RikerCup January 2009

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Mucho Maas
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RikerCup January 2009

Post by Mucho Maas » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:26 am

I wanted to thank all involved for a great organized RikerCup.
Special thanks go to the leaders of both teams, namely Saturos and Zelgadis on the european side, and The Doink and beanpole on the side of the americanas. I think they did a great great job.
Great thanks also to dexter who designed and managed the RikerCup website.
Many thanks to the people who played, who contributed in fair and really exciting matches.
And also a great compliment to the spectators of the match....though every single one of you had a big desire to be picked for one of the matches, you all did a great job in cheering for the teams and allowed for smooth and undisturbed gameplay....you helped in making it the event it has become.
I think it's right to say that you elevated a simple online first person shooter to a big successful spectator sports event. congratulations!
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by ts » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:44 am

There were very much observers (40 people watching at quol's server, even more at bzf) and almost all behaved well. Great job observers. :)

I wish the team captains do a better job next time as the both teams were pretty biased. To me it also looked like being in one room was sufficient to play in 2 of the 3 matches.
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BZFlag riker cup #2 1st match.pdf
A little overview, copied from my local website. Please ignore the non-english text.
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by zaphod » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:20 am

it was great fun to watch!!! GG guys!!! a real GU overdose in a good sense!!!
i'm sure it made many player curious about GU after seeing yesterdays server-list ::: good promotion too! and i can confirm that at the last match they were 51 observers (THX quol ::: the server was certainly steaming ;-) !!!

just one tiny little critic ::: choosing the teams should be better balanced!
after having a look at the statistic of the first match that ts left us above ::: 50% of the 1st euro team was phago!
just a suggestion for the next riker cup ::: why not taking one player out of the 10 top teams?!
and it is the team-leader or team internal voting that decides who will play for each team?!
this could take off a lot of pressure for the captains on each side of the ocean in choosing players and not overlooking some candidates and it would be certainly more balanced!!!

anyway ::: i had a lot of fun watching! and as Foo put it perfectly into words :::
Foo wrote:I think it's right to say that you elevated a simple online first person shooter to a big successful spectator sports event. congratulations!
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by Saturos » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:55 am

ts wrote:There were very much observers (40 people watching at quol's server, even more at bzf) and almost all behaved well. Great job observers. :)

I wish the team captains do a better job next time as the both teams were pretty biased. To me it also looked like being in one room was sufficient to play in 2 of the 3 matches.
This whole post is completely ridiculous and offending, I just dont know where to start.

First of all... you're congratulating the observers but pick at the team captains? That bears no proportions. You're making it look like it is an archievement not to break the rules (e.g. abusing /gameover) while you fail to honor the captains hard work even the slightest bit. Do you know how much time those three people and me put into this? We've thought hours about the formation, tactics, subs... we wrote countless bzmails, we had endless discussions with people about the cup. And in the end all you have to say is that you wish we would do a better job? Sorry ts, but I'm tempted to use the f-word.
How about being happy that you could play one match because we made five (!) subs? How about trusting the captains to make decisions based on skill (both 1on1 and tactical overview)? Oh I forgot, you like to moan and groan on every possible occasion. If you think you can do a better job, I'm happy to pass leadership over to you next time and pick on your mistakes afterwards.

Seriously... we won the second RikerCup, we gave nearly all our Subs a chance to play... looks like we did a pretty good job, no?

----

Regarding zaphod: Looking at the PDF ts provided... 50% of the american team was from BZB!! OH NOES! Why dont you see that? Probably just the usual phago bashing? Right, next one please.
RikerCup is Top10 Euro vs. Top10 from the other side of the ocean. And it worked fine both times we had this great event... you're free to try organising the other thing you are suggesting (which doesnt sound like a good concept to me, but this is about the RikerCup).

----

I thank everybody who participated in this great event, especially the other captains, dexter&AHA for the cool website, doink for the very smooth organisation, all the players and observers who played and cheered for their team and of course Foo for his post in this topic. You're the ones making this game as great as it is. :)

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by dexter » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:01 pm

zaphod wrote: just one tiny little critic ::: choosing the teams should be better balanced!
after having a look at the statistic of the first match that ts left us above ::: 50% of the 1st euro team was phago!
Yes, and at another look at that 'statistic' of the second match, there was not one phago playing.
The Americans had 50% players of the 1st American team was BZB. What's the big deal? The leaders are always gonna have a hard job picking players and there are also always going to be player who are unhappy with the team line-up.
ts wrote:I wish the team captains do a better job next time as the both teams were pretty biased. To me it also looked like being in one room was sufficient to play in 2 of the 3 matches.

I don't understand how you say both teams were pretty biased. Perhaps in your opinion, but I think everyone else is quite happy with the how the leaders picked players. I don't see why you shouldn't be, since according to your statistic, you played the second match. The euro-team subbed over 50% of the team for the second match, while the Americans didn't really change much at all.
The third match showed that the teams were obviously not biased. Every participating player showed that he had deserved his spot in the team, on both sides.
If you're really so disappointed, you can always arrange your own Cup with the players you see fit in playing. I think it's sad you failed to acknowledge how much time and effort was spent on organizing this tournament. The lack of appreciation on your behalf is overwhelming, since your blinded by all the INJUSTICE!
Like Foo said, I think the tournament was a complete success and hope to see something similar to it in 6 months or so.

P.S.: It was amazing, how well the american team was able to compensate for their missing players. They made all the matches very close and fun for everyone watching and playing. Nice job!

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by slime » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:15 pm

Well, you can say the teams were biased all you want, but each and every person who played had a genuine reason for being picked. Being in the same room as one of the captains for the American/Canadian team, I can safely say that our captains strived to pick the players who they figured would help the team the most, disregarding which team they were on. Also, I've heard the term 'Phago Cup' used quite a lot to describe a bias on the European team. Perhaps the reason more Phago members were on the team is because they are all great in skill, active, and well liked by the community, and with the Phago-LAN going on, they could be sure to maximize teamwork, which we all know is a huge part in succeeding in the Riker Cup.

Personally, I thought the Riker Cup was a huge success. I had the honor of playing in all 3 of the matches, and they were all extremely fun! I also want to extend a big thank you to everyone involved in making it a success, but especially the 4 team captains. They had to deal with so many issues, and they handled them quite well. They endured countless pm's of people who wanted to play, endless berating of their choices of teams, and the organization of the cup. All issues were handled professionally, so GOOD JOB!

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by zaphod » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:00 pm

@ saturos and dexter
don't take it personal!!! as i printed it in bold ::: one tiny little critic!!!!
like just a small observation at the very far end of all the praises and congrats of the well achieved efforts you put into!!!
but criticism is no insult ::: just a little "help" to make it even better next time!
i'm just saying what most others felt! so i believe it had to be said!
accept this one tiny little critic ::: as it is always a part of life and great efforts!!!
and was meant neither personal nor "phago bashing"; just a suggestion for improvement!!!!

thanks again for the great event i have experienced!
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by ts » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:15 pm

Saturos wrote:First of all... you're congratulating the observers but pick at the team captains? That bears no proportions. You're making it look like it is an archievement not to break the rules (e.g. abusing /gameover) while you fail to honor the captains hard work even the slightest bit.
You have to keep in mind that a single observer could have ruined fun for all by disrupting the matches.

Of course there must have been a lot of work to organise the whole event but by biased I mean lot of the good people were not playing. No barons, no orbit, no NTH etc. showed up. Perhaps the date was not so good? On the other hand I bet there will be no time where all could play.

What made me wonder is that Bachi played in 2 matches. I really like Bachi very much but I don't think he plays that good.

I didn't said it was bad, indeed it was good and catched a lot of attention. Changing players in the 2nd match was a nice idea and I was surprised that I was chosen. Especially when I consider how bad I play against people with more lag.
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by Zelgadis » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:06 pm

The RikerCup was from my point of view, a great success. Although there were also some allusions, such as "phago cup." I want to clarify that the Phagos were not chosen because Saturos was one of the leaders, no, they were selected on the basis of their expertise. You think Bachi is not a "that" good player? Then look how he plays when he is with the other Phagos in a team. That's called teamplay and was exactly the reason why he and the other Phagos were selected and exactly why it worked well. In the American team were the 50% of the players from BZB. And? That disturbed anyone? I think not. I think that some people were very unfair to the Phagos and the captains, because they do not know how big the job was / is.

That is my opinion, but I think that the RikerCup was a great success.
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by Mucho Maas » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:27 pm

The title of the RikerCup is 10 best europeans vs the 10 best from the american continent. That was, is and should stay the subtext of this cup.

What constitutes the 10 best is what was not well defined. The team captains chosen by the GU League Admins were chosen because we would trust them to interpret the 10 best in a way appropriate for such a big GU League Event. There were no predefined set of rules, objectives and criteria formulated before hand, so the meaning of what are the 10 best players was filled in by the corresponding team captains in their best interpretation.

The line up as announced beforehand showed that the aim was to get together a team that in the eyes of the team leaders would work well together as a team. Logically that would result in a list of players that know each other inside out already from playing in the same league teams. So the meaning of 10 best was interpreted into best working team. This can be a legal interpretation, and is not necessarily the same as friends first, although to some it may appear that way.

I am happy that (i can only speak for the european team) the above interpretation was opened up to reflect the GU League spirit (see notes below), though I was personally a bit sad to have played a match without any of the Phago team members.

Since the RikerCup is a GU League Event, the interpretation of 10 best players in my opinion should be extended and consolidated to something that distinctively reflects the spirit and members of the GU League. My proposal is the following (in that order):

1. Performance during the last year
- How well did they play during last years GU League (Skill and teamwork)

2. Contribution to the GU League
What did they do for the GU League in regards to the league in general. This includes
- Team organization (have to explicitly name AlliedArmour)
- Match activity (without match activity there simply is no league)
- Social interaction with the entire league
- Contribution to the fun and positive experience for teammates and the entire league (are you interested only in your own team, or do you keep in mind the wellbeing of the entire league)

3. Conduct

This way every member of the GU League (except unfortunately for the non-europeans/americans, but we hope to be able to work on that) knows that they can work their way into a possible next RikerCup, something that will be a big gain for the League and the Cup.

I don't think that the last RikerCup reflected non of the above points. If you look at last years match performance and activity of some bzb and phago players, it is logically that their teams would have a large contribution of players for the cup.
So did some other teams and players, which were a bit underrepresented, but were corner stones of the 2008 season of the GU League. But this is partly due to the fact that some of them couldn't make it, unfortunately (or showed up late!!)

The cup is a pretty fresh affair. This is only the second time it is held, and I hope we will have many more. Please don't criticize the team leaders of both continents, they made their decisions without specific preset guidelines for the cup and tried to fill it in in their view best way possible.
The proof of it was that all three matches were really exciting to watch, and that we saw matches of high quality. And I am really happy that it didn't turn out as a one sided affair as some may have expected...the match was open until the last few minutes of the final decisive match. Good job!
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Post by KIADB » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:48 pm

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Last edited by KIADB on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by wanda » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:49 pm

No adds nor comments.
Just want to thank all players for that great performance.
As an obs I never had seen such playing before.
Great solo operations ( how can someone watch 5 players and dodge
about 20 shots at the same time? ) and good teamplaying in attack and defense. Thank you all, I enjoyed that night so much.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by quantum dot » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:31 pm

I think the event was a great success and I have to join the others in my thanks to all people that spent time organizing it. Complaining is easy, it takes 3 min and a post. Constructing is really difficult and takes lots of skill and patience.

The captains were chosen by the GU League Admins to organize their respective teams, as Foo said, they were given no rules or guidance as how to pick the players. They only knew they had being appointed to organize a team that could bring the cup home. And that's what they did. Next year there will probably be different captains and the team selection will be made according to their liking. The best 10 players are different names for different people. Captains want to win the cup, and they pick their players accordingly. Also some people seem to forget that some people who were asked to participate could not make it for the agreed date.

You have to see this as National Teams, say in football. A manager is given the responsibility to make a national team. She/He picks the players he/she thinks best fitted for the team work, not only individualities, but, mostly, team players are needed.

All in all the aim that was to promote GU League and celebrate a singular event for the fun of the GU community I think was a great success. I had never seen 50+ obv in a bzf server, chatting over that capture, that move, that triple shot, ..., it was certainly a great an unique event in bzflag world.
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by doc holiday » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:14 pm

just to add my opinion...
- the cup was great success. we never had as many obs on a match like we had on this riker cup. i had fun to be part of it and to me it seems most obs also had.
- it was sad to see barons and mik and dot all haven't been there. matches would have been closer and cup probably would have gone to american team if they had attended (no offense to the am players that played, you still did great). i know its impossible to catch them all, but still it doesn't feel like a "real" win... :) and btw: all euros found their way to the match :P
- i think phagos really deserved to play - all of them. we might discuss their personal 1vs1 skill but their teamplay is great and that's what you need most in a 10vs10 match. i was a bit frightened when they didn't want to take part in the 2nd match so stop phago-bashing :)
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by soxs » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:38 pm

Lets not bash zaph here. But one thing i would like to see in the future is one admin and one non admin. It will help the team to possibly be better picked. I feel the American team could have been better picked, but hey regardless the team leaders thought that their picked team would be best and if we differ we must just swallow our own pride. Also constructed criticism is the best criticism. On that note it was nice to see the whole cup to be able to take place. Gj! all that helped organize it! :D

Ready fore the next one!

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by ducatiwannabe » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:40 pm

Nobody's phago-bashing. Good game all, was a blast. I was honored to play in the tourny. Thanksies! 8)

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by birdie » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:39 pm

It was a good tournament. I want to thank both teamcaptains for all their good work, picking names, the organisation and let everything flow smoothly.

The phagobashing is stupid, as bzb played with 5 also in a match and no one speaks about that (outside in this post). Also Europe did subbed a lot and I think every one could play who was selected (?).

Admin or no admin organising it, it wont take much of a difference (look to Europe with zelgadis co-captain).

As for the date, no date fits every one well, an agreement was made on the 3rd of januari.

Looking forward in having this every year.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by dexter » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:05 am

Speaking about having another tournament...how does July sound? Or maybe even May? Since this tournament went pretty smoothely, especially the whole pick-players-at-server set up. We seem to have developed a good system that could make future events very easy to organize. I'd also be happy to make www.bzpro.net/rikercup into a general RikerCup sites, for all the future ones coming up.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by plasma kaz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:37 am

I like the idea of having another cup in July/June.. have a hunch that more of the americans will be able to attend if it was in the summer.

heard qdot thinking that it should occur every year, but I disagree with this. I think 6 months is around bullseye to provide enough interest, and will spike the gu league interest more than just one time a year, keeping it more consistent.
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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by slime » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:15 am

dexter wrote:Speaking about having another tournament...how does July sound? Or maybe even May? Since this tournament went pretty smoothely, especially the whole pick-players-at-server set up. We seem to have developed a good system that could make future events very easy to organize. I'd also be happy to make http://www.bzpro.net/rikercup into a general RikerCup sites, for all the future ones coming up.
Perhaps, but I don't think it should be overplayed. To keep up the hype of the Cup, it should be played sparingly. I'd say once a year is OK, twice a year is probably OK too, but any more than that and it would be too much.

In regards to the organization, I agree it went much more smoothly than I thought it would. The picking players beforehand made it quite easier than before. I think we should keep that system for future Cups.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by ducatiwannabe » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:25 am

For what it's worth, I'd say a match in the month of January, and then another in July. The cycle continues. Every six months, we match! :-) In 2010, we'd have another Riker. Plus, we'd get one more this year. Similarly to what beanpole and slime said, I think if we made it every three or four months it would be almost too soon of a time period between matches.

Was a grrrrrrrrreat time. :-)

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Do i need to say more?

Post by Knox » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:10 pm

Zelgadis wrote:The RikerCup was from my point of view, a great success.
slime wrote:Personally, I thought the Riker Cup was a huge success.
zaphod wrote:it was great fun to watch!!! GG guys!!! a real GU overdose in a good sense!!!
ts wrote:There were very much observers (40 people watching at quol's server, even more at bzf) and almost all behaved well. Great job observers.
Foo wrote:I wanted to thank all involved for a great organized RikerCup.

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by doc holiday » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:53 pm

i think the main ideas of the riker cup should be having fun and advertising the league. for this, organising the cup every 3 or 4 months would be better :)
Qui bene bibit, bene dormit. Qui bene dormit, non pecat. Qui non pecat, venit in caelum. Igitur: qui bene bibit, venit in caelum!

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by dexter » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:48 pm

I agree with doc here, but the Cup should also be something special for the players. If we have the RikerCup 4-5 times a year, it could get boring for some people. Let's not overdo it, 6 months is probably the way to go, imo.

It's easy to propose a vague date at the moment, but July is usually the time where all the German students have their end-of year finals. Some American studens might already be in camp, etc.
I think we should just start talking about this again in ~5 months and see how people feel. :)

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Re: RikerCup January 2009

Post by Bachiiiiiiiiiiiiiii » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:42 pm

i dont really know how ts can complain about my pick for the team.
we won these two matches, btw.
and if you really want to know why i have been picked, check out of last years riker-cup replay.
not convinced yet? take a look at the recent riker-cup replay.
ok, if it comes to the scoreboard, it looks bad for me, but:
-scoreboard doesnt have caps in
-scoreboard doesnt give points for nice sniper-shots or nice teamplay
-somebody has to be the last on the scorboard, however
-press "s"

and btw the riker-cup was great fun, thanks to all participants.

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