikes, you can reduce match to 2 on 2 and finish it out.

If you don't work out the details prior to a match, frustrations and accusations will surely follow.

bamf.

[Guest]

Hehe! That's funny! :D The fact is that we - Spiff and I - were willing, *wanted very much* to match you again - and, now, I can't help but think that the reason that you two wouldn't play us was based on fear of losing. Why? The only factor mentioned as a reason *not* to match (time/lateness) proved not to be a factor at all - you were both on long enough to have played another match against us. Perhaps fear of losing is a good reason... :shock: :) (And, yes, I am provoking you into the next BzR vs USD match!)

So I throw the gauntlet down - the next match of BzR/USD will be you and learner (BzR) versus Spiff and me (USD). We look forward to thoroughly trouncing you... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

KR ...first of all it was getting late ...2am crazee late...and yes wee prolly were tired after jus playin a match wif yall . wee hung around after the match jus to chill out an chat . the world is not going to end tomorrow ... there are plenty of chances for us to play again ...an i happily accept ur challenge :)

u kno , i made a promise that i would not play against my ex-teamies in a match . but suMoNe taunted mee into doing it , by calling my team a "chicken" . so yea i am alil ashamed of meeself , an should have jus ignored him .
:(

[Dervish]

Well, I wasn't there for the match, so I don't know how the game went. Congrats to the BZRebels.

My 2 cents on Lag:

Lag is just an annoyance in a public FFA server, but it becomes a matter of more importance in a recorded, official CTF match.

/lagstats is only good for finding lag for a player's connection. Anything below 200 is good for CTF, andything above makes it a bit difficult.

/lagstats is about worthless for determining local lag. If someone decides to download files, stream MP3s, or has a slow PC, video card, or lots of things running in memory, this makes their tank "jitter" on the screen. This means that aiming at their tank is extremely difficult and that makes a world of difference in CTF where you only have 2 shots and no flag or jumping.

When Spiff and I battled BiP (Bananas in Pajamas), the team was very good and it was a tough match. It soon became an impossible match because Skipp was lagging (local lag and connection lag). On the other hand, his teammate was fine. We canceled the match when we realized we just couldn't hit him except by accident.

So, it's still just a game, but if someone won with the help of lag, please don't boast about it.

Otherwise, I'm sure we'll see you on the field again. Have fun!

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think that from now on.... USD doesn't play with people who are laggy. That'd be a wise solution.

[Dervish]

Well, I know I learned this from the match with BiP. If players are laggy (and we should be looking for this), then we can just cancel the match before it gets too far.

I wouldn't want to play a CTF match with any laggy tanks. Who would?

[Guest]

i think what is trying to be determined here, is what constitutes a laggy player.............else we end up in these flame post sessions.

so from here out we should post:

what (IYHO) constitutes a laggy player?


mine are as follows
a) /lagstats shows lag greater than 250ms(300 is common, but 250 is my tolerance)
b) /lagstats shows # of lost packets greater than 10
c) /lagstats shows a wide variance over a small period of time ie, 50ms/5 minutes of gameplay
d) frequent NR

[Spaceman Spiff]

Well..... sometimes the server does it too. Like when we lost to HoW last time...... lagstats were low... but it was VERY jumpy. Games like that should be canned within the first ten minutes. Of course, in that case, I tried to do that..... and they just refused and kept playing.

[Dervish]

Bagheera,

Remember that /lagstats does not represent local lag (ie: slow PC with low framrates). This is a fact, not my opinion. A client with low framerates will cause lag that will show "jittery" movements (especially jumping and changing direction quickly) to other players.

As far as lagstats goes, I think anything above 200ms for CTf is lagged and anything about 350ms for FFA is lagged. This part is my honest opinion, because /lagstats is just an average sampling, and does not show maximum or minimum lag.

I currently work for There.com, and our product has some lag problems we are currently trying to tweak. Our lag is currently worse than BZFlag's lag because we have more data to send over a connection. We are tweaking that data down in size, but at least we don't have to worry about accuracy as you do in BZFlag.

[Guest]

sounds like you'all need a ref to make the final decision.

[Dervish]

Yeah, noticing the lag and the dynamics of lag are two different thing. The first is subjective and the latter is a science.

I'd be happy to help judge (as Chikorita does) when some team battles another in CTF, just as long as it's not my team because I'd be biased.

[Guest]

yep, its all a bit subjective, but if /lagstats reports something over 250ms, they are lagged..........its rare to see that type of lag and have it not impact a game.................and if /lagstats reports something under 100ms, everything is pretty solid...............but to leave the decision open to subjective opinion is leading to the flame posts that are migrating there way around.


if you want things to be fair more often, even with laggers, i suggest you bump the number of shots up.........its not a cure all , but it is a nice fix.


and dukot....you suck.

[DTRemenak]

I don't like the numbers being thrown around here...

My lag is usually between 250 and 350 ms, does that mean I can't play?

When it's really bad I opt out, but if anyone over 200ms is laggy, I'm never not...

Playing against ppl with mediocre lags (200-400ms) isn't really tough, you just have to remember to compensate. And yes I know, I've played on (stable) cable connections against people on dialup.

As for what to do when somebody's too laggy...I remember one instance when Spiff just told me to pause and took the other team 1v2...tho this won't work for real close matches. If there are other teammates around, they can sub in. But something has to be said first. If nobody complains about the lag until AFTER the match, it's their tough luck.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Well....... sure...... if we all lagged that much. But since I usually run 50-100ms.... it's tough to hit people who lag 200-400.

[DTRemenak]

I've played you in practices and you didn't seem to have any trouble at all hitting me

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quite true..... but your moves are fairly predictable (no offense). When it's someone like Chik, who can maneuver well (even worse with someone like Skipp).... it can be VERY difficult/annoying.

[bamf.]

As someone who's been playing ctf league games since the dawn of http://www.bzflag.org/league I might be able to offer a bit of advice (take it or toss it, no matter). Like my original post stated; work out the details before you play, run around a bit with the other team, if it looks OK, go with the match. If you don't like what you see in that "trial" period, cancel the match, no hard feelings. But, if you agree to play, stick with it. Cries of lag from the team that may be behind in points at the moment could be taken as poor sportsmanship. If you take a little extra time to feel each other out prior to playing, everyone should be happy.
Remember guys/gals, this is a game, it's a hell of alot of fun to play, and should be played soley for that reason. If you agree to a match and lose, so be it...You can always play again and avenge yourselves!!

Later amigos/as

[megachirops]

If you agree to a match and lose, so be it...You can always play again and avenge yourselves!!

I agree with this. Teams can always do the 'trial period" before a match to guage lag, etc... But complaining about lag during a match can make things complicated. Perhaps we should all try to undertake this 'trial period'...

[Dervish]

Good advice, bamf.

[Dervish]

and dukot....you suck.

Why the negative comments about me? That's not at all friendly, even if you put a smiley after it.

[Guest]

lol........

[Chestal]

My advice would be the same as bamf's. Play a warmup and check if the lsag is ok for everyone. Once the match is started it should only be cancelled when something severe happens. What is severe enough lies in the eye of the beholder, of course. Rarely, extreme lag occurs in mid-game. It's then up to the teams to handle that. A neutral ref might be helpful in that situation.

Some people are well-known for their lag, one good example is Skipp (no offense, hope you get your cable soon). I always had a hard time adjusting when I played against him, but as I knew that before the match (and was so during warm-up), it was my, resp. my team's choice to still play.

We would all be happier without lag, but for now it is as it is and we have tryto deal with it as good as we can. The most important thing is to talk with the other team, act in a fair manner and try to be a good loser (not that it's always easy .

[SGI]

The Master wrote:

We would all be happier without lag, but for now it is as it is and we have tryto deal with it as good as we can. The most important thing is to talk with the other team,

act in a fair manner and try to be a good loser (not that it's always easy)

I love the good loser with good manners