RULES

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smoooth
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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:31 pm

Has it crossed your mind that you may be the only one who wants the game restricted to such a basic level?
Has it crossed your mind that I might NOT be only person? Even slime expressed above anything with the word "auto" in front of it, is not a good idea -- and I completely agreed. (macros and other auto things should be disallowed if outside the game)
Personally I find it intriguing when people play with configurations and drivers/tools to do cool things nobody thought about before (obviously "new" things that are degrading to gameplay, like the discovery of the F5 trick, are not beneficial and are outlawed after being discussed by the admins). It's not like everyone else can't go out and buy the same hardware or use the same tools...
You are funny Constitution -- this is the second time in this discussion that you've asked a question and then disputed/answered it yourself. Here you say "new tools and tricks are good" then you say "new" things like "F5 are bad or degrading to game play." This is the exact point. Yes, F5 is illegal and bad. Now lets imagine if you have other "tools" that do things like F5 but don't ever tell anyone and are never made "illegal". This will give a person unfair advantage. This is why we have to limit things which open up the opportunity to degrade gameplay.

So really, I don't see how the playing field is so "unequal" as you are claiming.
See above.

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Re: RULES

Post by macsforme » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:57 am

smoooth wrote:Has it crossed your mind that I might NOT be only person? Even slime expressed above anything with the word "auto" in front of it, is not a good idea -- and I completely agreed. (macros and other auto things should be disallowed if outside the game)
Yes; and the only way I can judge that is by what I hear from other people (which is one of my responsibilities as an admin to listen to). Slime's quote was in the context of patches, while you used it in the context of external tools or drivers (e.g., setpoint). I would generally agree that code modifications to do things automatically (e.g., aimbot) are not good for the league. Why autospawn is in the whitelist, I do not know, but at the same time I don't know of a single person who uses it.

My point as that if you want to see rules changed, you're going to have to more than express your own opinions. If you really have the backing of like 50% of the league, you will have to demonstrate that or we will be left to believe that few people really want the changes you're proposing.
smoooth wrote:
Personally I find it intriguing when people play with configurations and drivers/tools to do cool things nobody thought about before (obviously "new" things that are degrading to gameplay, like the discovery of the F5 trick, are not beneficial and are outlawed after being discussed by the admins)
You are funny Constitution
Thanks.
smoooth wrote:-- this is the second time in this discussion that you've asked a question and then disputed/answered it yourself. Here you say "new tools and tricks are good" then you say "new" things like "F5 are bad or degrading to game play." This is the exact point. Yes, F5 is illegal and bad. Now lets imagine if you have other "tools" that do things like F5 but don't ever tell anyone and are never made "illegal". This will give a person unfair advantage. This is why we have to limit things which open up the opportunity to degrade gameplay.
If you read what I said more carefully, I was not saying that all new tricks are degrading, but rather that the ones that are degrading are the ones that are brought up for discussion and then outlawed. I made a general statement and then added a parenthetical qualifier, which is not a contradiction. It seems like you are claiming that mouse macros are as degrading to gameplay as jittering around with F5. If that is the opinion of the majority, you are welcome to try to demonstrate that. Personally, I disagree with that assertion... unlike F5, using a mouse macro only makes a repeated tank action easier to do consistently, and can generally be replicated (albeit perhaps with difficulty) in normal gameplay.

So really... does anyone want these significant changes to the rules besides you? As I've said before, I've not heard a complaint about mouse macros from anyone other than yourself. That pretty much puts that idea in context for me... how about you?

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Re: RULES

Post by Zac » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:45 am

While this post is rapidly degrading from a discussion into an argument i feel inclined to make a point. approximately 10 people have posted here (didn't count properly) which means that we are only getting the opinions from the people who actually seem to care.. while most the points made are probably valid, i doubt much would be done until this thread (or another like it) begins to collect opinions from a majority of league players, more importantly the ones who are actually in a team. in your GU website profile smoooth you quote "the league is dead", and on top of this you don't even belong in a team. couple those 2 things together and you don't actually get a very influential player. "why would people change the rules based on someone who doesn't even participate". while limited to a rather small amount of people, the opinions posted here are the largest basis by which to changes, and most people have agreed, your being a little picky. smoooth, find a few other players willing to post an opinion (preferably in your favour :) ) and then make your point with them backing you. it makes for a much more powerful argument.

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Re: RULES

Post by Jacko H » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:09 am

@ consti
I would like it restricted then it's even not the person with the newest gear. Then it comes down to skill
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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:23 pm

I generally agree that there should be a consensus by the majority of the players to change the rules. The only problem with that is unfortunately people don't read these messageboard or the rules for that matter. Also there is no "method" for allowing people to "vote" on something. That is something that should also be instituted, which I have mentioned to admins before. Have a voting system to allow the players to vote on stuff. It's a simple feedback method to get an idea of what the league is "thinking." Right now the league is only represented by the admins and honestly I don't think half the admins are as involved or play the game regularly. Do we need to "vote" to institute a "voting system"? There is no means in the current system to actualy represent the players wants or thoughts. Also people typically shy away from the admins because of their zero tolerance for anything that is different the the norm. Disagree with an admin, Ban, make a wrong comment, Ban. There is no feedback because the admin board keeps the users very afraid to say anything at all. This is the environment hopefully someone on the adminship will realize one day and try to make a change for the better.

An analogy is that of a society in a dictatorship. The people are afraid and won't challenge the dictator in fear for their lives. The dictator employs what he feels is best regardles of what the people want. Nothing will ever change unless the dictator gives the power back to the people or the dictator is overthrown. Unfortunately neither of those has happened here.

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Re: RULES

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:01 pm

smoooth wrote:There is no feedback because the admin board keeps the users very afraid to say anything at all.
Interesting speculation. The only way to prove that is true is to create a forum that excludes admins so players feel free to speak their minds. If you'll make that happen, smoooth, you can be an instrument of real change.

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Re: RULES

Post by ts » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:25 am

Constitution wrote:Some drivers allow the creation of macros to do things such as repeating the same action three times (automatic triple). First, I don't hear a great cry out against these macros. Only a few people I know of use them, and several others have tried them and don't like them. Personally, I think it's a cool effect and I would hate to restrict creativity or the discovery of new methods for improving one's game. If over 50% of the population were against macros, that might be a different story. I only remember ever hearing one person complain about the use of macros, and that person is the original poster.

So, I don't believe that drivers or control panels qualify as "external tools" in that sense (especially since they are explicitly allowed), and even if they did, I have never seen an example of the use of such a driver or control panel to allow multiple different tank actions with one button (only the same action repeated several times). Hence, I do not believe it is a real issue.
The whitelist was not published because it would be nice to have one in the first place. It was a reaction about a complaint that was a reaction about what was only discovered as side effect of a sanity check. So yes, there was at least one case. However that clause did not seem to be relevant in ban discussions later, simply because this rule wasn't violated afterwards.

A nice effect of the whitelist is that it clarifies to some degree what is ok and what is not. I believe some also now know I'd straight say ban during polls in grey cases if the player did not ask previously.
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Re: RULES

Post by snick » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:55 am

I'm not in favour of three-eyed players. Unfair imo.

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Re: RULES

Post by mana » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:13 pm

Constitution wrote:Why autospawn is in the whitelist, I do not know, but at the same time I don't know of a single person who uses it.
As far as I remember it was included because it fixed a game issue for somebody on a special platform who otherwise could not spawn in the game. I do not remember the details, neither who it was nor what platform it was. This patch probably can be removed from the list if the "auto" in it's name confuses people. ;)

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Re: RULES

Post by quantum dot » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:07 am

smoooth wrote: Also people typically shy away from the admins because of their zero tolerance for anything that is different the the norm. Disagree with an admin, Ban, make a wrong comment, Ban. There is no feedback because the admin board keeps the users very afraid to say anything at all. This is the environment hopefully someone on the adminship will realize one day and try to make a change for the better.

An analogy is that of a society in a dictatorship. The people are afraid and won't challenge the dictator in fear for their lives. The dictator employs what he feels is best regardles of what the people want. Nothing will ever change unless the dictator gives the power back to the people or the dictator is overthrown. Unfortunately neither of those has happened here.
This statement is very unjust. We have never banned anyone for a wrong comment, if by wrong you understand mistaken. We have banned people for insulting players, sending bzmails with personal insults and nasty language. These are not "wrong comments" but "wrong attitudes". Players are not afraid to say anything, they know they cannot use nasty language in our servers that is pretty simple. Everyone can understand that.
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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:36 am

This statement is very unjust. We have never banned anyone for a wrong comment, if by wrong you understand mistaken. We have banned people for insulting players, sending bzmails with personal insults and nasty language. These are not "wrong comments" but "wrong attitudes". Players are not afraid to say anything, they know they cannot use nasty language in our servers that is pretty simple. Everyone can understand that.
Yes sir! It is as you say! (100% of the players nod their heads in unison)

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Re: RULES

Post by quantum dot » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:03 pm

smoooth wrote: Yes sir! It is as you say! (100% of the players nod their heads in unison)
here you have another statistics that you just made up out of the blue :lol-old:
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Re: RULES

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:05 am

Well speaking of statistics, over 99% of players in the league play with more than the average number of fingers.
I'm fine with that. I was born with more than the average number of fingers and I don't think i should be penalised for that.

(BTW I have 10 fingers, just in case you were wondering. The average number of fingers is less than 10)

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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:20 pm

We are all just a bunch of drones nodding our heads waiting for our gu admin leader to tell us what is good and bad. Please oh great leaders show us what is right and wrong in your eyes. Waiting for how the gu admin feels that day to determine if what we did was good or bad, or how long we might be banned. A dictatorship could even set some solid rules, that would be a step forward.

Where is your sense of freedom and self governance?

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Re: RULES

Post by macsforme » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:19 pm

Smoooth, I challenge you to cite one example of when what you are saying actually occurred.

Every time you were banned (that I can think of), the reason was clearly posted in the Bans section of the league website; and the reasons were not "opposed admins." Before I was an admin, I never felt threatened or intimidated by admins not to voice a contrary opinion.

I will admit, there are some things that we consider "core aspects" of the GU League which make the game like it is and will probably never change. The fact that only 30 minute matches are allowed may be one of these. However, I believe that GU Admins are generally receptive to new ideas, and the reaction is never to punish players for speaking out.

I have recently noticed your tendency to speak out with "facts" you appeared to have invented yourself with little or no actual basis or support. I only say this because people tend to believe one who makes statements confidently, even when those statements lack factual basis. Therefore, sometimes I feel it is necessary for someone else to put your comments in perspective. While constructive arguments are almost always useful, bizarre statements and baseless accusations are always counter-productive.

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Re: RULES

Post by kierra » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:14 pm

/me gives smooth a reality check.
Players have had the option of sharing ideas, opinions, & complaints here on the forums, in bz mails, in chats on servers and using the GU Admin league acct on the site. The challenge for some is presenting yourself in a respectful manner using decent language....not with sarcasm, not with personal attacks, bad language and such.
There are plenty of gu admins of varying personalities, technical skills and accessibility....find one you can talk to and approach them in a reasonable manner.
smooth: Where is your sense of freedom and self governance?
GU league was started by several players who invested their time in developing the league concept, rules for league play and a governing board. Some of the original leaders are still here and have chosen to surround themselves with additional admins to help shoulder the responsibilities of a well run league.
You want your own sense of freedom and self governance (ie you in control)? Start your own league with your own rules. No one is making you play here!

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We are all just a bunch of drones nodding our heads waiting for our gu admin leader to tell us what is good and bad.
If you all are the drones, then this queen bee says, "go play and quit whining or i'll give you something to whine about." :mrgreen: laugh, smoothiliscious, it'll do you good!
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Re: RULES

Post by Zac » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:29 pm

i think admins should look at the way they act. just today i was banned from a server during a fm, for saying "cheater", "hacks" and "h4x". apparently i was accusing cheats. did i target a specific player? no. did i do it over and over? no, i just said it 3 times, through 30 mins. did i even type it in a way that seemed even remotely accusatory? no!. sometimes, it's a simple, "please stop with that" and the problem is solved. instead im muted. and when i rejoined to escape the mute, purely because i wish to communicate with my teamates, im banned.

sure, ban me now for speaking up. but i can tell you exactly where you can shove that.
poor attitude? maybe. but you aren't exactly encouraging otherwise.

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Re: RULES

Post by blast » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:49 pm

Zac, I don't see how saying any of those could be considered anything but accusatory.
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Re: RULES

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:04 pm

Irony and sarcasm are rarely as obvious as one wants them to be in internet communications, and there is high risk that their use will be misinterpreted. Zac's story is a perfect illustration of this.

I understand that writing "cheater (just kidding)" ruins the joke, but just "cheater" leaves the recipient completely free to interpret according to their current state of mind (which is likely very different from the writer's).

"Lies" seems to be an acceptable way of expressing denial about a bad turn of events in BZFlag. Try using that next time.

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Re: RULES

Post by macsforme » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:26 am

Zac wrote:sometimes, it's a simple, "please stop with that" and the problem is solved. instead im muted. and when i rejoined to escape the mute, purely because i wish to communicate with my teamates, im banned.

sure, ban me now for speaking up. but i can tell you exactly where you can shove that.
poor attitude? maybe. but you aren't exactly encouraging otherwise.
I think you are actually confirming our own point of view... that players are banned for breaking rules, not because we're on a power trip. I think it's perfectly clear even from your own message what rule you broke... no public cheat accusations.

Since you've chosen to go public with your sentiments, I will also add that I warned you once that a ban could result, to which you replied by laughing. When I pointed out that it I didn't think it was that funny, you laughed again. After I muted you subsequent to a third occurrence, I didn't even ban you until you rejoined three times to evade the mute.

If you push the envelope, you will be dealt with... I hope you gain enough life experience to understand that. I, for one, know that many people are here just to have fun and don't have the patience to listen to someone slander and accuse other players because of latency problems which they created themselves.

And no, you're not being banned for speaking out... not you, nor anyone else.

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Re: RULES

Post by klavier » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:37 am

The biggest flaw I find in smoooth's original argument is that the league doesn't require rules. I believe that with a large, diverse admin team representative (for the most part) of the general player-base, we have little need for a carefully-pored-over, neatly written set of rules. It should actually be up to the admin whether or not someone's behavior is acceptable - it's really not difficult to tell. Secondly, with a fair warning, players will always know if they're out of line or not. If you, smoooth, want this to be a democracy, we don't need to run on a rigid set of rules for every aspect of behavior and gameplay. That, in my mind, is worse than any power-hungry admin banning everyone disagreeing with him.

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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:46 pm

kierra wrote:/me gives smooth a reality check.
Players have had the option of sharing ideas, opinions, & complaints here on the forums, in bz mails, in chats on servers and using the GU Admin league acct on the site. The challenge for some is presenting yourself in a respectful manner using decent language....not with sarcasm, not with personal attacks, bad language and such.
There are plenty of gu admins of varying personalities, technical skills and accessibility....find one you can talk to and approach them in a reasonable manner.
I have done this over and over. I even proposed some rule corrections. I also called out ANY admin to make ANY rule change and I predicted that not a single one would be made. This was well over two years ago and then again one year ago, I am still correct.

I will ask again on year 3. ANY admin make ANY rule change and I will call that progress. I'm not even saying a significant rule change. An easy one would be to not permit outdated clients (especially ones with major flaws) like 2.0.2. Even our good friend slime supported this earlier on in this thread. Don't listen to me, listen to him and others with a brain, and actually DO something instead of spending your time trying to convince me to "go with flow". I will always be here and I will always be trying to make things better, moving things along, instead of letting things rot and fester in a sea of disorganization and poor management. I don't know why people see me as the bad guy. Is it too much to expect to ask for things to be better? You don't even have to take my advice, come up with your own, try to move it forward. There is plenty of room for improvement. If you don't know what to do, then take a look at my ideas, I've put a good bit of thought into them.

I apologize for my sarcasm but honestly that is the only way to get anyone to listen here. If I ask nicely I guarantee nothing will be done, of course I guarantee nothing will be done either way.

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Re: RULES

Post by smoooth » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:11 pm

Constitution wrote:Smoooth, I challenge you to cite one example of when what you are saying actually occurred.

Every time you were banned (that I can think of), the reason was clearly posted in the Bans section of the league website; and the reasons were not "opposed admins." Before I was an admin, I never felt threatened or intimidated by admins not to voice a contrary opinion.

I will admit, there are some things that we consider "core aspects" of the GU League which make the game like it is and will probably never change. The fact that only 30 minute matches are allowed may be one of these. However, I believe that GU Admins are generally receptive to new ideas, and the reaction is never to punish players for speaking out.

I have recently noticed your tendency to speak out with "facts" you appeared to have invented yourself with little or no actual basis or support. I only say this because people tend to believe one who makes statements confidently, even when those statements lack factual basis. Therefore, sometimes I feel it is necessary for someone else to put your comments in perspective. While constructive arguments are almost always useful, bizarre statements and baseless accusations are always counter-productive.
You, yourself, just made a unsubstantiated claim by saying "..because people tend to believe one who makes statements confidently, even when those statements lack factual basis" -- that statement in and of itself is the same type of statement to which it is referring. You have no "factual" evidence for that "people tend to believe" anymore than I have for my arguement. It's not that I don't believe what your saying but you can't discredit my information unless you have something shown to the contrary. People's perceptions are often times a reflection of reality and honestly there is no reality that isn't skewed by the way someone views the situation, and naturally you have a well established admin bias. You can't speak from the position of being an average user, unless you are one. So until that day comes don't try to gather what being an average player is -- you need to ask one first.

As far as giving an example goes -- Zac just posted one above. He is in a different understanding of what is legal in regards to what is considered "accusing" and "not-accussing" and obviously the punishment is not standard, as such, he was not banned. I have been banned, for a signficant period of time i might add, for never even saying the word "cheat" or "hax". It's a complete double standard, -- that's also something that i'd like to see fixed.

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