Tournaments for money. Get in on it.

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Would you participate?

Yes
5
21%
No
17
71%
I would host
2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

[hm]-rkamens
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Tournaments for money. Get in on it.

Post by [hm]-rkamens » Tue May 23, 2006 11:14 pm

I was wondering if anybody would be interested in participating in or helping with a series of bzflag tournaments with real cash prizes. I figure each member will pay an entry fee of $10. Then the winner will get 80% of the entry fees, the host will get %10 and the competition will get 10% so that we can keep having new ones. For instance, if we have a competition with 50 players, that will be $400 for the winner, $50 for the host (of the server), and $50 to pay for future competitions. I'm thinking we could do all sorts of comps. once the demand is enough for one. We can start with simple ctf and ffa. Is anybody interested in helping me start this is joining the competition?
[HM]-Rkamens

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Sir Lance-A-Lot
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Post by Sir Lance-A-Lot » Tue May 23, 2006 11:29 pm

I don't like the idea at all - >Anything< can happen when people scrapple over money online.

There are so many cheaters and modd'ers that a cash prize could create utter havoc.

I doubt you will have much interest, because:

1) You have no rep in the forum [ no offence ]
2) Possible cheating/patches
3) Fighting
4) Dis-organization [ not a fact, but very well possible ]

BZFlag is meant to be fun - when it comes to playing for keeps, all the fun disapears and morphs into a "life/death" grabble for the prize.
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[hm]-rkamens
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Post by [hm]-rkamens » Wed May 24, 2006 2:10 am

I'm disappointed that bzflag doesn't have tournaments for money like more popular games such as unreal tourn. and cs do. I think with a set and established rulebook and ways to deal with cheaters, it shouldn't be a problem. I think we should only give spawn permissions to those who have registered (registration will probably end a week before the event.) That way, any cheaters will bee dealt with and the game can continue on smoothly (And perhaps game restarts should be given when hacks are used). There's always a chance that there are too many people or a few persistent people that insist on ruining the game for everybody, in which case we won't host any more tournaments and all the money will be refunded (If they DDoS us for instance). Even if you don't trust me (I don't blame you for it, seeing as I am kind of new here), it's a maximum $10 loss. I personally don't think playing for money ruins the fun, it's just like a different map or game variant that's more close-to-home than regular games. In addition, you are only losing $10 so anybody who fights over their $10 is just being petty and cheap. If there continue to be disputes about money from a single person of group, then they will all be banned from the tournament.

I think that addresses all your concerns except for dis-organization. Perhaps if we were to involve some more senior members, it would be more reputable and organized?
Any comments are appreciated,
[hm]-rkamens

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The Red Baron
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Post by The Red Baron » Wed May 24, 2006 2:50 am

sir lance alot raises the most valid point. Who are you?

but also, the code base isn't the most stable and preventative against cheats. If you had a lan game, and hosted a tournament, that would be feasible. But a WAN? Until there is better cheat detection... I don't see many people springing for it.
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was tried once, and never took off

Post by lunch » Wed May 24, 2006 3:17 am

I don't remember the specifics, but a well known bzflag player, server host, etc, that went by the name Kernel Panic IRC tried to start something just like this yrs ago. I believe the main prize was going to be a top-end graphics card.

If you take some time and search thru the archives here, you should find some posts that may lend some light as to how it never came to be. If the the person who originally started this web site is still around, Fiberchunks, he may be able to shed some light on that deal as well. Not too sure if any of the current main admins of this site were around back then or not - but they might chime in (maybe?) with something from then too.

I have to side with sir lance alot and red baron - although my "popularity" here isn't the greatest (nor do I care) - it would help to know who you are and make yourself known before trying this.

just my 0.02 cents worth
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(edited KP's callsign spelling)

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Post by [dmp] » Wed May 24, 2006 7:49 am

The problem isnt how to deal with cheaters. Its just very hard to detect them. The server trusths the client way too much and alot of calculations are done at each client - and the server belives the data coming from clients is good. And as BZFlag is opensource, anyone can with little effort change these calculation.

An example: If I change how my client calculates when a bullets hits me or not, i would look good. Anything else looks odds is likely to be blamed on lag. How would you see the difference between cheat and lag?

Most of these problems can be solved - but someone needs to implement it which isnt a simple task.

And on top of that, many there are many accusations of who is cheating. floating in some parts of the community. Alot of players dont trust eachohter - and I would belive that money only would make it into a admining nightmare.
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Post by MonsterMan++ » Wed May 24, 2006 8:36 am

It's not avery good idea for many easons including Sit Lance's reasons. People would play dirty :gross: and the whole thing would be a mistake really so I suggest if you want to do iit yourself DON'T DO IT AT ALL!! :evil: :evil:
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Post by joevano » Wed May 24, 2006 9:53 am

[hm]-rkamens wrote:I think with a set and established rulebook and ways to deal with cheaters, it shouldn't be a problem. That way, any cheaters will bee dealt with and the game can continue on smoothly (And perhaps game restarts should be given when hacks are used). There's always a chance that there are too many people or a few persistent people that insist on ruining the game for everybody, in which case we won't host any more tournaments and all the money will be refunded (If they DDoS us for instance). Even if you don't trust me (I don't blame you for it, seeing as I am kind of new here), it's a maximum $10 loss.
Oh. :lol-old: :lol-old: :lol-old: :lol-old: (sorry for all the laughing) You think you can spot the cheats? It can take weeks to confirm that someone is using a subtle cheat, and many are never detected.

And the taking your money and running is the more likely scenario... don't do this.

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Post by The Red Baron » Wed May 24, 2006 12:04 pm

My advice would be this - See if you have enough bzflag players in your vicinity, and host a lan party/tournament - for money if you want.

That way you have better access and control over the clients. When players register for the tournament, find out what OS they have, Do what it takes to make sure they have a clean client. My advice would be mandating a fresh install from source - At the tournament.
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Post by [hm]-rkamens » Wed May 24, 2006 12:30 pm

For those who want to know who I am, there isn't much to say. I started playing about a month ago and currently admin on z[h]ero's server. In light of not knowing who has cheated and who hasn't, perhaps a lan party is the best solution. Is there anybody in Colorado ready to join this? As for making sure the source isn't modified, we could distribute a binary-compiled-from-source with a random number at the end of the client name at the start of the tournament. People would have 5 minutes to install and log back in, at which point we could verify that they all had that number at the end. For instance, while a person might join as:
BzFlag-Win32-Build 9827
We would require them to join as:
BzFlag-Win32-Built 9827 [Tourney Key A7H618]
Since they were joining using an installed binary, it would take them too long to edit the source, recompile, and then test it. Does that sound like a plausable solution?

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Post by joevano » Wed May 24, 2006 1:21 pm

[hm]-rkamens wrote:As for making sure the source isn't modified, we could distribute a binary-compiled-from-source with a random number at the end of the client name at the start of the tournament. People would have 5 minutes to install and log back in, at which point we could verify that they all had that number at the end. For instance, while a person might join as:
BzFlag-Win32-Build 9827
We would require them to join as:
BzFlag-Win32-Built 9827 [Tourney Key A7H618]
Since they were joining using an installed binary, it would take them too long to edit the source, recompile, and then test it. Does that sound like a plausable solution?
That is a plausable work around if you wanted to limit your tourney to windows clients, and someone wasn't already set up to compile in windows. But editing the source isn't that hard and compiling once you have it set up is just running a script. It's really easy to modify the client query string to say anything you like.

Now if add macs and all of the flavors of Linux out there to the mix, you would never be able to have binaries for all of the different systems that are guaranteed to work.

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Post by goblin » Wed May 24, 2006 8:25 pm

[hm]-rkamens wrote:Does that sound like a plausable solution?
I've read a few posts about cheating, and it's my impression that it's possible because of a flaw in the design of BZFlag; clients are the information source for too many elements in the game.
For example, a client reports if the tank in that client was hit by a bullet.
Not good.
The client should tell the server what movement actions are performed to move a tank and when it shoots, and the server should then calculate whether the bullet hits a tank or not.

That's just one example.

Ideally, the client would only report the actions performed with the tank (driving or not, in which direction, turning, shooting, jumping) and the server then calculates an distributes an opdated information sheet about the state of the game to the client, where an image of that information is rendered to the player.

I guess BZFlag hasn't been constructed that way due to performance and bandwidth issues.
Tank you!

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Post by JeffM » Wed May 24, 2006 9:04 pm

bzflag was constructed that way because it was made 13 years ago as a LAN game before the internet was in large use. it has nothing to do with performance or bandwith ( both of which we sort of suck at ).
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Post by goblin » Wed May 24, 2006 9:42 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:bzflag was constructed that way because it was made 13 years ago as a LAN game before the internet was in large use. it has nothing to do with performance or bandwith ( both of which we sort of suck at ).
So, in your opinion, it would be possible to design and build BZFlag with a maximum degree of server-side calculations and distribution of game state data, thus ruling out most of the types of cheating we see today (given enough skilled coders, coke and pizza of course)?
Tank you!

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Post by [hm]-rkamens » Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 pm

It would, but I don't think it's needed. Perhaps somebody needs to get a punkbuster-clone for bzflag going.

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Post by Homer23 » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:30 pm

I would but no cash prizes.
Cheers

-H23-

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