20 minute matches? Your feedback please

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20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:37 pm

I'll make it short and simple.
Should we allow 20 minute matches? If so, then in what way?

It would probably result in more activity etc., so for the most part there is agreement among admins that this is a good idea, but there are differences when it comes to how it should be implemented.
This is where you come in. After all, the league is there for your benefit, not ours, and we admins are eager to support any option that increases the quality of fun for all.

The major dispute revolves around points earned for a 20 minute match.
Should you get the same for a 20 minute match as a 30 minute one?

There are other considerations too. For example, will skill-levels go down if 20 minute matches become the norm?

There are limitations too. Changing scoring scheme, for example, will need modifications to be made to the GU-League forum and we already rely heavily on the good graces of volunteers to maintain that site, so we are not eager to burden them unnecessarily.

Anyway, before we commit to anything, we would dearly like to hear your views on the subject.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by red-der » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:07 am

Please, Please, not again a poll or discussion...

We had this 14 months ago with a a lot of people participating in the dialogue (110 postings). But in the end, that topic was closed without any decision. Although 50 percent of the voters wanted the possibility to play 20 min matches, it wasn´t allowed and no reason was given.

From the old thread (Option 1 = 30 min matches only, Option 2 = 20 min matches only,
Option 3 = players decide if they want to play a 20 or 30 min match)
Current Tally (Adjusted for vote changing... some changed from option 2 to option 3, option 3 to option 1, etc.)

Option 1. 31
Option 2. 1
Option 3. 29

It's almost a 50-50 here. Phew!
http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php? ... 75#p152424

Since this topic was closed and no decision was made, a few new players joined the league and most of them lost nearly immediately interest after getting some nice "pounding" (like 10-0, 12-1, we even had a 20-1).
At the moment, it is quite hard to get a decent, even match. So you nearly know before the match starts how it will end. Is it really necessary to have those uneven matches played 30 mins - if all participants prefer 20 min?
The major dispute revolves around points earned for a 20 minute match.
Should you get the same for a 20 minute match as a 30 minute one?
- It may make a difference if you play 3 or 4 matches in a row, but which team does this nowadays on a regularly basis?

- A lot of players don´t care that much about points.

-If you really want to take match-length into account:
Add a field for it in the match-enter-form, we can find a nice formula to adjust the points depending on the match-lengths later.
Or let 20 min matches only be reported to a specific referee/ admin, so we have this data together and can adjust points later - if needed.

So...
Why not just test 20 min matches and see how players like it and if/ which influences it has?
I think this would give a better input than some (inactive) players sentiments, like "I don´t want 20 min matches" / "it was always 30 mins"), or some theoretical discussion for weeks, while we loose players.

----------

Before we start a bigger discussion here, I really want to ask participants to bring new arguments or reasons we haven´t had in the former discussion. And stay on topic please.

Thank you
red-der

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by Grace F » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:30 am

I'll keep this short and to the point to avoid a huge congestion of Grace's rambling.

I honestly quite like the idea of 20minute matches, and I don't quite see why too much should change should occur if this idea were implemented. I thought a Team's GU Rating change at the end of a match was purely based on who they beat and their GU Rating. If so, why should a match that was only played for 20minutes change that? I've seen plenty of matches that've ended before the given 30minutes and some of those (depending on elapsed time and/or involved players) were unanimously voted to be entered as is.

I'm not active enough to know the exact state of the League at present, but if it seems like people are matching less, I can't see why 20minute matches would be counterproductive.
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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by Mopar Madness » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:16 am

I gave my opinion on points to the admins a little while back, by multiplying the current formula for determining points by (log(x)+1), that would make a viable points multiplier for any length match over 3 minutes long, allowing for custom length matches. The reason I think shorter matches should receive less points is because a) Most importantly, it gives a reason to have longer matches. B) Longer matches provide a more decisive victor, any team can get lucky and lead for 3 minutes, but they can't keep the better team down forever and eventually, the better team will win. I am all for allowing shorter and longer matches if the players want to. The formula works down to 3 minute matches, but I would recommend a lower limit on official matches at maybe 15 minutes or 20 minutes. The formula could be refined further too, example: (2log(x)+1) would give less points for shorter matches, but more for longer matches, and the same for standard matches compared to (log(x)+1).

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by macsforme » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:50 am

For the record, we are aware that this issue was discussed extensively before. Because the reaction was mostly favorable, we have been moving forward with considerations for how to implement it. However, some finer details remained to be adressed, such as how it will affect the points system and getting any necessary changes implemented in the web league code. We are primarily interested here in feedback regarding whether full points or only 2/3 points should be awarded for 20 minute matches. For logistical reasons it would be a lot easier to make one decision on this and stick with it than trying to change it later, so please post here if you have thoughts one way or the other on this.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by Mopar Madness » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:51 am

The reason I suggest the log function instead of simply 2/3 is because generally the team leading at the 20 minute mark is more likely to still be leading at the 30 minute mark. So it should get a percent of the points closer to the standard 30 minutes. Same premise as if hour matches were allowed, double points shouldn't be given because the match would probably already be fairly well decided at the 30 minute mark.

Using a hypothetical hour long match as an example, an hour long match isn't the same as 2 30 minute matches, if 2 teams match and go 5-3 in the 1st 30 and 3-4 in the 2nd 30, in an hour match it would be 8-7 win for team 1, team 1 shouldn't get points equivalent to 2 30-minute wins when they didn't win 2 30-minute periods, they won the 1st and lost the 2nd but held on enough to win overall.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by slime » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:52 pm

If it is already decided to go through with allowing 20 minute matches, then yes, those matches should be worth less points (and activity rating if that is possible). I think this because I'd prefer not to see the GU league go down the road the ducati league did and having almost all the matches played be at 15 minutes. Those are plain and simple not fun in my opinion (obviously my opinion does not reflect the majority, just my own). Some of the best matches I've ever been a part of or seen were the best due to the final 10 minutes. Plus, for some of us rustys, it takes about 20 minutes to properly warm up :wink:

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by blinky » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:01 pm

Red-der I think you would have needed a majority to have pushed a change like that, not that 50%. Why change the system? It won't make a blind bit of difference, 10 minutes.
Ducati players are the only ones that want 20 mins and they are mostly getting used to gu's 30 mins anyway. This is GU not DUCATI. Note how ducati is dead and gu is just surviving. Well it won't survive too many changes, look how many people left facebook when they implemented timeline!

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by kajo » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:02 pm

I' ve been playing BZflag in the GU-league since beginning 2010. At the beginning it was hard to concentrate for 30 minutes but then I got used to it. I think many new players will welcome the possibility to do a 20-minute- match and that could increase the activity of these players. Nowadays, in my opinion, 30 minutes pass by very quickly when I play a GU match - especially when it's a very tight match. I think you need those 30 minutes because they include camping, hiding and so one. As you know I'm quite a competitive player so if I lost a tight 20-minutes-official-match, I guess I'd complain in my mind because, theoretically, I could tie if it were 30 minutes.

So, I don't know what's the best for the league. I think there would be some trouble if players had the possibility to choice and I want to explain to you what I mean through an example: two teams agree on doing a official match, then they decide how long to play, I'm quite sure some players want 30 minutes and the other team wants 20 minutes, in the end they don't match because they can't agree on a time. I suppose this problem will show up everytime you decide to match - so does the opportunity to decide between 20 and 30-minutes-matches really increase the activity of the league? As you can see I'm undecided.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by FiringSquad » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Mopar Madness wrote:The reason I suggest the log function instead of simply 2/3 is because generally the team leading at the 20 minute mark is more likely to still be leading at the 30 minute mark. So it should get a percent of the points closer to the standard 30 minutes. Same premise as if hour matches were allowed, double points shouldn't be given because the match would probably already be fairly well decided at the 30 minute mark.
If two teams start a 30 minute match, then it's a 30 minute match even after it is abandoned and reported after 20 minutes.
Play is different at the beginning, middle and end. A losing team will generally take more risks near the end. A 20 minute match will essentially reduce the "middle" component, IMO.
For this reason, I don't think that the log function is appropriate in this case.

As Constitution said, (and I should have made it clearer), there is general agreement that providing choice will improve the player experience and brings many advantages, so we would like to implement it.
There is a cost to changing the scoring scheme, but if that's what's required then that's what we'll do.
There is no doubt that this will change the league, should we get agreement on its implementation, so we'd like to give you all a chance to speak up.
Of course, if we cannot get some degree of majority consensus, it will probably not get implemented. This would be a shame, as there are many advantages to it, including the one Kajo just mentioned regarding new players.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by kierra » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Why not do a trial run for about 3 months. If ts can modify the gu site so that match length is part of the information entered, we then can see if it's popular enough to make the change permanent.
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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by Frank The Tank » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:59 pm

Unfortunately I have to agree with Chris on this one.

I have seen & been in so many matches where a Team has come from behind to draw or win a match in the last 10 minutes. I wouldn’t want to end up in a situation where this becomes a game of speed & determined by how many caps can be made at pace.
On reflection of other sports in real life this has happened to the detriment of that League.

GU is a 3 dimensional game that’s what separates it from Ducati.
For us laggers, it takes time to get the shot timing right now we are going to be further penalized if the consensus is for some players who won’t want to match unless it’s only 20 minutes.

As a compromise why not introduce a 20 minute mercy rule. Whereby matches are official after 20 minutes & can be entered. Less work for TS (I’m sure he would like that).This would suit the Teams who want to match better players, yet if the score has blown out by say a minium difference of 6 by the 20 minute mark, the match is regarded as official. Wouldn’t take players long to get used to that. Yes I know forfeit is an option but let’s keep a little pride & dignity.

The other aspect about feedback is only those that access, care to read, whom will actually offer an opinion will do so. So it is very subjective whether this is for the geater good of the League.

Consider the Mercy Rule instead.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by red-der » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:39 pm

Red-der I think you would have needed a majority to have pushed a change like that, not that 50%. Why change the system? It won't make a blind bit of difference, 10 minutes.
If half of the player-base who voted (!) wants the ability to decide 20 or 30 mins, they should be able to. And now take into account that mostly long time players contributed to this discussion/ poll. The bigger part of the new players doesn´t even know the board or thinks he has a voice in such a discussion. I spoke with a lot of those new players, and most of them named 2 reasons why not to stay:

# They aren´t willing to get a 30 min heavy beating without a single chance/ They aren´t used to match that long and can´t keep the concentration.
# They don´t like getting taunted and insulted because of their "bzflag freshness"

So they just leave to other games.

We don´t want to have 20-min-matches only, we just want the possibility to play 20-min-matches if all participants agree or want this. So, 50% (+ X% newbies) is quite a number to allow that.

Funny side-note:
30-min-matches-only voters from the last poll have been less active than allow-20-min-matches voters.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by slime » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:03 am

I agree with Frank after reading his post. Just modify the rules to allow 30 minute matches to be entered at 20 minutes if and only if:

-team scores are a difference of 5-6+
and
-all participating players agree

No new plugin or rating system would be needed.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by Mopar Madness » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:51 am

If all players have to agree, then its not a mercy rule, its forfeiting which no team wants. Its no different than what we have now.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by blinky » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:35 am

I wouldn't give people the idea they can just plan to forfeit at 20 mins. Makes the 30 minute matches rule obsolete.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by birdie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:45 am

red-der wrote:
Red-der I think you would have needed a majority to have pushed a change like that, not that 50%. Why change the system? It won't make a blind bit of difference, 10 minutes.
If half of the player-base who voted (!) wants the ability to decide 20 or 30 mins, they should be able to. And now take into account that mostly long time players contributed to this discussion/ poll. The bigger part of the new players doesn´t even know the board or thinks he has a voice in such a discussion. I spoke with a lot of those new players, and most of them named 2 reasons why not to stay:

# They aren´t willing to get a 30 min heavy beating without a single chance/ They aren´t used to match that long and can´t keep the concentration.
# They don´t like getting taunted and insulted because of their "bzflag freshness"

So they just leave to other games.

We don´t want to have 20-min-matches only, we just want the possibility to play 20-min-matches if all participants agree or want this. So, 50% (+ X% newbies) is quite a number to allow that.

Funny side-note:
30-min-matches-only voters from the last poll have been less active than allow-20-min-matches voters.
The last poll was like you say more or less 50 50%. Even with all the reasons you give, you can't say that is a "must base" to have allowed those 20min matches.

But the communication about this after the poll was indeed very bad and the discussion about it went dead.

Personally I'm not in favor for those 20min matches but I'm not the only one who decide about this. If the majority of the most active players (+ take newbees in account) like the 20min option, than we should consider that strongly.

Like kierra said, a trial of some months wouldn't be a bad idea and than we can evaluate this.

I just hope it wont go down to 20min matches only like ducati has with their 15min cause a lot can happen in those last 10min and there are many examples where the match turned sides in the last 10min.

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Re: 20 minute matches? Your feedback please

Post by kierra » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:49 pm

Since someone came to me today, shocked that 20 min matches earn 2/3 points of 30 min......almost 18 mon after 20 min matches were allowed as officials.
Let me state clearly for all:
Matches are 20 or 30 mins in length. 20 min matches earn 2/3 the points of 30 min matches. (from the FAQ page on the site)

Was also announced on News page:
News by kierra at 2012-04-23 17:14:36
After much deliberation and players' requests, 20 min matches will now be an official option! 2/3 points (of 30 min matches) awarded for 20 min.
Please be sure to state match length when you report a match to a referee.
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