?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Discussion for GU League Players
Post Reply
User avatar
FiringSquad
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Ireland

?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by FiringSquad » Tue May 12, 2009 6:54 pm

Shots going through tanks (as viewed from your client) that do not kill, is not proof of cheating.

I have sat through many replays hearing things like "99% of the time that would kill" or "it looked like it might have touched the corner of his tank".

When a player dodges a shot, he is dodging the shot as it appears on his screen. This will not be exactly as it appears on anyone else's screen, or even as it appears on the replay server. If you don't see an explosion, then the chances are that he dodged it successfully.

Typing "thru" or "?" every time, just because he did not dodge the bullets as they appear on your screen, is essentially calling the other player a cheat.

If there is a problem with the connection that makes a match unplayable, then the response should be something like "I'm getting too many throughs, X's jit is too high, I can't play under these conditions. Can we abandon or move to another server?", or something to that effect. If you do not wish to abandon the match then just get over it and play.

It's a sad fact that some players will use cheats to gain an advantage, but we should not let that make us suspicious of every player who can dodge. "Through-shots" are part of BZFlag, if you can't deal with that then tough. Typing "thru" creates an environment where people become suspicious and where even noob players learn to suspect cheating on the most ridiculous grounds.

In order to reduce this air of suspicion, I therefore suggest that we introduce a sanction for this type of messaging.

Perhaps we could have a locked apology forum where admins post an apology given to them by the miscreant and where multiple violations could result in a temporary gagging.

I wonder...
Is it possible to gag someone so that they can only speak to mates?

User avatar
slime
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:08 am
Location: Omaha , Nebraska
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by slime » Tue May 12, 2009 9:30 pm

I believe this is a good topic to bring up, FiringSquad.

As for the typing the shorthands "?" "wth" etc., for me at least, I have seen two different instances where these are used. Some players type these shorthands because they actually are curious about a specific shot going through a player. To make myself more clear, sometimes I will type "?" because I wonder whether something happened on my opponents side that made a shot go through. The shorthand "?" can be used to replace the longer sentence "That was odd, did anything happen on your side as I shot at you there, or was it just me?" Most people don't have enough time during a match to type out such a long sentence, so "?" is used in place of it. This version of using "?" is not assuming cheating, but merely asking the opponent a question, and is generally used when there is a clean, straight shot through on a player that was undodgeable.

However, some people use these shorthands excessively in a match. Whenever a player makes a tight dodge under lag, a shorthand like the ones you mentioned are bound to be used. IMO, this is the real problem with this issue; when players make a shorthand comment after every tight dodge, even when lag is present. These simply take all the fun away from the match, as well as install suspicion into players' minds.

So FiringSquad, I agree somewhat with your proposals. I believe a sanction placed upon shorthands such as these would be good, but only when they are used in excess. However, this would make it hard to define a clear cut way of enforcing it.

So if a pure sanction on these shorthands wouldn't work out, maybe including them with the public cheating accusation rule would be a good substitute. If a player is seen using these shorthands in excess, someone could take some screenshots and send them into the admins for review. There could be a couple warnings, then perhaps a short 3 or 4 day ban if reports of a certain player keep coming in. The 'gagging' mentioned above would also prove useful in this situation, if it is possible.

My 2 cents.

slime

User avatar
Xell
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 1:55 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Xell » Wed May 13, 2009 7:59 am

Another solution: just deem it an honour. It's only about the point of view. If your lag isn't extremely high, you may think : "wow, i'm such a tight dodger that he thinks he shots went through me." :)

User avatar
Grace F
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:29 pm
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Grace F » Wed May 13, 2009 8:30 am

slime wrote:As for the typing the shorthands "?" "wth" etc., for me at least, I have seen two different instances where these are used. Some players type these shorthands because they actually are curious about a specific shot going through a player. To make myself more clear, sometimes I will type "?" because I wonder whether something happened on my opponents side that made a shot go through. The shorthand "?" can be used to replace the longer sentence "That was odd, did anything happen on your side as I shot at you there, or was it just me?" Most people don't have enough time during a match to type out such a long sentence, so "?" is used in place of it. This version of using "?" is not assuming cheating, but merely asking the opponent a question, and is generally used when there is a clean, straight shot through on a player that was undodgeable.
Usually when I see "?", and this is my interpretation, I will interpret that as "Wtf?". I guess that's because that is what usually follows :roll: These "shorthands" have caused arguments because it hasn't been interpreted as a simple question.

I agree that using these shorthands like "Thru", do raise alot of mistaken suspicion. FiringSquad pointed out a good point in saying that even noobs are absorbing this attitude. It seems like most people don't understand that a player being shot at, sees the shots differently to the person who fired them.
Image
Image

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Wed May 13, 2009 1:41 pm

Definitely a good topic to have been brought up. For one, this kind of behavior has been a lot more present recently than it was during the absence of some players and I feel it has to be dealt with.

I think a lot of players should be reminded that saying "wtf" is basically using the f-word, and "wth" is not much better. So it shouldn't really matter in what context it's used, it's just cursing. Especially when it's used excessively after every narrow miss or dodge. As to the question marks, I feel that it's justified in crucial situations. E.i. last second cap and the shots just miss the player, or something similar. But questioning every single miss or dodge is just annoying and most certainly leads to a bad atmosphere among the players. There's no space for such behavior in this league. So like the others suggested, players should be warned or banned when excessively questioning others. If it's 'thru', wtf" or "?", it doesn't matter. Flat out bad behavior that doesn't belong in matches. And I'd also like to impose on the admins, what a big problem this has become lately. Just a couple days ago, a team refused to play a re, due to all the questioning and complaining. I don't think we've had problems like these since the ToC days.

If you really can't stop typing comments like that excessively, then you should use Team Chat. And also just the clarify: I'm not saying that it should be against the rules to question a situation in a match from time to time, that's not a problem. But not ten times a match. So I urge everyone to just cut the attitude during matches and accept the fact that misses and thru's happen in this game, like FiringSquad said. I don't think admins should hesitate to ban/mute a player for a couple of days, either. It seems that this is the only way people will stop doing it. Common sense is simply the best solution, although it seems that won't be enough. I'd like to here an admin's opinion on this matter.. :idea-alt:

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by ts » Wed May 13, 2009 5:54 pm

FiringSquad wrote:I wonder...
Is it possible to gag someone so that they can only speak to mates?
I see the entire complainign as problem. There are a few players who always complain and I would have banned them but there is no census because I guess people don't see the rules violated. I wouldn't want to play in a team that does not respect opponents.

Regarding the specific situation mentioned, could you point us to a specific replay or date/time to look at the logs?
dexter wrote: Flat out bad behavior that doesn't belong in matches. And I'd also like to impose on the admins, what a big problem this has become lately. Just a couple days ago, a team refused to play a re, due to all the questioning and complaining. I don't think we've had problems like these since the ToC days.
There are very few players complaining a lot. You're one of them.
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Wed May 13, 2009 8:46 pm

There are very few? That's so strange, you know why? Because it seems that a handful of players just all agreed on this topic and took the time to write lengthy replies. Why would we do this if we didn't think it was more than "very few". You also seem to have missed the whole complaining being a bad influence for new players part.

Maybe we need an admin who's a little more up-to date with current events in the league, as you obviously aren't. Sad, but not unexpected that you would have to bring everything to a personal level again. Thanks for staying on-topic.

FiringSquad, I don't think you can confine players to team chat only, it's either /mute all chat or none. Guess silencing would work best.

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by ts » Wed May 13, 2009 9:39 pm

dexter wrote:There are very few? That's so strange, you know why? Because it seems that a handful of players just all agreed on this topic and took the time to write lengthy replies. Why would we do this if we didn't think it was more than "very few".
Many can't watch their language all the time. My impression is that very few behave often bad. The latter are very annoying, at least in my impression.
dexter wrote:You also seem to have missed the whole complaining being a bad influence for new players part.
That's why I say I would have banned them.
dexter wrote:Maybe we need an admin who's a little more up-to date with current events in the league, as you obviously aren't.
[Team] ts: I wonder why all think admin group = qd only
[Team] dexter: because he's the only one with a brain
dexter wrote:Sad, but not unexpected that you would have to bring everything to a personal level again. Thanks for staying on-topic.
In my opinion this thread is also about you. Saying "..." almost every time a situation was close and did not end lucky for you is certainly not good. You should practice what you preach. Sadly you do not.
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Thu May 14, 2009 1:27 pm

yawn. Quoting me out of context? Your question was rather ignorant, as not everyone thinks that; thus I gave you an equally stupid answer. And furthermore I was also trying to point out that all you seem to enjoy doing is letting other people know what they're doing wrong, maybe you could post a suggestions next time to help solve the problem?

lucky luke
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by lucky luke » Thu May 14, 2009 1:53 pm

If you´re unhappy with people complaining about shots thru etc (which also maybe right!), then mute them. I dont see the point of this discussion. Setting new rules (again) just because some people write "?" or "wtf?", etc... would be quite childisch on my point of view.

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by ts » Thu May 14, 2009 4:41 pm

dexter wrote:Quoting me out of context? Your question was rather ignorant, as not everyone thinks that; thus I gave you an equally stupid answer.
The context would only show you're trying to provoke and many seem to think that that admin group = qd only.
dexter wrote:And furthermore I was also trying to point out that all you seem to enjoy doing is letting other people know what they're doing wrong, maybe you could post a suggestions next time to help solve the problem?
I did and I agree with lucky luke that new rules won't help.
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

User avatar
FiringSquad
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by FiringSquad » Thu May 14, 2009 5:09 pm

lucky luke wrote:If you´re unhappy with people complaining about shots thru etc (which also maybe right!), then mute them. I dont see the point of this discussion.
The problem is that of a culture that suspects cheating instead of just normal network anomalies.
The use of these exclamations encourages others to do likewise and in the end, a culture of suspicion reigns.

If such exclamations were somehow discouraged, then I believe it would result in less suspicion overall. Especially if more appropriate exclamations were encouraged.
"lucker", "aarrgh!" and ":P" are perfectly acceptable. In fact I think they add fun to the game. Maybe they just need to be shortened to "lkr" and "arg" so that they are easier to type.

How sophisticated is the message filtering system?
Could it do things like change a single "?" into "Where did that come from?" while leaving "offi?" unchanged?
"thru" -> "the network hates me"
"wtf" -> "I seem to be losing control of myself"
"what?" -> "I beg your pardon! I wasn't paying attention. Did I miss something?" which of course will result in the response "me :P".
"huh?" -> "Wow! That was awesome! I wish I could do that."

If it could do such things, then even if you know the other user typed "wtf", it would not result in the casting of suspicion.

User avatar
FiringSquad
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by FiringSquad » Thu May 14, 2009 5:17 pm

ts wrote: I agree with lucky luke that new rules won't help.
Could you explain why you think this?
Is it that you feel they would not be enforced?
Do you think the Admins will be unable to tell the difference between a simple question and a veiled accusation of cheating?

I'm not looking for new rules. I just think that these exclamations should be viewed in the same way as someone saying "That should have killed you! You must be cheating". Just because it's quicker to type "thru" every time you miss, should not make it any less wrong.

User avatar
slime
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:08 am
Location: Omaha , Nebraska
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by slime » Thu May 14, 2009 9:07 pm

lucky luke wrote:If you´re unhappy with people complaining about shots thru etc (which also maybe right!), then mute them. I dont see the point of this discussion. Setting new rules (again) just because some people write "?" or "wtf?", etc... would be quite childisch on my point of view.
That doesn't fix the problem being discussed in this thread. Even if the person who is being bothered by the comments mutes them, all others playing in the match as well as all observers still see it. One person muting doesn't fix the problem of creating a suspicious air.

Muting also creates other problems, especially during a match. Perhaps a player is overusing the 'wth' shorthand and my teammate and I decide to mute them. Then that player says something important that needs to be heard by all. If they are muted, that important message will never be seen. I suppose that is one of the issues with the 'gag' idea suggested earlier.

FiringSquad, I like your idea of changing the phrases mentioned into longer, more appropriate sentences. However, many of your ideas of what they could be changed into has to do with the match itself. Most times a phrase like 'huh?' or 'what?' is used, it is in simple conversation outside of a match. These would need to be changed into sentences that make sense both during a match and in simple conversation.

User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by ducatiwannabe » Fri May 15, 2009 2:46 am

I don't think silencing players with concerns is a very good idea. Most times people just are using "?" or "huh?" or whatever else in disbelief. Oftentimes, it is not in suspicion. Players just need to understand that lag is an issue (which many do, because if it's not "?" it's "lag" :P) and that things aren't always as they seem on your screen. I don't think silencing a player or making new rules is really a concern. If there's somebody who's causing a lot of trouble and basically accusing people of cheating, then private message somebody to do something about it. Or, silence them during the match and ignore it. There will always be those suspicious. You can't really force them not to be.

User avatar
Saturos
Art Master General
Art Master General
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:48 pm
Location: Berlin/Germany
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Saturos » Fri May 15, 2009 7:16 am

Silencing doesnt help anything. One doesnt solve a problem by ignoring it.

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by ts » Fri May 15, 2009 9:48 am

FiringSquad wrote:
ts wrote: I agree with lucky luke that new rules won't help.
Could you explain why you think this?
Is it that you feel they would not be enforced?
I see these type of messages already covered by the forbid to do player harassment and public cheating accusations. I've even seen a player using racism language and he was only banned a day. My conclusion is that the rules are not enforced enough.
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Fri May 15, 2009 12:30 pm

ts wrote:
dexter wrote:Quoting me out of context? Your question was rather ignorant, as not everyone thinks that; thus I gave you an equally stupid answer.
The context would only show you're trying to provoke and many seem to think that that admin group = qd only.

And this has what to do with the topic? Annoying.
FiringSquad wrote:How sophisticated is the message filtering system?
That would definitely be problematic if people just want to have a conversation and are constantly 'corrected' by the server. I just see the solution in having admins be a little more strict about the matter.

snick
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:26 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Sat May 16, 2009 6:56 pm

FiringSquad wrote: The problem is that of a culture that suspects cheating instead of just normal network anomalies.
The use of these exclamations encourages others to do likewise and in the end, a culture of suspicion reigns.
With respect, I feel that this is skirting around the issue. The root cause is that many
people have been caught cheating; it is sensible to assume they are not the last.
While it remains trivially easy to cheat, many will. Others will become suspicious and
make comments.

The comments will likely never be eliminated totally, but the most effective way to
reduce them is surely to make cheating much more difficult. I would suggest that that
is much easier than bringing about a substantial change in morality.

User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2023
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by macsforme » Sun May 17, 2009 8:11 am

dexter wrote:FiringSquad, I don't think you can confine players to team chat only, it's either /mute all chat or none. Guess silencing would work best.
This could be done with a plugin.

quantum dot
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:19 pm
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by quantum dot » Sun May 17, 2009 8:11 pm

I am afraid I have to share snick's view on this matter. I would like it to be different but the situation is as snick describes it.
Don't let school interfere with your education.
Mark Twain

smoooth
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Mon May 18, 2009 12:43 am

I will also have to agree with snick on this matter. You have to look at the past and be certain that people have cheated and will likely not be the last ones. In my opinion it is desirable to know when something questionable stands out so we can evaluate what is going on. I think people misinterpret "?" as a "you're cheating" but really I believe its just questioning a shot... How did it miss? Doesn't necessarily imply cheating or anything.

If people have thrus on me I want to know about it. I want to make sure that I am upholding my "morality" as snick describes.

The "?" can be used as a reality check for both players and help in troubleshooting problems. Only those that have cheating on their mind take its interpretation as such...

smoooth

smoooth
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Mon May 18, 2009 1:13 am

Maybe we should ask why people are typing "?"; I think what we are leading into here is this:

1. The goal is to have all things as equal as possible and have a true test of hand eye coordination and strategy.

This is however FAR from what is going on. What is happening is that people are manipulating configuration files, finding flaws, using enhanced mouse speeds, downgrading clients, enhancing lag, and using inside knowledge to get an unequal game.

Although the rules have gotten better, I think they need some additional work still. We have limits for radar size (30) but we have no shot length limit. We allow clients that have a fullscreen radar and ones that don't. There is no consistency.

We allow people to manipulate the config file. We shouldn't do this. I think we should allow no manipulations and go by only what the HUD GUI allows people to change. The problem is when you let players begin to modify the .config they see how simple it is to go a little bit further and hax the game code. Not to mention we are now going away from a skill based game to a knowledge based game.

I don't agree that people should use 60 - 90 shot length. How bogus. It's basically adding a radar path so you can not have any legitimate hand eye coordination. We shouldn't encourage this but discourage it. Which is why I use the limit imposed in the GUI -- 14. It's not fair to new players and basically makes all the "perceived" good players way better than they really are. Basically the game has no meaning as far as who is more "skilled" than the other. Because right now the game is not about skill -- it's about config files and other manipulations.

We need someone to provide a more complete standardized set of rules/configurations so IF people have the morality they know the standardized and legitimate way to play.

User avatar
slime
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:08 am
Location: Omaha , Nebraska
Contact:

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by slime » Mon May 18, 2009 4:27 am

It is already hard enough for the league admins to detect cheating, most notably subtle cheats. Adding rules against changing the config file would only make it harder to detect cheating, and would in effect add to the 'air of suspicion' being mentioned by FiringSquad. In other words, adding rules against changing the config file would cause more problems than it would fix.

The config file is allowed to be changed so players can alter their bzflag settings to the way they like it. Everyone has the ability to do this, so how can it be considered gaining an unequal game?
smoooth wrote:What is happening is that people are manipulating configuration files, finding flaws, using enhanced mouse speeds, downgrading clients, enhancing lag, and using inside knowledge to get an unequal game.
The ability to edit your above mentioned settings in the config are not bugs, but were left on purpose.

Also, using enhanced mouse speeds has already had a lengthy debate within the ducati league a while ago, where it was deemed 'legal'. No need to bring it up again.

I do agree with your inclusion of downgrading clients, though. Using older clients, most notably 2.0.2, only adds to the air of suspicion on the league.

smoooth
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Mon May 18, 2009 4:37 am

It's an unequal game because you are doing things outside the standard limits of the game, which is the GUI. You are limiting the effect of true skills of common players by that which is only achieved by knowledge of long time players who manipulate the config file to maximum.

What I am asking for slime is a standardized "This is how we play" list.

Example, but not complete:
1. Shot Length = max 14
2. Radar size = max 30
3. FPS = min 30

Everyone wants to "leave" in what's good for them. The 2.0.2 people want old clients "legal." The shot length "30" people want shot length left alone. The hax people want all modified code to be legal.

What I am saying is -- Let the game decide. Just use whats "IN" the HUD GUI. Make THAT the official standard for play.

We'll be able to "tell" who the cheaters are by just seeing if they dodge every bullet left and right. It's pretty obvious who is using enhancements. Because you can just watch a tank and tell if there is"perfect" dodging before a standard shot length gets to them.

The problem is, you and everyone else isn't willing to give up their "edge." Which is the exact reason 2.0.2 is still legal. So although all the supposed honest players dont want hax, they want their little modifications left in.

I am trying to go above it all and say -- lets standardize. Let's use the game defaults only, but I could compromise to ANY set of standards -- but someone needs to set them.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest