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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Mucho Maas » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:08 pm

FiringSquad wrote: I'm not sure why a closed-source binary client-authentication plug-in would be such a problem.
Could you tell me briefly why it would be so bad?.
Though a closed source client authentication plug-in conforms to the LGPL, if it is a plug-in, and therefor a dynamically loaded library, that library can be loaded and used by any self-compiled client. The code for loading and utilizing that plug-in is part of the client, and thus remains LGPL.
So the client authentication plug-in can only (if at all) verify if the authentication plug-in is genuine, but can not securely make any assumptions about the client that loaded the plug-in.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Saturos » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:11 pm

smooooth wrote:The argument is essentially over about the config files stuff.
It is essentially about config files stuff? Oh my god. I thought we were talking about cheating. You want to go through the hassle of creating a closed source binary because people use different configs? I thought we left the config discussion behind already. If you had invested the time it took you to write all these posts here in writing a "beginner's guide to config tuning", you would have made the playing field a lot more equal already.
I say it again.. the closed source idea wont happen. Its too much work, too complicated for beginners, too easy to break, too likely the algorithm will leak out. Whom do you intend to write the super secret closed source binary? I dont think theres one person everybody trusts. snick's offer to help is fantastic, but I bet somebody would instantly yell that he could cheat with that knowledge. It is essentially an open-source binary for those who build the closed source binaries. So who does this job? Not even talking about the problem to find a good algorithm which wont be haxed instantly. What do we do if at some point we realize somebody is cheating anyways because he broke into our algorithms? Force the whole league to upgrade their client weekly? I'll bet the league will be dead very quickly. BZ has always been a pick up and play game, no 2GB installers, no online verification, no loading times and all the crap you get from commercial games. The worst thing we can do is making it even more complicated to get into the league.
If we had all focused on doing something useful instead of writing 100 posts about configs and closed source binaries we could have archieved far more than we do with this discussion. Go, write a good tutorial on config tuning. Beginners will appreciate that.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:26 pm

Foo wrote:
FiringSquad wrote: I'm not sure why a closed-source binary client-authentication plug-in would be such a problem.
Could you tell me briefly why it would be so bad?.
Though a closed source client authentication plug-in conforms to the LGPL, if it is a plug-in, and therefor a dynamically loaded library, that library can be loaded and used by any self-compiled client. The code for loading and utilizing that plug-in is part of the client, and thus remains LGPL.
So the client authentication plug-in can only (if at all) verify if the authentication plug-in is genuine, but can not securely make any assumptions about the client that loaded the plug-in.
The plug-in could check what loaded it ;)

More seriously, there is "other stuff" that can be done without a closed binary.

Again, I cannot talk about it here for obvious reasons.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by khazhyk » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:14 pm

Hey, since I just noticed that you guys are still fighting over how config files are cheating since not everyone knows how to edit them, why don't you expand the wiki article and refer players to it? Oh, no, that's right. That'd actually solve a problem, and then you guys wouldn't have anything to fight about.

Sorry I suggested it.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:48 pm

Saturos,

The problem is that no has written a config file howto becuase they all feel it is restricted information I suppose. No where on the gu league site does it link to or have any instuctions on how to make you shot length 120 or how to use your fps to get extra long jumps. Not to mention I am not the person to be writing that because I don't use or know all the little config haxs. I played for years and years and never realized I could make my shot length longer in the config than I could in the gui. You can't do that with radar size. Believe me about 70 of the league does not know all the tricks. People don't like to share their tricks because it gives them a cheap hand up on the competition.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by khazhyk » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:59 pm

The problem is that no has written a config file howto becuase they all feel it is restricted information I suppose.
Fix it then. Get rid of that feeling. You are right, the problem is that no one has written a config file how-to.
No where on the gu league site does it link to or have any instuctions on how to make you shot length 120
So fix it? No one is going to link to a non-existent article. You know why? Because it doesn't exist.
Not to mention I am not the person to be writing that because I don't use or know all the little config haxs.
Neither am I, but I'm doing my best to share what I know, you should too.
I played for years and years and never realized I could make my shot length longer in the config than I could in the gui.
Oh hey, I think that just supported my argument. Educate the masses! (or the not so massive masses).
Believe me about 70 of the league does not know all the tricks.
So teach them about it? *sigh*
People don't like to share their tricks because it gives them a cheap hand up on the competition.
O rly?
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by macsforme » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:23 pm

Foo wrote:Though a closed source client authentication plug-in conforms to the LGPL, if it is a plug-in, and therefor a dynamically loaded library, that library can be loaded and used by any self-compiled client. The code for loading and utilizing that plug-in is part of the client, and thus remains LGPL.
A closed-source "authentication library," or whatever you want to call it, does not need to be dynamically linked to be compliant with the LGPL restrictions BZFlag has. As long as provide the source for the derivative client you create to link to your library, there is no problem linking to a closed-source library.

However, an "authentication library" is probably not what we are talking about when speaking of releasing binaries. Something that would work better is using a closed-source library that implements a network protocol modification or encryption to make it difficult to reverse-engineer. Otherwise, there is nothing really preventing someone from using a standard (or modified of their own) client.
smoooth wrote:The problem is that no has written a config file howto becuase they all feel it is restricted information I suppose. No where on the gu league site does it link to or have any instuctions on how to make you shot length 120 or how to use your fps to get extra long jumps. Not to mention I am not the person to be writing that because I don't use or know all the little config haxs. I played for years and years and never realized I could make my shot length longer in the config than I could in the gui. You can't do that with radar size. Believe me about 70 of the league does not know all the tricks. People don't like to share their tricks because it gives them a cheap hand up on the competition.
Some things are learned by experience. Do all the beginners need to know every element of gameplay for the league to be fair? Tweaking your config to best suit your needs is something a player should do for himself/herself over a period of time to find out what works best for him/her. As for some of the "tricks" like pyr shots or fps jumps, there are many experienced players willing to discuss them, you just need to find them at the right time. Again, it comes with practice and experience... nobody wants a totally even playing field or there would be no motivation to practice and improve.

Also, what are "config haxs"? If a config setting can be modified to improve a player's ability and the rules do not prohibit it, then it is a "setting" or a "configuration", or at the very worst, a "trick." There is nothing "hax" about it. I wish you would stop smearing people by referring to a benign tactic using terminology associated with cheaters.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:58 pm

Me1,

The problem me1 is that not all people know how to "edit" a config. The other people in this league are the ones who know all the tricks and they should write it however many of them keep those things closely to themselves.

Everyone thinks that leaving config files open for "editting" is great. I have mentioned this before that I found a flaw on a specific platform by which I edit the config which makes my tank virtually unhittable. It is completely legal. Everyone will start scratching their heads, how is this possible what is it? They will all be saying tell me tell me tell me. Doing crap in the config is bogus. People are clearly doing things outside the bounds of what is intended. Text configs are fine if you check all input from the file to the game.

See, if you take out the "text" portion out of the configuration and put it into a gui and a controlled binary. Everyone has the same possible inputs which is easily understandable by the average player.

Constitution,

My apologies const, I should not refer to config file changes as hax. However, in my opinion many of them act as hax because they are configurations not intended for. They are not abundantly obvious or published, essentially underground knowledge by the few to have a adv. over the common player. I know many seasoned players who don't know these configurations.

All I wish people would see if that there is a better way to make the game more equal to all players of all knowledge levels. Believe it or not there are many that don't know how to edit a config file. You may say all is fair. Well when I show up with my unhittable tank because I have a legal config setting , i will hear no complaints. Think about it. Then you may be coming back to me and saying, maybe smoooth is on to something here.

smoooth

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:53 pm

You keep repeating yourself. Smoooth, you think everyone thinks and acts like you. If your tank was unhittable, which I don't think is possible by just changing your config settings and keeping things still playable for you, I wouldn't care. You keep saying that these configurations were not intended for, like? And apparently 70% of the league doesn't know all the tricks, statistics are based on proof, where's yours. Why are you avoiding the task of just writing up something? YOU are the person who feels this way, not necessarily everyone else.
As to all your "everyone keeps their config hidden" thing. Think about it. Configs are what make players unique. It's basically your personality in a text file. :) I don't want everyone to 1. have access to it whenever they like and 2. to be able to just use it whenever they like. It's something I spent a lot of time tweaking and testing. I don't care about an advantage or disadvantage by config settings. I, unlike you, think skill is based on a LOT more than just settings.

Nothing you say or do will make me think smoooth is on to something here. I'm going to take over the ask of writing a How-To post on the weekend. Not because I think it's dearly necessary, but just so people will stop making this thread go five more pages. It's repetitive. I'm happy to work on this with anyone who feels like they want to contribute.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:00 pm

That's very generous of you dexter.
I look forward to reading it.
I just tried setting my "linedradarshots" to 120. Wow! it was mental.
I could probably get used to it so that it would provide some advantage, but for now I'm resetting it. Too many white lines on the radar. :)

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 pm

Dexter,

All I have suggested is these two things:

1. Making a GU binary to cut down on cheating
2. Placing all the config options in the GUI

Is that really so bad?

I am not taking away your precious config, just placing it entirely in the gui. It should be the same right?

You talk so much about skill and then said you spend lots of time tweaking and manipulating the config. If its all about skill then why screw with the config? I agree configs are good personality things, no problems with them. Just put them in the GUI and make release a binary.

You're missing the message which is people aren't all technically competent as you and myself, and therefore putting them at disadvantage. Maybe you don't cabout about that, and that's fine. I feel for myself that I have unfair advantage over some because I'm technically capable. Just saying it will make it more fair to new comers and the non-technically capable.

I know you're going to comeback with "well binaries are impossible." I'm here to tell you they are not. They are easy. These fixes could be done with minimal effort.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by smoooth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:12 pm

The reason I have to repeat myself dexter is that people read what I say and still don't understand what I am trying to do. I tried to make that as simple as possible in the last post.

Seems our long time player FS didn't know he could have a shot length 120. FS has been playing for many many years. How fair would it be for a TRUE new player? If you're looking for statistics and proof, there it is.

smoooth

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Bambino » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:25 pm

smoooth wrote:Dexter,

All I have suggested is these two things:

1. Making a GU binary to cut down on cheating
2. Placing all the config options in the GUI
Why wouldn't the people who really want to cheat find so way to hack the client?
There's a lot of options in the config, it might/would take up to much space in the GUI, maybe over a page of settings.

Just edit and add things to the config editing part of the wiki and make a "How to" post somewhere for all the noobs to read to it's an even playing field and we can stop calling config edits "hax". I doubt a GU only client will ever work out.

My 2 Cents.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by blast » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:03 pm

The real problem is that Notepad is just too confusing for people to use! I think we should sue Microsoft for making it so complex.</sarcasm>

This discussion is getting silly. If people don't know how to edit a text file, what do you think a good solution would be? I'm pretty sure you can tell them how to open it with a text editor like Notepad or Kate or whatever it might be. Then all you need to do is document what the various settings do.

Also, do you realize you don't need to edit the config file by hand to change most (or any) of the settings? The /localset command can set lots of settings (some of them require that you restart the client to take effect, but you can still do it). There is also a /bind command that you can use to map new keys.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by FiringSquad » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:43 am

OK Let's not make this personal.
I think we actually agree on 99% of the issues.

To Re-cap:
  • The League should be made as fair as possible.
  • Accusations of cheating, even when veiled, should be stamped out by the Admins.
  • Config settings and their effects should be well-documented.
  • Proprietry binary distributions of BZFlag, for use in the league, are illegal and will not be supported.
  • A binary plug-in is legal but is not likely to be supported in the standard release. (see here)
  • Placing all config options in the GUI would be unlikely to be supported by the developers because of the added complexity to both the screen-layout and the code.
  • If some legal config option provides such an advantage that it becomes unfair, then this should be reported as a bug and such configurations should be prevented by BZFlag.
Perhaps Notepad/TextEdit is not the most appropriate editor.
I'm considering developing an editor that would read in and XML file with the options along with a short description and hints about suggested settings. The editor would read your existing config file and allow you to navigate through it, one setting at a time. For each setting, a description would be given along with the valid ranges (although there would be no checking by the editor) and advice about the possibilities. I could create it pretty quickly for the Mac, but it would require a lot more thought if I'm to make it multi-platform. I'm not familiar with the various opensource libraries available that would facilitate such an app. Also, I'm not sure yet how I'd handle the key-bindings.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by blast » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:02 am

Write a configuration editor in C# and use mono to run it on non-Windows platforms. You would be able to use that same binary on any OS that Mono supports, including linux and OSX.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by plasma kaz » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:50 am

smoooth wrote:
Everyone thinks that leaving config files open for "editting" is great. I have mentioned this before that I found a flaw on a specific platform by which I edit the config which makes my tank virtually unhittable. It is completely legal. Everyone will start scratching their heads, how is this possible what is it? They will all be saying tell me tell me tell me. Doing crap in the config is bogus. People are clearly doing things outside the bounds of what is intended. Text configs are fine if you check all input from the file to the game.


Well when I show up with my unhittable tank because I have a legal config setting , i will hear no complaints. Think about it. Then you may be coming back to me and saying, maybe smoooth is on to something here.

smoooth
I'm genuinely planning to take you up on that. :mrgreen:
Seriously though, im going to get ya in a 1vs1 match server with me. I want to see what you're talking about. Make sure your "config hax" are on and your tank is still "unhittable" before the game, don't want any later excuses :D
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by dexter » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:25 am

smoooth wrote:You talk so much about skill and then said you spend lots of time tweaking and manipulating the config. If its all about skill then why screw with the config?'
lol. Don't you get it? Of course having a good config is a premise of being skilled. None of the top players play with the default config, simply because it's not made for GU League play and everyone has different preferences. Don't you see that? We edit our configs because we play better with radar 25 and not 10 or shot length 35 and not 5. It's not about getting an unfair advantage, but what suits you best. Nobody 'screws' with the config. You change settings to your preferences. That's all.

Here's an example, so you'll understand even better: Professional soccer players. They're not good because of their shoes or the balls they play with, they're good because of their talent. Yet, these players spend great amounts of time designing their gear and perfecting it. So they can get the best possible result. Think of the config as your sports gear. You don't want to play with any shoe or ball. You want a good one, that will help you be more accurate and better for your game.

I think the only thing we should bother doing, is writing up a detailed explanation of all the settings and what they do. Like I said, that will happen either today or tomorrow. :) Anything else will just be countered by cheaters. Where there's a will there's a way. Nothing we do will stop the ruthless people from doing what they do best.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:26 pm

Ok, I think we're heading in a positive direction. The config editor and config
documentation ideas sound extremely good.

This thread now seems to be about fairness in general. And a few different
sources of unfairness are being discussed together. So let's summarize them.

Code: Select all

(1) Config files. Already being addressed to an extent. Great.

(2) Cheating. The closed or partially-closed binary solution it out. 
    Even if possible, there is not enough support from the admins
    for this to happen. So we continue to rely on the old methods.

(3) Bugs. Not really being addressed seriously. This one is incredibly
    important. Do you know a shot can go through the middle of your
    tank and not blow it up? Do you know you can capture a flag after
    you have died? Or that some players are much harder to hit than
    you just because they run at a higher framerate?
I suggest we seriously consider fixing the bugs. Some people are getting an unfair
advantage from them. Don't get me wrong: these players are not necessarily trying
to cheat. The advantage they get can be unintentional and they may not even be
aware of it. And so many of these honest players would likely be happy to use a GU
client in which the bugs had fixed. Believe it or not, there are people who like to do
the right thing :)

So, I would suggest:

An optional GU client. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. The client will
have both bug fixes, and allow one or two extra settings to be accessed from the
GUI (not the whole lot - just a few). And we can allow a size 40 radar so that people
get the advantage of an up to date client, with security fixes applied, and don't have
to rely on 2.0.2.

So, what do you think? Can we have a poll on this perhaps?

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by Mucho Maas » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:16 pm

I think the discussion mixes two different aspects of configuration values:
  • Bugs and side effects with configuration values
  • Leveling the playing field
About bugs and side effects with configuration values:
My suggestion remains: If you feel that the bzflag client allows ranges for configuration values that you think are "inappropriate" because they have an impact on the playability of the game, discuss this with the developers of the game and see if it makes sense to add a range restriction for the next major release. There are already several configuration values for which the value range is restricted. That's technically and practically the best solution, as this handles values both set through /localset as well as configuration file settings. But also learn to listen to their reasons if they decide against a particular range restriction.
I also think there are some configuration values where a range restriction would be beneficial. Maybe it would make sense to compile a list and suggest them on the bzflag project page. But I am not going to run around and demand this of every player when the developers see no problem with it.

About leveling the playing field:
It is true, that if bzflag would not have the possibility of changing certain settings, nobody would complain. Think of early bzflag versions where the radar size was fixed. The game was what is was then, and it was a fun game. Now there are many things that can be tweaked, which were designed to be tweaked. The game has changed slightly from then, and it's still a fun game. The game is today what it is today.
There is no big cash involved, neither for the developers, not for GU league admins, nor for players. Everyone is doing this for the fun of it. You determine how competitive you want to take this. Very naturally the competitive attitude is different for everyone involved and I think it's wrong to imperially enforce an equal mindset on all players. Ofcourse it stings when I loose a match which I think I should have won, and feel joy when won a game which was hard to win. But I do very well there without the need of having to compare myself with everyone else, and compare my configuration setting with everyone else. I play on a laptop with not a very big screen, slow processor, bad eyesight and lack of concentration. But i'd be damned if I wanted to enforce the same conditions for everybody else. If I would wanted be a more competitive, I'd buy better equipment, new glasses and eat lots of ginger. But I would not start a campaign against eating ginger and wearing glasses for league playing. Maybe that's just me.
snick wrote:So, I would suggest:

An optional GU client. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. The client will
have both bug fixes, and allow one or two extra settings to be accessed from the
GUI (not the whole lot - just a few). And we can allow a size 40 radar so that people
get the advantage of an up to date client, with security fixes applied, and don't have
to rely on 2.0.2.

So, what do you think? Can we have a poll on this perhaps?
And that sounds like a good idea.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:23 pm

Foo wrote:About bugs and side effects with configuration values:
My suggestion remains: If you feel that the bzflag client allows ranges for configuration values that you think are "inappropriate" because they have an impact on the playability of the game, discuss this with the developers of the game and see if it makes sense to add a range restriction for the next major release.
It is doubtful there will ever be another major release.

I've spoken to a number of people inside "the project".

They've told me BZFlag 3.0 will likely never be released.

I'll be delighted if they're wrong, but we should assume
until we learn otherwise that any fixes that are needed
we must do ourselves.

Cheers.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by blast » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:29 pm

Again, I ask that you test those "bugs" in version 2.99.x (svn trunk development code). Some of them may have been addressed already. You can't get over 200FPS in 2.99.x, as we limit it. Screenshots no longer cause the client to freeze up. Low framerates shouldn't have as big of an effect since the client will run physics simulations in multiple sections of the difference in time is too large. So lots of stuff has been fixed. (And of course, stuff might be broken or not work as "advertised", as it's in development - but that's why you should test it!)

The reason some things are not fixed in 2.0.x is because we couldn't do so without breaking protocol. The protocol is more than just the network messages - It's also how the client behaves. So really, now is the time to suggest changes. Otherwise you might have to wait until BZFlag 4.0.0...


And 3.0.0 will come out. Just have patience.
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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:26 pm

blast wrote:Again, I ask that you test those "bugs" in version 2.99.x (svn trunk development code). Some of them may have been addressed already.
*sigh*

This is starting to get me irritated now. Oh well, time to reboot and grab the SVN code..

Ok, I've downloaded the very latest SVN 2.99.x and - quelle surprise! - no, the bugs are
not fixed. Not even close to being fixed. It looks like everything I mentioned on IRC has
been completely ignored. Would love to think otherwise, but there's no indication of that.

Code: Select all

 You can't get over 200FPS in 2.99.x, as we limit it. 
Matters not a jot. There are still humongous hit zone differences between, say, 30fps
and 200fps. The dt slicing approach wasn't fine enough, IIRC, to eliminate the bug's
effects.

Code: Select all

Screenshots no longer cause the client to freeze up.
You know why? Because I sorta fixed it, matey :)

Nothing was happening on that front until I came along with my proof of concept
fix for OS X. Not that I want particular credit for that. But you seem to think I
have no idea what's in the BZFlag 2.99.x code.

Code: Select all

 Low framerates shouldn't have as big of an effect since the client will run physics simulations in multiple sections of the difference in time is too large.  
That's great. So when will we get the advantage of it? When is version 3.0 coming out?

Rough date will do. Most well-managed projects have at least provisional dates for
their major releases.

Code: Select all

The reason some things are not fixed in 2.0.x is because we couldn't do so without 
breaking protocol.  
Yes, and some other things could be easily fixed without breaking protocol. Some of
the fixes are, in fact, completely and utterly trivial. E.g., one bug requires a microscopic
little fix in a header file. Here it is:

BZ 2.99.x/include/common.h:

Code: Select all

#define ZERO_TOLERANCE 0.00005f
BZ 2.0.10/include/common.h:

Code: Select all

#  define ZERO_TOLERANCE 1.0e-06f
The bug that fixes is exploited every day of the week by GU players. It puts OS X
players at a relative disadvantage because it affects them most. That could easily
be backported to BZ 2.0.x.
And 3.0.0 will come out. Just have patience.
The word "patience" is not in my dictionary :)

Cheers!

Snick.

ps I hope that's not too confrontational. I just want to see stuff being done. That's all.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by JeffM » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:46 pm

"stuff " doesn't get done unless people do it.

Notice that he said that some of it MAY have been addressed, not that it magically was. Saying some stuff in IRC is great, but don't expect that to be a complete or detailed bug report that people will just jump on.

You Could always submit a patch, or come into IRC and talk about your ideas (in a civil manner) about how to fix it instead of complaining.

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Re: ?, thru, what? wtf? etc.

Post by snick » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:16 pm

JeffM wrote:"stuff " doesn't get done unless people do it.

Notice that he said that some of it MAY have been addressed, not that it magically was. Saying some stuff in IRC is great, but don't expect that to be a complete or detailed bug report that people will just jump on.

You Could always submit a patch, or come into IRC and talk about your ideas (in a civil manner) about how to fix it instead of complaining.
I fixed it months ago. I tested it experimentally. Then, the real world test:
I had people shoot at me on a server. Nobody complained, it all looked pretty
good. Now, that's the easy part, finding the bug and fixing it. Getting you guys
do anything about it is the hard part. Because, you know, I can't just go and
stuff it into the SVN codebase myself. I have to go through some tortuous
process convincing one of you to actually do something.

So I mentioned my fix in IRC. You and other devs were there. I linked to the
pastebinned code and I have better code now. Essentially, you had what you
needed for the fix. It was all there for you on a plate. And what did you do
with it?

Nothing.

You know all reported tank deaths are off by half a tank's height? When
I mentioned this all you guys could do was criticize telling me how could I
know this?

It's like 6 characters you need to add to fix that. I mentioned it in IRC. Just
any dev could have thrown the changes in right there, right at that moment.

That's not been done either.

This is not dificult guys :)

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