suicide as a tactic in matches

Discussions about the various leagues

Is suicide in CTF matches a valid tactic?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:25 pm

sure - it's clever
12
43%
it is acceptable albeit without honor
13
46%
nah, it's cheating and should be forbidden
3
11%
 
Total votes: 28

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Post by [dmp] » Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:13 pm

The difference between suicide and rejoining is that
1) You dont wait 5 second (while your normally airborne)
2) You know where to start (at base)

So I dont think you can compare suicides and rejoining directly. Suicides gives your a penalty, rejoins dont: Thats why i consider rejoining very annoying and very impolite.

And to clarify (and i hope those who have been observing me agree) that I mostly only commit suicide when after i place the flag. Sometimes is saves me some transport-time, other not. I have even had the situation turned around on me, where the enemy had easy access to our flag, because i commit suicided. Its for sure, that i dont know where i'll respawn, and its for sure that i lose 5 sec.

All respawns might be a respawn that gives you a benefit (like popping up close to the flag, or behind an enemy). All respawn migth be a bad one (wrong end of the field, in front of a shot). If you're killed by a enemy shot or by your own show wont change your respawn position.

I have no stats on how many kills is commited each battle. But my guess is that intented suicides is minimal. I think i normally do it (avg) each time our flag is capture. So i doubt its a problem, its more a matter of feelings. I could mention other problems that is more important.

I seriously doubt that these suicides changes the outcome of a battle, so actually, im im abit surprised by the feelings expressed here. Nobody never mentioned it to me (that my behaviour is a problem for them). And I think most people didnt really notice it.

If suicide+respawn = cheating? Thats hard for me to agree on. Because it might give you a better position? Positioning is done by the respawn code, so, to take this to an extreme, a bad player actually gets an average over the normal play, as he might too respawn in a better position. If the game comes down to respawn positions I would suggest that respawn code always put you at base (or anohter fixed position).

However I dont think this is the case. Battles depends on the skill of the teams. Yes, ofcause you might get lucky and get a point. Or even win a match. But there is alot of factors to. (People having a bad day, bad connection, misunderstanding, player-switches ... )

But it might be good then, that I decided not to play any official matches for the time beeing.
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Post by Shadow Warrior! » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:59 pm

i like to kill others not myself. :sniper:

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Post by megachirops » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:12 pm

I think Tycho has the best argument yet :)
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Post by bamf. » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:43 pm

FYI: I haven't used this tactic, I just recently became aware of it, but under the right circumstances, possibly would.
david_v wrote: I'm afraid you're missing my point. Be around on Ducati 5156 for a while and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I’ve been playing on Ducati since it’s debut as Harley, and have been playing league matches since they began. I don’t think I’m missing your point, I simply disagree with it.
david_v wrote: Just because people don't apply that (rejoining) on 59999 doesn't mean suiciding for respawn is more fair. I don't see any problems with the comparison I made, considering that the rejoin technique can give certain advantage on 59999 as well.
Rejoining during a match places your tank in the same exact spot, each and every time. Quite the opposite from respawning due to suicide, it’s random where you will end up.
david_v wrote: I think people don't do it because they know the rules, in case you were implying otherwise.
There are no rules on this. Last time I checked the forum, this was an opinion poll on the subject.
david_v wrote: As for your statistical guess, I don't find that number important. The times you get an advantage from this technique, it is really frustrating for the other player(s), who could at some points have little or no chance for finding a way out.
Guess? How is that a guess? Next time you get shot by a tank or shoot yourself, time how long it takes you to respawn. Then time how long it takes you to figure out where your tank is, where your teammates have moved to, where the enemy has moved to and where the flags are, all in the time it took you to respawn. Then get your tank in the right direction. It’s a crapshoot where you will end up. How does respawning due to suicide differ from respawning due to homicide? You still end up in a randomly selected area of the map either way. If it is frustrating to another player, maybe that player shouldn’t shoot any tanks for fear of these "respawns".
david_v wrote: Even Spiff dislikes it.
I don’t see what relevance this has towards my opinion.

I’d say, if you want to take the random chance your tank my end up somewhere advantageous to you, go for it. If it works out for you time and time again, go to Vegas. You got good odds.

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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:28 am

bamf.... breathe in, breathe out. ;) Hehehe.

I think that David was simply saying "Spiff, who isn't picky about gameplay tactics, even dislikes it." I don't think he was in any way suggesting that my opinion would affect yours. Especially since you and I don't usually agree. :D


It seems to me that nobody even read my post. They're just posting the same thing over and over. *sigh* Less chatting.. more voting. :)

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Post by MortimeR » Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:59 pm

Suicide an rejoin it's not the same.

Rejoin it's not a game action. You go out the game and then you go in.
But suicide its a game action, it's a move that exists in the game, so
why don to use it? If you don't like it, disable it in the code and make
another game.

An example could be GM campers in FFA. I dont like them when there
are 2 or 4 players, and i think that it'd be good left the flag after 3 or 4
kills.
But in an ipotetical FFA league official match, where you have to win,
will you left the flag? it's in the game, you have to kill'em, so... why can't you use it?

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Post by The Red Baron » Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:22 pm

Bamf, I stand with you completely.


People in general. If you don't like it don't do it. If it agrees with you go ahead.

period. If it offends your conscience change the code so you respawn in a defined area. But then even some one can hang around that area and kill you every time you respawn, and you would have to create more rules. LET LIFE LIVE!
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Suicide no big deal

Post by CapN » Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:11 pm

Like I said before, I never really thought to try this as a tactic, and I am using that word extremely loosely. Spiff, I read your post! Here we go: Let me first start this with: :D :wink: 8) :lol-old: :o . Keep those in mind ok!?
Spaceman Spiff wrote:I can't count how many times I've been playing against someone and they used this "suicide" method to their advantage
It's not much of a method really, almost pure chance, along with several penalties associated with it...which DMP and BAMF outlined nicely, time lost, location etc. etc. As such, it was pure luck it turned out in their advantage, so "used" it to their advantage doesnt sound right to me. I had some one last night, maybe a newbie :wink: use the "method" of sitting still, and moving in perfect straight lines at me, very cute like, needless to say it didnt work out very well for him/her, and I'm guessing he/she will adjust their "methods." I dont know about you guys, being a BZ addict like I am, I'm always aware when someone has been killed/suicide or otherwise, cuz I know they will soon pop up somewhere and I want to be ready! This is esp. true in match play when # of people are small. This is too much for my pea brain when its 4 on 4 though. Tanks are most vulnerable when respawning.
Spaceman Spiff wrote: That just means that there's a 50% chance that it could provide un unfair advantage
On this point I will disagree with what BAMF said, it hardly seems a 50/50 shot that it will turn out to your advantage. I'm going to go out on a limb and say its probably less than a 10-15% so more like 10/90 advantage/disadvantage. I'd be willing to unscientifically test this with anyone if they want? I will sit where I want on the field....you(whoever) shoot yourself, then lets see the result of the next kill. I know most of my easiest kills, even with good players is when they respawn. I'm sure you'd agree you would rather be coming at me from far away straight on, then taking a chance coming in facing the wrong way. Geez, I think I have even heard people, umm, (whine) about being killed just as they respawn. :wink: All of the other "penalties" for dying in the game also reduce this so-called advantage.
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Both teams should have the same chances in matches, and that means that killing yourself to spawn in a better place gives on team an 50% chance of an advantage over the other
Huh?!? :D IMHO, several false assumptions here. Both teams can try this "method" if they so choose. Dont think it would work out for ya but no one is stopping you. And spawn in a better place, please read above. Ditto on 50% advantage.
Spaceman Spiff wrote:it still has the potential to be unfair.
Well, as my daddy use to say, (i'm using my Maine backwoods country bumpkin voice now, so please read accordingly) "Life aint always fair son, you just gots to rooollllll with the punches" :thumb: I myself, actually find it unfair that its been raining for a week, that my hairs turning grey, that my kids dont listen to me ALL the time, that I can't stay out all night partying and hop right out of bed the next day, (like I could in college), that our cats sometimes miss the cat box, that our last fish died this morning :( , that I cant go play soccer ALL day and still be able to get out of bed the next morning, and by Gosh the worst of all, that people actually dare, and DO, kick my tail in this game!! :? :D

-CapN-

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Post by david_v » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:15 pm

To Bamf again:
bamf wrote:I think the comparison to a player rejoining a game might be a bit extreme, I have never witnessed a player rejoining during a match.
The second part of that sentence doesn't have any relevance to me in that context, nor do I think it justifies or explains anything - and that is where I think you missed my point. So I'll just go on with some other quotes.
bamf wrote:Rejoining during a match places your tank in the same exact spot, each and every time. Quite the opposite from respawning due to suicide, it’s random where you will end up.
Not really, both techniques could be used for unfair surprise attacks, even if at a "random" basis for the suiciding.
bamf wrote:There are no rules on this. Last time I checked the forum, this was an opinion poll on the subject.
I've seen many people (most admins?) on Ducati 5156 who are rather upset with it (rejoining) and would kick players for such behaviour. My use of the word "rules" was a loose term in that context. You're hunting down single words, I think.
bamf wrote:Guess? How is that a guess? Next time you get shot by a tank or shoot yourself, time how long it takes you to respawn. Then time how long it takes you to figure out where your tank is, where your teammates have moved to, where the enemy has moved to and where the flags are, all in the time it took you to respawn. Then get your tank in the right direction. It’s a crapshoot where you will end up.
You're taking me too literally again. I was saying that the number ("50/50") is not an exact figure, end of story.

Respawning should take about five seconds. Even if you get a bad spawn and get killed, you have most likely saved time, which in itself is very unfair. (You don't get that far in ten seconds compared with the time it takes to get to the middle by normal means, and respawns generally put you near that area.) Not to talk about good spawns - that'd save you lots of time, plus give you a good spot for killing another tank.
bamf wrote:How does respawning due to suicide differ from respawning due to homicide? You still end up in a randomly selected area of the map either way.
Homicides don't generally get you closer to the middle, as I described above. Suiciding does. That's what I call cheating, that's how I cast my vote and that's what I stand for.
bamf wrote:If it is frustrating to another player, maybe that player shouldn’t shoot any tanks for fear of these "respawns".
I'm shaking already.

Dave
Last edited by david_v on Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by learner » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:18 pm

What an interesting poll/thread...

There are several issues, many already pointed out. I'll try not to recant (but probably will).

It's a valid league gameplay move. It can be clever; it can also be a rather foolish move.

Used properly, it can be rather advantageous saving several precious seconds in a league match. Used foolishly, it can be .. well .. suicide. twice even and a waste of many more seconds. I've seen both extremes.

I wouldn't consider it dishonorable simply because it's a league tactic that can help a team in their goal of winning a match at the mere sacrifice of their personal shot ratio/score and it has severe risks/penalties involved. It's comparable to shooting the other team in the gate after a capture. Sure, it may provide an advantage to the team using the tactic if the other team isn't paying attention, but there are also tradeoffs to consider that seasoned players can get used to and can use to counter the tactic.

The mere fact that there are many times it is foolish to use the tactic make it a skill that can be learned and improved upon. Learnable skills make for great gameplay.

I actually learned the tactic by observing the best players on the best teams play.

Saying it's dishonorable or cheating is comparable to the arguement of modern warefare versus the historic style of lining up the toy soldiers on a "fair" playing field. It should not be illegal without modifying the game to actually penalize suicides. The same goes for gate shots. It's not even that far off from "double-shooting" another player.

Make a suicide a longer respawn, and people will eventually stop using it. Similar code could be added for gate kills. There are many ways a penalty could be imposed for either. Point is, without a penalty it's foolish to say it's wrong.

That's why we're in the whole mess of arguments about uneven team captures on the public ctf playing fields. There's no penalty and no counter offense. If it's such an issue, there needs to be a game-imposed penalty.

Even so, though -- this particular tactic is risky enough that I christen it acceptable, valid, and even useful. Now.. the only question is how many people will foolishly try the suicide tactic now that it's in the open.... :)

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Post by Spaceman Spiff » Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:22 pm

The highest percentage agrees that it is "without honor"... I think that really settles it. I don't see it as a "game tactic".. I see it as a desparate attempt to gain some positional advantage over the other team. To me.. this is stupid. If you can't survive by using your skills and fighting your way out then I suppose you can use this tactic. Geesh. To me.... this sounds like a tactic that a newbie would come up with.

This is my last post in this thread. I think it's pointless. It's pretty obvious that some people will simply insist that it is wrong.. and others will simply insist that it is right. Go ahead and use it for all I care. In my opinion it just proves that your skills are lacking.

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smells like hogwash

Post by learner » Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:45 pm

Bah, there's not enough samples to qualitately say anything yet other than a majority don't find it "cheating" perhaps.

The point is that unless it's deemed "cheating" it _is_ a skill that can be utilized. Using it in desparate situations probably falls into the "foolish" category of uses I referred to earlier. There are, however, situations where it will provide a clear and careful advantage.
To me.... this sounds like a tactic that a newbie would come up with.
hehe I think most newbies figure out how to shoot themselves pretty quick. It takes a lot more thought to actually consider using that to your advantage.

Again, it's a very similar question as to whether storming a base after capture is "honorable" or worthwhile etc. It's done because it's advantageous regardless. People will shoot themselves in a league match because they find it advantageous and it's available. To each their own.

It's not much more different than learning the reload rate after consecutive shots on a 2-shot server. You're learning the respawn rate and respawn location probability.

I personally don't care if it's deemed acceptable or not, from a gameplay perspective. Whether or not it's useful or not will settle itself out on the playing field.

The question becomes whether to prohibit it, which this poll does not clearly ask.
Last edited by learner on Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by david_v » Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:18 am

The other tactics are harder to "prohibit". If you say you shouldn't be allowed to shoot someone when they're on the base, when should you be allowed to? Directly when they spawn? After five seconds? I think we have to set a limit somewhere.

I don't find those things as important as the suicide technique anyway. I also find it cheap, like most people here do.

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Post by [dmp] » Mon Aug 11, 2003 2:51 am

I think that to prohibit this intented sucide would be quite hard to enforce in battles (think: argues if it was an accident or not. and what to do about it), and isnt really worth the effort, imho. In my experience this intented sucides only happens a few teams each match, and is therefor not really a problem. I've been doing this for quite some time and have receive no complaints, and i trusth people to tell me if they think im unfair (and if they dont, they shouldnt blame me for not changing this behaviour).

David, Im not sure if I understand the phrase: "I don't find those things as important as the suicide technique anyway.". Sounds like you're really annoyed by this? If so, this is sure a surprise to me, as you never mentioned it at all. With the amount of BS :) you receive from me daily, you could at least have told me?

Personally I think that people who delays a capture to let teammates get into position for shooting when they appear at base is much worse. But its a part of the game. I dont like it much, but dosnt really consider it a problem. If you dont do it, you can be sure others will. It within the game intented boundaries; You just need to make the best of it.

I got this feeling, that most people that voted never really considered it a tactic. If thats correct, most people havnt noticed it or got annoyed/upset about it. So again; I dont think its a problem. And is surprised by the reaction, started by making this simple tactic visible to all. The tactic havnt changed at all.

.. and finally. Its just a game: They might get a lucky break and respawn behind you, or even at the flag and gets away with capturing it. But that just give you a good reason to show that you are superious to the team; rematch.

At the end of they day, I would like to have a friendy community. No matter if I lost or won. I think this is more important.
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Post by david_v » Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:10 pm

[dmp]:

As the technique is a rather new phenomena on Ducati for me, I don't think I've seen you doing it yet.

Dave
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Post by [dmp] » Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:08 pm

.... I've done it for the past 6 month, if not longer.. :) But it dosnt happen in every match. And if it does, only a few times.
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Post by CapN » Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:08 pm

Maybe we haven't noticed DMP because we are so accustomed to seeing you respawn so much...from suicide or other that its hard to figure out what's going on!!!!!

JUST KIDDING!!

That's really my tactic, I'm trying to get shot so I hope I respawn in better position.....yeah ....that's it!

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Post by The Red Baron » Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:40 pm

What is the difference in a homicide spawn, or a suicide spawn?

Based on the internal Code, Prove to me there is a difference. Does the code differentiate and place you in totally different spot when you suicide, then when you homicide? Is your spawn affected by a suicide or homicide. NO! The code (correct me developers if I am wrong) randomly selects a spot to place you in, taking in effect sometimes tanks around you, placing you away from them to give you a better chance of survival on the spawn.
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Post by CapN » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:16 pm

Baron, I was joking, I was taking a shot at dmp just saying that was getting killed a lot? Get it??

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Post by The Red Baron » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:32 pm

Yes Capn, I got that joke. My point being is what is the difference between a suicide respawn, and a homocide respawn. Sorry for the misconstrued point. I wasn't refering to your comment on DMP :)

I was presenting another point of discussion on the suicide technique.
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Post by Merry » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:06 pm

I'm guilty of doing it once in awhile. :blush:
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Post by Chestal » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:36 pm

Red Baron: The respawn code does not know whether you have killed yourself or have been killed by an enemy. I guess that the person who was implying that after a suicide you respawn closer to the middle was making the assumption that the suicide happened in the corner (the tactic that [dmp] uses sometimes). On random CTF maps the respawn will not put you near the borders of the map.

Generally, I am a little suprised that some people seem to have so hard feelings about this issue. IMHO it is a valid tactic for several reasons, but not one that I would use: 1) Unlike rejoining, it is a move within the game. 2) In general, it is not possible to tell whether a suicide was on purpose or accidental. And what if someone drives into someone else's shot on purpose?

The poll seems to indicate that the vast majority of people find this tactic acceptable, although only about half of them likes it. If we decide that we'd rather not have this tactic used, then the only promising way to achieve it, is to get rid of the possible advantage which it gives you. One possible way would be to increase the explosion time (the time between death and respawn) in case of a suicide from 5s to maybe 8s or 10s. In 1.9, this might even be a server setting.

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Post by Death Barrel » Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:06 am

hehe, it must be nice to play matches :)
I wouldn't know anymore.....lol

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Post by ski » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:46 pm

Chestal wrote:One possible way would be to increase the explosion time (the time between death and respawn) in case of a suicide from 5s to maybe 8s or 10s. In 1.9, this might even be a server setting.
NNNOOOO, i think the explosion time is way to long as it is.....LOL!! :lol-old:

I get hit and its like waiting an eternity while your team is shorthanded...heheh
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Post by Grumbler » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:36 pm

sounds like a server configuration setting/switch
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