Please Read

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blinky
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Please Read

Post by blinky » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

I've noticed the increase in bans for players that have more activity than 90% of the admins. Look at last couple of months activity and then look at maybe February and March. How is it when the league is dying GU can afford to ban people for a little bad language? Even saying "wtf" gets you banned now. Only once have I seen GU get this strict. Then Xleague came and GU calmed down abit to keep its players, now it's gone back to how it was before "A police state".
I don't condone the new website certain players have set up but are you surprised? They put hours into keeping this league active and they get silly bans. If this is kept up, another Xleague will rise,
not by me I don't have time, but by people that want to play on hix without being banned constantly. I read that 17 bans in Feb? How does anyone think that increasing bans 1000% is going to make a difference it will just agitate people to the point of taking action. I don't think the website recently created is the last retaliation we will see.
I've always been for the players, the players get what they want basically, the customer is always right. Players = Activity --- Bans = Less Activity and Anger.

Any replies on this subject would be nice, I'm not out to have a go at anyone, I just want a HIX map to play on with activity. As do all others that play this league.
Please note this is just my personal opinion.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:34 pm

When I say I don't condone the new website, I do understand the players anger. Just not the abuse! Even though it is a lil funny some of it :P
Also if this post is removed it kinda just proves you don't want to listen to players.

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Re: Please Read

Post by RJ » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:06 pm

Whilst I agree with the majority of your post, "wtf" only gets you banned if you are a specific person, same with some other words. I'm all for fairplay, banning anyone and everyone who uses these words, but when the admins are handpicking who they ban, it gets a little tedious - but then again, what do you expect?

I also find it quite distasteful that the admins are so quick to ban people who are bringing activity to the league, fairplay if it's calling outright for a ban then yeah, I can understand it, but some of the bans recently have been for some really petty stuff, including the word 'biatch' which wasn't even used in a malicious way and acronyms (not actual swearing, acronyms that could stand for abso-bloody-lutley anything) that in the used circumstance where perfectly understandable. A load of bollocks really. No wonder Ducati is dead, and GU is struggling, naming no names, but a lot of the admins are down right hypocritical with the way they execute the rules.

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Re: Please Read

Post by ahs3 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:14 pm

Could it be due to the increase in the use of bad language? If there is a crime spree in my home town, I certainly hope to see a increase in arrests. Perhaps everyone should just follow the rules, because children play this game. And as a parent myself, i would ban anyone who uses bad language on my server, and I do. So again, perhaps everyone should just follow the rules.

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Re: Please Read

Post by brad » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:32 pm

Chris, as a recovering offender, you know how easy it is to stay on the correct side of "the law". Why not teach your team mates what you have learned?

kitten, a quote from yourself: "but srsly, ban me, perm ban me, i dont care" .....suddenly you seem to care?

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:24 pm

Ok well AHS3, I don't disagree with banning for excessive bad language, but some bans recently for saying "wtf" in a match, is unacceptable. To be honest I doubt even half the GU admins would agree to some of these bans. Also it's not just like a public server, gu is like as T-roy said abit of a family, we're all friends here. Some are more friendly with eachother than others as for the biased ban decisions all the time. It's only human nature to stick out for your own. But it's not fair on a bzflagleague
Yes Brad I did stop my bad language, I know what it's like to run a league so I understand you ban sometimes but I never would ban like it has been recently.
Ofcourse Kitten said that, I'm pretty sure I've said that before, we're young and have ego's. I dunno why you would choose to believe anything of the sort, the fact that he was involved with atleast 10 matches a week shows that he does "care" in a way.

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Re: Please Read

Post by RJ » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:31 pm

brad wrote:kitten, a quote from yourself: "but srsly, ban me, perm ban me, i dont care" .....suddenly you seem to care?
By all means perm ban me, it's more your loss than mine as I bring a lot of activity to the table for GU. I guess some people say stuff they don't really mean, you of all people should know this brad.

All am saying is I have noticed that there is a massive bias within the GU admins, having been on both ends of the spectrum, and this is not fair for the other players, well, it's cool for the players who get off lightly on the bans or just don't get banned at all. There have been cases where Admins have been present and players have used bad language, and they have done nothing about it, and then there have been cases where Admins have been present when some other players have done the same offences and they have been banned on the spot without a word of warning. If you're telling me this is fair, well, fun stuff.
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Re: Please Read

Post by red-der » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:58 pm

I throw in some statistics:

+ We had 4 bans in January and 16 in February, total 20

+ we had 13 different people to ban, but only 1 of them was banned for the 1st time,
the other 12 had already some bans lately

+ highlight: 1 player was able to get 5 bans in less than 2 months, that means 25% of all the bans. Impressive.

It is understandable that players want to be able to express their emotions, and I am all for it.
Some nice remarks or well placed taunting enhances the playing amusement. But maps where kids play isn´t the right place for rude or blatant insulting.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:22 pm

Tbh the ban quantities are one thing.
The activity of the league are another, my team can't function without kitten, he was the one that inspired maybe rude sarcasm but he also inspired the entire team to work with eachother for fun. The team was made with me and Kitten, we made a fun team without pressure, without stressy losing/winning. The players loved it. I killed the team and you should have seen how many requests I had to bring it back, it was the funnest most exciting team in the league. We lost, We won. Was a joke, we seriously made the team for activity for the league and if asked I can post messages about that fact. In 2 weeks we made aprox 50 MATCHES.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Pam » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:27 pm

when it comes to kids playing, i know i tend to complain myself about language... but when you register you know what you are getting into. you are going to see a little language. thats why you have to ask your parents before they let you play the game, right?

not really getting into this

just saying =D

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Re: Please Read

Post by ahs3 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:51 pm

It would seem that if you want your teammate to be able to play more matches, perhaps he should not use bad language? Seem Logical? Its very simple.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blast » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:09 pm

the pink brit, let's not reference other people. I edited your post to remove the last section. Keep in mind that this forum is run and administered by the BZFlag project, not the league. Please follow the forum rules and keep the conversation civil and do not target specific people in your conversation.
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Re: Please Read

Post by macsforme » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:49 pm

Match disturbance, player harassment, language, cheat accusations in public (1 day -7 days)
These rules have not changed. If you want to play in this league, follow the rules. When people say things they shouldn't, and get disciplined, why do they feel like the victim? Why not accept the discipline, and stop the behavior. About all I have seen recently when people get banned are complaints about being singled out, protests about inconsistent application, and inflammatory remarks about how the behavior wasn't a big deal.

We frequently get complaints from players about obscene language or harassment, with requests to address these issues. We like seeing increased league activity, but why does that mean we should tolerate forbidden behavior? We will not ruin the experience for everyone else because a few players will not conform their behavior to the standards.
The GU League Admin Team has prepared general guidelines of ban penalties for bad behavior. These are guidelines only, and actual penalties may be longer or shorter, depending on individual circumstances. In all situations, it is up to the Admins whether to ignore conduct, warn, or impose a ban penalty.
This hasn't changed either. Admins have discretion on how to deal with each individual situation. Every admin has a different background and experience level that will shape how they see a situation. We do try to be consistent. When we discussed every little incident in a group before acting, people complained that we never did anything or it took too long. Now that we've started to act immediately on some issues, people complain that enforcement is inconsistent.

Please try to see things from our perspective. We really have no hidden agendas or malice toward any players. We are just trying to do our best to keep the league a pleasant experience for everyone, inasmuch as our human nature and shortcomings will allow us.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Grans Remedy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:06 am

The proponents of allowing foul language and associated obnoxious behaviour in the league claim this is about the occasional 'wtf' when it most certainly is not.

While I'm not a GU admin, I do host one of the offi servers for the league (pay the bills for it) and so the GU Admins kindly allow me to see the admin forum so I can keep up with what is happening in the league (all servers need to be identical etc). This includes the many discussions where they have to deal with complaints around players language and behaviour. No mistake - what they have to deal with is not friendly banter between rivals.

The speech is so hateful, the behaviour so offensive, words fail me.

I don't care if you like to swear, or think its funny to harass or bully other players. Swear all you like, think-up as much hate as you want just don't type it!

How is that so difficult?

The GU League is popular (friendly, attractive to new players etc) because of its strict policy on player behaviour, not in spite of it!
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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:32 am

Well I'm just saying, admins are being alot more strict recently. I like alot of the admins and I don't want them to think I'm against them, especially kierra.
Kierra will need to calm down with bans too but I really think she's a lovely woman :)
By the way maybe there should be a "report" part too the GU forum. So the players can agree or disagree to the bans. Admins are one thing but it's the players that should decide.
Alot of times you may be right about banning but sometimes recently it has been a joke. I understand what all you admins are feeling, You want this place to be perfect from bad language. Let me tell you I've tried it before and it will NEVER WORK. X

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Re: Please Read

Post by slime » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:58 am

This isn't the first time bad language has been brought up on the GU League forums. Check out:

http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=14665
http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=14090

As for some suggestions, maybe either let the players decide more by sending screenshots to the admins or reporting specific players when they feel personally harassed, bullied, or annoyed; or give the player a few more chances ingame before banning (private message warnings, even if it's a repeat offender). Sometimes a friendly reminder in private can go a long way. If either of these are already happening, my apologies, I haven't been around much to see it.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Pam » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:18 am

@slime: i talked to an admin about warnings. he/she said that they don't need warnings cause they are not new to the league rules and know better. in my opinion, you should warn them every single time even if they are known for cursing cause sometimes the bans are kinda stupid about the word they said. sometimes its not clear it was wrong. and the player that curses tons gets banned and was not thinking anything of it. if they didn't know and they didn't get a warning, that's not fair. if you just warn every time this problem wouldn't happen and it doesn't take much work to warn somebody... (imo!)
=)

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Re: Please Read

Post by kajo » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:01 pm

I also get quickly angry when I'm matching because I always want to give my best. So, in my opinion it's human that you want to express your emotions - but now there's the difference how I handle these emotions. I joined the GU-league in 2010 and since then I've never got banned. Why? Because I don't use the common bad language like: fu***, sh** etc because I find it actually boring and useless. Personally, I express my emotions through a bit sarcasm and hidden offence.BUT, I never get too personal. Like in real life there's a limit. So why don't you act with a bit more intelligence and avoid this significant bad language. I really like to joke and argue with you (Chris and kitten) and the league really needs guys like you!

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Re: Please Read

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:20 pm

pammy pinkbrit wrote:in my opinion, you should warn them every single time even if they are known for cursing cause sometimes the bans are kinda stupid about the word they said. sometimes its not clear it was wrong. and the player that curses tons gets banned and was not thinking anything of it.
I am not convinced that warnings do much to solve the "not thinking" problem. I admit that bans will not do it either.

About the only thing that works against genuine "I wasn't thinking when I wrote that" behavior is the optional BZFlag language filter that replaces naughty words with character strings such as #&%@. People with truly good intentions will see that and realize "oops, I'm glad the filter caught that." For better or worse, that filter is not used on official GU league maps. I don't think it matters much either way.

The (supposedly difficult) problem we face is players who deliberately type things like "wtf" and then claim it "isn't that bad" or it means something else than what everyone else understands it to mean. All GU players are now on notice that such excuses will not be accepted.

It is your own responsibility to refrain from typing things that result in "match disturbance, player harassment, language, cheat accusations in public." If you aren't sure that what you are about to type is acceptable, the safe thing to do is not type it at all, or else find a completely different way to express yourself. Be sure to consider not only the the player(s) at whom your comment is directed, but also any other other players who may see what you type.

Showing respect for other league members is one of the conditions for being given the privilege to play in the GU league. Disrespectful players, no matter how frequently they play official matches, will lose that privilege. The admins are firm about this, so take it or leave it.

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Re: Please Read

Post by kierra » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:46 pm

GU should institute a mute banlist for chronic abusers of language/harassment/troll like chat etc.
They could still match and the community would be spared their nonsense.
Yes, it will impact the team dynamics...but such is life. An outright ban impacts the team as well. Till ppl learn manners and respect, they can be mute banned.
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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:37 pm

I totally agree, we had this /ipmute plugin on xleague, I'm sure Muri would be happy to give it up.
It basically mutes the ip for 24 hours, there is also /ipunmute.
Unless you want to just change perms on the website, might make more sense as her plugin only did 24hours it didn't have the option to /ipmute "the pink brit" 10m.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Spambot » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:56 pm

So if acronyms are a problem because everyone understands them a certain way, how is "Oh crap!" any different? You could just as easily say that "everyone understands" that to be a substitute for "Oh @$^&!" I don't think the match servers would be too awful if the occasional "wtf?" was allowed to slip through. Excessive cursing is one thing, but I'm finding that the administrators are starting to blow things a little out of proportion.

Another thing I've noticed - people with histories get banned a far quicker for far longer for far smaller offenses. Justified? Maybe. Bias? Absolutely. Look past the problem to its effect. There are certain times when a ban just isn't necessary to keep the peace, and the admins are jumping at those cases with banhammers in hand. The admins' peacekeeping style lately borders on the style of the Gestapo. I understand that leagues are not a democracy and are not intended to be so, but a lot of people are starting to get a little put off by the over-policing and not nearly as much by the violations of the rules. Personally, I haven't noticed any increase in language frequency. I'm sure others would say the same. Admins are starting to pick out and pick on the people they would call "childish." I'm noticing that as age increases, the magnitude of a bannable offense does too.

Something interesting - some of the administrators like to switch between their own name and "GU League Council" on the bans page. What the flying schnitzel is that? I can verify that in a lot of those cases, only the admin that banned as "GU League Council" was present at the ban. That's not a council, that's a person. I don't know what your motive is, admins, but if you're trying to use that to keep from looking like a Nazi, you're doing a poor job of it.

To summarize, if you're going to over-read the Rules page, revise it to include what YOU want it to include. We don't want to sit here and try to interpret what you interpret. It was once a very short page. If your thought process is more complicated, make the rules more complicated to match. I'd rather know what I'm getting into than have a 30-second read. There are only one-hundred and forty-one words on the rules page. None of them mention acronyms, none of them define what a disturbance is, and none of them set a clear standard. Rules should be just as standardized as rulers are - I don't want my inches to be a millimeter longer or shorter based on what yardstick I'm using. The same way, I'd really rather not have to change my behavior to be acceptable by whatever admin happens to be present and their idea of a bannable offense.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blast » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:30 am

the pink brit wrote:I totally agree, we had this /ipmute plugin on xleague, I'm sure Muri would be happy to give it up.
It basically mutes the ip for 24 hours, there is also /ipunmute.
Unless you want to just change perms on the website, might make more sense as her plugin only did 24hours it didn't have the option to /ipmute "the pink brit" 10m.
The IPMute plugin is one of Theme97's plugins. However, it has several disadvantages compared to using a mute group like kierra suggested. First of all, it is not set up for sharing across servers. This means you'd either have to modify the plugin, or you'd have to add/remove the ipmutes from every single server individually. It also cannot support mute durations, so you'd have to remove the mutes manually. It does not allow a comment to be specified, so you have to keep track of what IP belongs to who. It does not support IP ranges, so you have to ban individual IP addresses. So, essentially, it adds a good amount of administrative overhead.

Using a mute group would allow editing a single list of registered players and having it automatically apply to all the servers. Next time a player joins a league server, bam, can't talk. Easy as that.
Anathema wrote:So if acronyms are a problem because everyone understands them a certain way, how is "Oh crap!" any different? You could just as easily say that "everyone understands" that to be a substitute for "Oh @$^&!" I don't think the match servers would be too awful if the occasional "wtf?" was allowed to slip through. Excessive cursing is one thing, but I'm finding that the administrators are starting to blow things a little out of proportion.[/url]
I fail to see how "crap" would be equivalent to an s-bomb. Granted, I personally do not ban people on my own servers for saying "wtf", but I do for acronyms that are directed at an individual (like "st*u"). So perhaps there could be some kind of compromise there.
Anathema wrote:Another thing I've noticed - people with histories get banned a far quicker for far longer for far smaller offenses. Justified? Maybe. Bias? Absolutely.
As they should. If someone repeatedly breaks the rules, the punishment should be harsher with each iteration.
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Re: Please Read

Post by Bullet Catcher » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:02 am

Anathema wrote:a lot of people are starting to get a little put off by the over-policing and not nearly as much by the violations of the rules. Personally, I haven't noticed any increase in language frequency. I'm sure others would say the same.
The only people put off by the recent increase in language rule enforcement are the ones who want to be free to use foul and/or abusive language. That freedom does not exist in this league, and most members understand and are content with that.
Anathema wrote:There are only one-hundred and forty-one words on the rules page. None of them mention acronyms, none of them define what a disturbance is, and none of them set a clear standard. Rules should be just as standardized as rulers
What you see is what you get. Take it or leave it.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Grace F » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:07 am

I believe the League Admins have been given their League Rights on merits and above all else, their respect for the community and the desire to keep the community respectful. If a banned has been placed on an individual, I can only hope that the reasons for it were fair and legitimate. But what should be kept in mind is that they wouldn't have been put in such a place if it weren't for trust.
I would rather see a smaller, decent and respectful community over a larger, out-of-control and perhaps unfriendlier community any day of the week.

What I also believe people try and do is "test the boundaries". Noone should be unclear as to what "appropriate behaviour" is and is not. This behaviour is going to make you a suspect - So when it comes time that you do push that limit too far you will hear about it.

As Constitution said:
If you want to play in this league, follow the rules.
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