League Site Theme

Discussion for GU League Players
User avatar
JeffM
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 5187
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:11 am
Location: https://github.com/OmniTanks
Contact:

League Site Theme

Post by JeffM » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:48 pm

The current site theme sucks, and some people are too scared to make a post about asking for a better one.

So all you web designers out there, MAKE ONE. and post it here. Then the site admins can make the best one the default.
ImageJeffM

User avatar
kierra
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Posts: 3913
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:02 am
Location: outer Slovenia
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by kierra » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:36 am

JeffM wrote:The current site theme sucks,
Theme design is subjective...depends on what you like obviously. Of all the choices offered, I happen to like theme 42. Does that mean there isn't room for change....NO! There is always room for improvement and adding more theme choices for players would be great.

On the whole, I think ts did an admirable job with site development, having invested many man hours. writing code, testing, etc. Those who criticize the site as being ugly can put some effort to constructive, clearly worded ideas for improvement and those with the skills to produce new themes should put their criticisms to work and submit some themes of their own for use on the site.
It's easy to complain that the site is ugly....but if you won't do anything constructive to fix it, maybe you should put up or shut up :)
"Sometimes people try to expose what's wrong with you, because they can't handle what's right about you."
"Measure your words -- they determine the distance of your relationships"

User avatar
JeffM
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 5187
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:11 am
Location: https://github.com/OmniTanks
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by JeffM » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:54 am

Yep.... Crickets... Just what I thought....
ImageJeffM

User avatar
FiringSquad
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: League Site Theme

Post by FiringSquad » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:08 pm

The site is still under construction and was introduced under extreme circumstances, namely the previous site was hacked and destroyed and the previous hoster was AWOL with no way of contacting them, so it could not be repaired.
Given how quickly the new site was available, I think we all owe ts and his helpers a big thanks.
Frankly, ts is exhausted after getting it up and running and complaints about cosmetic problems are falling on deaf ears.
There are still a few bugs to be fixed, some of them in the background that the normal user is not aware of, and once these are sewn up and ts has had a well-deserved rest, I'm sure these cosmetic problems will be addressed.

The current website is closed source and that has the disadvantage of slower development, but given that there are people actively seeking to destroy this league, opening the source at this time is not an option.
Having said that, if you have particular web skills, feel free to volunteer. You might even be asked to join the project (though it's not my call).

User avatar
JeffM
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 5187
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:11 am
Location: https://github.com/OmniTanks
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by JeffM » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:16 pm

The site is open source, TS even has kindly provided a public SVN for people to get the code from, http://vps1.moooo.org/svn/ts/ as he stated in his posts.(if for some reason it has gone closed source then there is no reason for the league to even be using it, let alone it being discussed on these boards).

The site is fine, the main complaint is simply the skin on top of it. Just how it looks, not what it does. It supports themes, this is just a call for new/better themes, not website replacements.

Web development is broken into 2 parts, front end and back end. TS has done the backend( the hard part that does the work). It's just the frontend that needs some help.
ImageJeffM

smoooth
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by smoooth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:25 pm

Although the idea of a site redesign is not new, the origins of the recent interest stem from a discussion about how to reinvigorate GU league and how to bring in new players. One recommendation I made was to enhance the appearance of the GU website and increase the content as well. I have heard many many complaints over the years how the website makes GU league look old and dead when, at times, there is quite a bit of activity. I heard these complaints even under the previous website design and the current design is possibly more unattractive than the previous. No offense to those that created it, because the functionality is good, but the appearance could be improved and the message is maybe we could tap some of the artistic capabilities of our userbase to enhance the appearance of the league website. I have seen several sample layouts from users over the years that were very good. Unfortunately it will take many months for people to stumble across this message and start a site design. It's progress though and hopefully we will get some good effort from the community to move things along!

User avatar
mrapple
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 11:59 am
Location: Unknown
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by mrapple » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:58 am

I started a new design. But it will take some time. Currently I am just to busy with school, sports, and work to think about free-lance type work right now ;).

Also, personally, the theme titled "Dark" looks very nice and close to an ideal theme... I was thinking about something along the lines of grey and black, however, I'm changing my mind every day ;)

Maybe I'll have a new theme out by christmas. I'll post any mockups / design ideas here.
Image

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by ts » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:30 pm

FiringSquad wrote:Frankly, ts is exhausted after getting it up and running and complaints about cosmetic problems are falling on deaf ears.
Well, I asked for input regarding themes (http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f ... 96#p150679).

2nd problem was that the svn server with the public testing server went down so without both it's difficult to make big changes and not breaking other things. My choice therefore was to wait until it's back up (it is now).

In the downtime Ups and I developed some changes for bzmatchball and some unreleased stats graphs. I also made several bigger not yet finished changes regarding private messages and an editable TODO list for admins. We carefully need to get all these changes back to svn as unfortunately it seems as if in the bzmatchball code there are a few regressions.

In the meantime there are feature requests in the queue (e.g. seasons).
FiringSquad wrote:Having said that, if you have particular web skills, feel free to volunteer. You might even be asked to join the project (though it's not my call).
Patches welcome (read the license). ;)
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

User avatar
FiringSquad
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: League Site Theme

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:18 am

I hope you weren't insulted by any of my comments ts. I didn't mean it to sound like you didn't care about what people thought.

I'm glad to hear how much things have progressed.
I've been a very busy at work and I'm a little out of the loop, so I was not up to speed on the current progress.

Just to let you know, that I for one very much appreciate the hard work all of you have put into this.
And frankly, I'm amazed it looks this good already, given the short time involved and that fact that this is all done on a voluntary basis in your spare time.

User avatar
kierra
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Posts: 3913
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:02 am
Location: outer Slovenia
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by kierra » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:30 pm

FiringSquad wrote: Just to let you know, that I for one very much appreciate the hard work all of you have put into this.
And frankly, I'm amazed it looks this good already, given the short time involved and that fact that this is all done on a voluntary basis in your spare time.

I echo these sentiments many, many times over. Thank you, thank you, ts for taking the initiative to tackle what many said was an over whelming task.
"Sometimes people try to expose what's wrong with you, because they can't handle what's right about you."
"Measure your words -- they determine the distance of your relationships"

User avatar
plasma kaz
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:16 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by plasma kaz » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:20 am

I really like brad's dark theme. The colors are really weird but somehow go together.. with the exception of the banner. The text is really easy to read and the layout uses a my screen much better than the default theme. I guess what im saying is give the Dark a go if you can't bear the default until a better theme is developed.
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise with fleas"

-Benjamin Franklin
Poor Richard's Almanac

"You want quiet? Take the next train"


-Lightning
FFXIII

User avatar
Zac
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:59 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by Zac » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:43 pm

i would like i theme the same as the old one as an option if possible.

thanks

User avatar
ducktape
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:06 am
Location: Right Behind you!
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by ducktape » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:36 am

Zac wrote:i would like i theme the same as the old one as an option if possible.

thanks
that theme is old news. how about we all put away our bias opinions and be open to something new? All that has happened has been complaints.
Image

osta
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by osta » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:17 pm

I don't like gu theme too :> And I did something new ;)

Rusty Sniper
Private
Private
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:24 am

Re: League Site Theme

Post by Rusty Sniper » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:30 am

lets just make everything white.

User avatar
kierra
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Posts: 3913
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:02 am
Location: outer Slovenia
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by kierra » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:35 am

Rusty Sniper wrote:lets just make everything white.
I like "dark' theme best, followed by 42. All these opinions show that it's impossible to please everyone with one theme - so several are offered. There is always the possibility of players coming up with themes of their liking and submitting them for use on the site. :)

Where are the creative minds? Gu site launched with 5 choices. If you don't like any of these, come up with your own theme. We are certain open to more choices.
"Sometimes people try to expose what's wrong with you, because they can't handle what's right about you."
"Measure your words -- they determine the distance of your relationships"

User avatar
ducktape
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:06 am
Location: Right Behind you!
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by ducktape » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:42 pm

lets masterban anyone who complains again.
Image

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: League Site Theme

Post by dexter » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:26 pm

What people are actually saying, is that the default appearance of the site is not appealing. We all know that taste is individual and subjective but there is usually general consensus about what looks good and what doesn't regarding web design.
All these projects and even BZFlag itself is very based around the "We offered you something, if you dont like it, make your own." mentality. It's open source, we get it. Nobody is getting paid for any of the work and it's just all based around the free time of the creators. In my eyes, we as a league, are still trying to sell a product. And therefore, you can't always base everything around the "We're open for contributions" mentality. Any criticism that is ever expressed is always answered with that line. It's not going to go anywhere like that. You can't expect the end-user to do the work that he expects should be a standard. Yes, I remember, nobody is getting paid. This is all very hypothetical. The point I'm making is, if you've already started something like the new website and there are many good things about it, why not just invest that last bit of time to making it something really good? Why not take the advice these people are giving you and fix up a great default theme that people will be happy with and that is somehow representative of the amount of work that has gone into the site already. It is the responsibility of the creators to not let all the improvements they've made be discounted because of an imperfect theme. Whatever we start seems to go really well and then productivity stops at the last 10% of the way. You don't have to agree with me but there is no denying that those last 10% would really turn the site into something cool.

osta
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by osta » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:48 pm

80% of work takes 20% of time, and last 20% of work takes 80% of time.. keep that in mind ;)
But I agree, that end users should write theirs suggestions, and it should be at least stored at some TODO list.
Then that list should be proritized and maybe some day someone will improve site when he has time.

ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by ts » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:44 pm

dexter wrote:What people are actually saying, is that the default appearance of the site is not appealing. We all know that taste is individual and subjective but there is usually general consensus about what looks good and what doesn't regarding web design.
A number of people will be always unhappy and these are crying loud while happy people hardly tell that unless one is in direct contact with them. The majority tends to say nothing.

When is the consensus "about what looks good and what doesn't regarding web design" fulfilled? I believe that's the case when most active users do not comment.
dexter wrote:All these projects and even BZFlag itself is very based around the "We offered you something, if you dont like it, make your own." mentality. It's open source, we get it.
In my belief it's more like "We offer something and if you can make changes that are not contrary to the project goals you're welcome". In essence this implicitly notes that the offer is not seen as a bad one.
dexter wrote:And therefore, you can't always base everything around the "We're open for contributions" mentality. Any criticism that is ever expressed is always answered with that line.
There were a number of complaints about the theme used during earlier development stage. Nowadays that theme is no longer default…
dexter wrote:It's not going to go anywhere like that.
I remember Firefox for instance went into a harder direction: Often listening to users and partly totally ignoring wishes (MNG for instance).

dexter wrote:why not just invest that last bit of time to making it something really good?
The majority seems not to see it as an issue. Is a bigger project ever finished or could one almost always find things to be improved/changed to be in step with zeitgeist?
dexter wrote:Whatever we start seems to go really well and then productivity stops at the last 10% of the way. You don't have to agree with me but there is no denying that those last 10% would really turn the site into something cool.
We're talking about taste here and people will never be happy. The decision not to re-implement meno's look was a strategical one to communicate the change. Now that people likely understood that there was a change, I might think about doing it but I hardly see a need. On the other hand, if I look at the rikercup website, I see 8 errors and 12 warnings and the navigation doesn't work… :roll:
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

User avatar
Cobra_Fast
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:51 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: League Site Theme

Post by Cobra_Fast » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:29 pm

I don't see why anyone is complaining about the theme at all.
It might not be the most amazing artwork that you've seen in your life, but hey, it works and doesn't make you get eye cancer. Plus, it's unpaid, voluntary work. Plus you can choose between a handful of styles and eventually find the one least disgusting ...
dexter wrote:All these projects and even BZFlag itself is very based around the "We offered you something, if you dont like it, make your own." mentality. It's open source, we get it.
Open source does not mean that at all. It gives you the opportunity to do that, yes, but the more efficient way would be to enhance the existing code/artwork of any project.

So in the end you got two options of what to do:
  1. Accept whats there and shut the complaints.
  2. Do not accept whats there and "make it better".
But you definitely cannot mix those options.

This is how it works, basically.

dexter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:36 am
Location: Germany :o)

Re: League Site Theme

Post by dexter » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:28 pm

I'm sorry I said anything :)

User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Re: League Site Theme

Post by macsforme » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:30 pm

dexter wrote:I'm sorry I said anything :)
Don't be... your post is well thought out (contrary to many posts on this board) and states a valid opinion shared by several people.
Cobra_Fast wrote:
dexter wrote:All these projects and even BZFlag itself is very based around the "We offered you something, if you dont like it, make your own." mentality. It's open source, we get it.
Open source does not mean that at all. It gives you the opportunity to do that, yes, but the more efficient way would be to enhance the existing code/artwork of any project.
Open source does ideally mean that all are welcome to contribute and improve the software. Unfortunately, sometimes developers are hesitant to work on new ideas because they already have many of their own, and they are bombarded with a plethora of new ideas without corresponding offers to work on them. They then become conditioned to respond with a "patches welcome" response after new ideas are shared. This is not the most effective or progressive response, but outsiders should also try to understand what makes them respond that way. A little mutual understanding from both sides could go a long way.

smoooth
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: League Site Theme

Post by smoooth » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:41 pm

Yeah, I agree with Dexter here. It's a good post and I think he kind of summarizes in the statement "The point I'm making is, if you've already started something like the new website and there are many good things about it, why not just invest that last bit of time to making it something really good?"

This is very true. What has been created already is good and all it needs is a little more effort to make it top notch. Perhaps whomever doesn't possess the time/skills to make take it to the next level (which is fine!) we just need to tap more BZ resources to help finish the remaining details to make it superb. That is why we need everyone working on a theme and graphics to help TS and others bring the site up to a level we all know it can be at!

User avatar
llrr
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:00 am

Re: League Site Theme

Post by llrr » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:30 am

can i just ask, is it possible to save the theme chosen, so that we don't have to choose a different theme every time we close and open the browser? the problem i think is that the site supports many themes, but it reverts to the default theme every time it's restarted, like many people here i'm not going to be on the site for long periods at the time, mostly just look at matches and teams, so in the long terms i just give up changing the theme every time i login or something.

Post Reply