suicide as a tactic in matches

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Is suicide in CTF matches a valid tactic?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:25 pm

sure - it's clever
12
43%
it is acceptable albeit without honor
13
46%
nah, it's cheating and should be forbidden
3
11%
 
Total votes: 28

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Chestal
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suicide as a tactic in matches

Post by Chestal » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:25 pm

Especially in 2 vs 2 CTF matches there are some situations where players believe it is advantageous to kill themselves. One typical situation is that a player hides his own flag in a corner and then kills himself to respawn elsewhere and hopefully rejoin the action faster. This has been used by several teams during matches in the past.

Recently, there has been some debate whether this is fair or should be disallowed or at least be discouraged. What do you think (see poll above).

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Post by sn0w_m0nkey » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:37 pm

hehe...i voted the middle selection. BECAUSE, i am guilty of this move waaaaaay back in the time when i used to play league CTF matches. no rules on this tactic, so its clearly something allowed until dev's address it eh?

sm
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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:43 pm

i've done also. better take a point from yourself then give to someone else is mytheory sometimes. I find it a mute point however to make a mountain over a mole about it. don't bother. People already have trouble with heated discussions. aka arguments.
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Post by bamf. » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:48 pm

I feel kind of stupid. I only noticed this about a week ago watching a match. For as long as I've been playing my mushy brain never thought of this. I think it's clever.
It's a good idea to always carry two sacks of something when you walk around. That way, if anybody says: Hey, can you give me a hand? You can say: Sorry, got these sacks.

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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:55 pm

bamf, my brain is way ahead of you in the race to go mushy.
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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:59 pm

I voted "it is acceptable albeit without honor." I've seen people kill themselves when they "hide" the flag. But killing yourself repeatedly during a match is sort of rude. It gives you a nervous edge on the other team because they're never sure where you'll turn up.

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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:23 pm

gotta love a nervous edge. it is what makes life exciting! would you continue to play bzflag if it was boring? I don't think i would.
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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:25 pm

Nah, but at the risk of sounding sissified, this may be unfair with some less experienced players. I can imagine that it would be frusterating for some. It really annoys me more than anything.

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Post by MortimeR » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:46 pm

I do it sometimes when i drop the flag on the corner. You get faster to the middle of the map.
But killing yourself repeatedly during a match is sort of rude. It gives you a nervous edge on the other team because they're never sure where you'll turn up.
What is the advantage of killing you all the time? If i am going to catch
the enemy flag i dont mind where he is if he is not killing me (or catching my flag).
I am as nervous with where is to respawn him as when me teamate kills someone.

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Post by KRR » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:20 pm

Can we add a 4th way to vote? "It's a possible tactic, but a risky one" :)

I don't think it's "without honor" or "cheating", because anyone can do it (ie: it's not like making your tank skinny or using speed cheats - that's dishonor), but, having tried it, I don't think it's "clever", either. I did think that the first time I saw it, but then I tried it. It's more of a gamble - you may spawn closer to the action, but chances are greater that you will have a not-as-good spawn, I think. Interesting question, Chestal. Will be neat to see how it plays out.
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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:23 pm

spiff, i believe your spiritual gift is mercy.

There is no such thing as being unfair to a inexperienced player. How else are they going to learn unless you take time aside on a lone server and teach them the basics. Ever heard of the saying "experience is the best teacher"? Your responsibility is not the spokesman of the unlearned. They will learn the tricks fast. Believe me, I've seen you learn the tricks fast. To be fair is to give the newbies equal chance. You would have to dumb yourself down and allow them to kill you, and still they wouldn't learn. now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying bash the newbies. But do not create an "affirmative action" for them. that doesn't work. I've been in observer mode to learn dodging technics. I watched bzgirl for days to learn the 'S' dodge. From Zig, i learned the tank dance, from BAMF i learned rico. If newbies want to learn, they will. don't create "affirmative action" for them. It won't work.
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Post by Grumbler » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:29 pm

hmmm. some of these arguments are interesting. does that imply that those who rejoin the server to get position on their base are "not cheating" because it is allowed. i spent last night camping near a base where my team flag was carried(until i got laser). The reason, the other team kept respawning to get a quick path back to our flag. He died every time, but it didnt feel right. with this topic, i need another choice. something like, legal, risky, almost impossible to control until we get better spawn capabilities. it is certainly better than rejoining on my scale.
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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Fri Aug 08, 2003 6:51 pm

So I'm nice to newbies...... I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not saying "let them win"... just be considerate of them. Sometimes people get discouraged when you beat them too much... so let them kill you a few times. Confidence helps to make a better player.

If nouthing else... killing yourself to respawn is annoying. In my opinion it is also stupid. LoL

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Post by sn0w_m0nkey » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:56 pm

getting back to chestals post:

once this worked for me in an official match. our flag was on its way to the opponents base, so i killed myself pretty far across the field. the spawn placed me close enough to make the shot and stop the score. so another example of suicide + spawn....

why don't any of you CTF'ers come and play on ducati 5155? its good practice you know? same 2 shot style, maybe some flags but they could be "flag up" removed right?

sm
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Post by teatree » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:43 pm

Well in my opinion im not really sure ...
I tried it once in a few matches but in my opinion its silly ...
I mean it can of course with a lucky spawn be helpfull
But it my opinion it should be "seen as cheating"
I think playing it how you should play it is fair for both teams ...
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Post by [dmp] » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:29 pm

I voted yes as i do it alot. Have done it for a long time. Mostly when hiding the flag or as a panic solution if the enemy team is almost captured the flag, and i'm at base. Its a chance you take, you might spawn in a good spot, but chances are that the time you wait to respawn and the respawn location are bad can sometimes make it a bad choice.

However, if people dont like it, i'll change this. But I dont think it have ever decided the outcome of a battle.
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Post by Legolas » Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:19 am

I use it only at crucial times.

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Post by Burned Account -CNG- » Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:52 am

i always do it,
actually u seem to spawn near ur teammate more then near ur flag.
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Post by megachirops » Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:16 am

I have never used it.. Tho i now may experiment with it..
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Post by CapN » Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:03 am

Well.....I have to plead stupidity along with BAMF. I cant believe I have never thought of that or noticed it!

Sounds kinda cheap but it would be the luck of the draw as far as your spawn goes....sooo....probably makes sense to try if your desperate.

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Not fair

Post by david_v » Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:57 pm

I would like to add my 2c.

First of all, it doesn't matter if it's "clever" or not. Clever things can be nasty too.

Anyway, I think the use of such methods might give you an unfair positional advantage comparable with rejoining a game for similar results. We all hate the latter, right?

Think about it. Is popping into the midst of the level and (supposedly) taking someone by surprise more fair than rejoining to avoid being killed? This could apply to skilled players as well.

Personally I have never used this tactic and never will for these reasons.

Dave

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Post by bamf. » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:39 pm

I think the comparison to a player rejoining a game might be a bit extreme, I have never witnessed a player rejoining during a match.
I haven't used the "suicide" technique yet, but could be persuaded to under the right circumstances.
It really is a 50/50 shot, your respawn could place you in a worse area than you already were prior to suicide, not to mention the 5 or so seconds you lose while respawning and getting re-oriented with your position/direction on the map

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Post by david_v » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:18 pm

Bamf,

I'm afraid you're missing my point. Be around on Ducati 5156 for a while and you'll see what I'm talking about. Just because people don't apply that (rejoining) on 59999 doesn't mean suiciding for respawn is more fair. I don't see any problems with the comparison I made, considering that the rejoin technique can give certain advantage on 59999 as well. I think people don't do it because they know the rules, in case you were implying otherwise.

As for your statistical guess, I don't find that number important. The times you get an advantage from this technique, it is really frustrating for the other player(s), who could at some points have little or no chance for finding a way out. Even Spiff dislikes it.

Dave

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Post by KRR » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:54 pm

My experience is that it fails to produce a desired result probably 60-75% of the time. Granted, I haven't used it as much as [dmp] has :) , but I quit using it in matches because it failed far more often than not, and by failing can leave you in an even *worse* position than you could have gotten yourself into otherwise. Along with the 4-5 seconds you lose prior to coming back (along with the orientation upon respawn), it just doesn't seem to be worth it.
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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:22 pm

I have to agree with David_V on this one. I don't think it's a direct violation of gameplay rules because it is random. However, this can be very unfair. I can't count how many times I've been playing against someone and they used this "suicide" method to their advantage. Sometimes they will even spawn behind you or next to you.... and in my opinion, this is cheating. So the chances are 50/50... so what? That just means that there's a 50% chance that it could provide un unfair advantage... and that doesn't really appeal to me.
Both teams should have the same chances in matches, and that means that killing yourself to spawn in a better place gives on team an 50% chance of an advantage over the other. I don't really care if it's a gamble or not... it still has the potential to be unfair.

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