Please Read

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FiringSquad
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Re: Please Read

Post by FiringSquad » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:50 am

Blast is not talking about forgetting to ban, he's trying to explain that banning an admin turned out to be a complicated process.
Even when he was banned he could still join servers and speak.
The reason we didn't know about this before is that Admins are generally very well behaved, and so we didn't need to do it so often.

As for the incident. Bad language immediately followed by a public apology is not as bad as flagrant persistent bad language without any remorse. So the fact that both got the same punishment shows that Admins are punished more severely (and so they should be). You cannot equate 2 separate incidents solely because they involved the same word. The good thing about having human admins make these decisions is that they can tell the difference. Of course, being human, we can also make mistakes, as we did in this case, but we fixed it as soon as it was brought to our attention. What more can you expect?

Regarding the Autobahn analogy. Drivers on the autobahn should not be expected to follow the U.S. Highway code.
Regarding the Sporting analogy, rules are "bent" by referees using such methods such as "playing the advantage" in order to keep the game flowing and enjoyable.
I fully understand the desire for consistent application of rules, but I'm not sure that immediate compulsory bans are the way to go if a friendly enjoyable league is the goal.
Last edited by FiringSquad on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:58 am

A few days ago Frank banned me for interrupting a match. I said a few words, then noticed a countdown and said in obs, "is this offi?" someone said yes, I said "oh sorry".
Banned for I think 500 minutes?
Bad language is one thing, joining a server, making a mistake, noticing the mistake, apologizing, banned.
I don't really care about it but it's just another ban to add to the shelf of pointless bans.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Murielle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:28 am

Hi
We all love this game and it is why you have this talk. The best would be everyone follow rules. But in a competitive game and especially in league, some are so involved by this addicting game that they could need to express their emotions. Some would say "wwwoo nice". Other would say "wtf". In regards with the rules, the second ones are wrong.

I do understand admins be strict on rules.

But good rules always come with appropriate sanctions. It is upto the league owners to decide what is appropriate, thu

Nevertheless, bans have never really been THE solution for everything. A ban is really hurting and should be, in my humble opinion, the ultimate decision, especially for those who cheat or try to hack a server.

As the Pink smurf said, It is true that XL used an other system.

1) First, and it goes in same way as kierra comment, in XL people were not banned for their words. They were muted by ip and callsign. The mute was for a duration of 24hours. Because XL used the leagueassistant, the mute spread to all the other servers of the league without using any group of bzbb (and it was not the ipmute plugin refered by blast earlier).

2) when a player was muted, he still could play.

3) If behaviour of a player was not appropriate (excessive TK, dgame disturbing, try to evade the autoreport, excessive /gameover, rage quit before end of game, etc...) XL council decided to remove the spawn permissions of the player. this could have be done independently from the mute process.

4) if someone tried to corrupt the league ( <3 i stare at you TT and Zac <3 ), to break down the servers, to cheat or to spread cheats, we decided to ban

Maybe, avoiding bans and exploring other sanctions system could help. What is expressed in the previous posts is frustration of players who love the league and the game. They just ask more appropriate sanctions.

Bisous everyone - might the fun be back

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Re: Please Read

Post by blast » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:02 am

Zac wrote:Blast: It was not until several complaints and several days after the incident that he was banned. Oversight or not, the issue should have been resolved immediately so as to prevent an obvious bias.
I'm sure you would have found some way to complain about it regardless of how it was handled.
Murielle wrote:1) First, and it goes in same way as kierra comment, in XL people were not banned for their words. They were muted by ip and callsign. The mute was for a duration of 24hours. Because XL used the leagueassistant, the mute spread to all the other servers of the league without using any group of bzbb (and it was not the ipmute plugin refered by blast earlier).
Ah, okay. the pink brit said you had used ipmute, so I was just explaining why ipmute isn't that great of an option.
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Re: Please Read

Post by Zac » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:02 am

I'm sure you would have found some way to complain about it regardless of how it was handled.
you're wrong. ;p

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Re: Please Read

Post by Frank The Tank » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:56 am

Regarding the Autobahn analogy. Drivers on the autobahn should not be expected to follow the U.S. Highway code.
Regarding the Sporting analogy, rules are "bent" by referees using such methods such as "playing the advantage" in order to keep the game flowing and enjoyable.
FS the autobahn on BZ is mofo.
Everywhere else in the World has a speed limit. What is GU's?, somewhere between this speed & that? Set up one speed limit, please.
"Advantaged played" in sport is for accidental mistakes. For willful acts, play is stopped, yellow or red card issued dependent on severity. Red card issued - there is no substitute allowed. Becomes the responsibility of the team not to permit red cards. (have seen Zac rein in a player issued with a yellow card playing on his own team)
This is a Team sport.

In all other sports, referees & players know well what will earn them a yellow or red card.
In GU it is vague & dependent on which referee is watching. Be fair to both admins/cops trying to ref & players play. Without admins/cops wanting be on a map without being harassed..."but that admin did it this way, you're wrong cause you didn't do it like that"
This is a League, not an independent map. Each GU map has the same layout, time line etc.
Give the players, admins/cops what they want. "CONSISTENCY"
It ain't a lot of fun if everyone is allowed to drive at different speeds.

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Re: Please Read

Post by FiringSquad » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:46 pm

I take your point FtT.

I see why consistency is desirable. I'm just not sure how to implement it without making rules for everything.
For offenses like bullying, even in law, there is a great deal of flexibility. Essentially it comes down to, did the person feel bullied. Exactly the same behaviour in a different context would result in a different outcome.

I believe we will just have to live with a certain degree of inconsistency and if players want to play with fire then they have to expect at some time to get burned.
No matter what system we implement, there will be problems.
Although there are a few vocal complainers on this issue, I think their volume distorts the reality. I don't believe we have a big problem when dealing with foul language.
If you use foul language, you can expect at some time to get caught and punished.
Frequent offenders are more likely to get caught and repeat offenders will receive harsher punishments.
That's good enough for me.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Murielle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:40 pm

why not mute rather than ban if the issue is language ?

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Re: Please Read

Post by joevano » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Murielle wrote:why not mute rather than ban if the issue is language ?
Because for team play you kinda need to talk...
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:09 pm

joevano wrote:
Murielle wrote:why not mute rather than ban if the issue is language ?
Because for team play you kinda need to talk...
It's a better punishment if you can't talk in a match than not being able to match at all.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Lil Dog » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:46 pm

Rules are rules.
Rule; Noun

a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement.


If you don't like the rules of the house, take your toys and go buy your own house :P

Really though, I feel as though certain individuals are dwelling too heavily on this topic and need to put aside their pride to admit they broke the rules and were warned for it.. then broke the rules again and were punished for it.. and then they broke the rules again and were punished for it... and the admins say to themselves "well, this one doesn't seem to learn, so we should keep a keen eye on them".. instead of changing, and complying to the actually very simple set of guidelines put in front of us to play in this fine league, they spit in the admins face repeatedly, and taunted them. I think that's wrong, opinion-wise and according to the rules.

The admins that we have were put in place for a reason:
They are mature, wise, and have no tolerance for rule-breakers. Repeated rule breakers receive more punishment each offence. In real life this rings true: http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis_1995/3strikes.html

Don't fight the system that has been set up for you to enjoy just because you're too aggressive or "funny" to reign in your fingers from typing about intercourse with animals on a public server after being asked to stop twice (for example).

-ld

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:46 pm

There's only so many times someone on this post can say "Rules are rules". We're basically discussing how bans seem to effect the activity of the league.
I think the muting would be a good compromise. Saves alot of hassle and keeps the league activity more or less the same. I keep seeing all these stories that don't even have anything to do with keeping the league active. I think everyone would be happy if the bad lang people just used teamspeak, skype or something similar.
Just a note my team racked up 32 hours of matches in less than two months. Don't disregard what we say we do actually help keep activity even if occasionally letting off a "wtf".

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Re: Please Read

Post by kierra » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:26 am

Since you're so keen on activity over a decent community atmosphere, to operate within the constraints of the rules, the options are:
1. mute/kick/ban for language: which we have discussed here is not done across the board amongst admins.

2. Institute a mute banlist : requires constant updating since there are those bent on diarrhea of the keyboard.

3. For those lacking self restraint and/or a sense of decency, a plugin that changes the bad to other phrases (as occurs with language here on the forums) or the plugin seen on other servers that substitutes characters for the bad language. The list of language should be pretty inclusive...better to be safe than sorry.
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Re: Please Read

Post by slime » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:46 am

The admins police the players; who polices the admins?

This is a very touchy topic, so I'll try to do it without offending anyone. That's not my goal at all.

People who are in charge need to result to judgments a lot. For example, if the speed limit is 70, and a police officer sees someone going 71, does he pull them over and write a ticket? He can, but 99.99% of the time he doesn't. I believe that's what this topic is about; lately people have been given these speeding tickets and they believe they weren't warranted. Yet how can they argue, when they obviously broke the rules and went 1 over the speed limit! Yeah, rules are rules. But I personally wouldn't be too happy if I were given a ticket for that, either.

But at the same time, here on BZ, the admins don't have a radar gun to see exactly how fast someone is going, or how bad the offensive language really is. So how can they tell?

It's about communication, folks. Since the day I've started playing, the majority of admins stick up for each other, because they know how hard their task is. For once though, a couple admins need to tell the one's throwing down bans left and right, to lay off a bit. Be a bit more slack. I understand that for some people, bad language is the devil and if you say a bad word it's a terrible sin. But for the majority of players, it's not. If I were playing a match and orbit hit me with some insane shot that I didn't even know were possible (which has happened too many times), I would most likely say 'wtf orb lol'. Are you telling me that's worth a ban now? Sorry, but no. Someone needs to police the admins. And by someone, I mean -- the other admins.

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Re: Please Read

Post by joevano » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:52 am

the pink brit wrote:
joevano wrote:
Murielle wrote:why not mute rather than ban if the issue is language ?
Because for team play you kinda need to talk...
It's a better punishment if you can't talk in a match than not being able to match at all.
Seems to me, that you are complaining because you can't match (at times). That I would say that means the ban IS a better punishment. The problem is you ain't learning and it keeps happening... Not really a problem with the punishment but more with the punishee.

As my last comment on this topic is a definition from Albert Einstein - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Re: Please Read

Post by FiringSquad » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Activity is important for the health of the league and I see how banning one player actually punishes the team as well.
That's much the same way as in real life. You can't decide not to punish somebody just because they have a family.
A form of mute ban could be an effective deterrent and so it is worth looking into.
There are other options too that admins are actively considering.
Watch this space.

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Re: Please Read

Post by AlexanderTheGreat » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:11 pm

i think the mute ban idea has a lot of merit, especially in those gray areas, where a comment isn't malicious, but probably something kids would be better off not seeing. matching without talking is easy-i do it all the time cause i can't talk while i'm concentrating on a match!

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Re: Please Read

Post by Frank The Tank » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:44 pm

slime wrote:. If I were playing a match and orbit hit me with some insane shot that I didn't even know were possible (which has happened too many times), I would most likely say 'wtf orb lol'.

What perfect example of how to use the pm button. Why say it on the Public airways? Why is is it so hard to educate the players to do that?
Some kid watching your match then copies your action using the same intensity you are enjoying in your match with orb on another map & wonders why he/she got hit with a speeding ticket. It is quite simple why he got the ticket he said it in the public airway.
On the flip side if you had no audience, why would an admin care what you do in the privacy of your match. They are only compelled to act when you force them to act by your actions on public airways with a an audience.
Pm him if others are around, "say it, don't type" in the public airways, would make our enjoyment in the League all that much better too.

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Re: Please Read

Post by blinky » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:32 pm

What is all this about punishment, shouldn't it be rehabilitation so it doesn't happen again?
It's proven by the fact people have been banned maybe 3 or 4 times one after the other that bans don't work.

Frank why do you even bother. Just leave.

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Re: Please Read

Post by kierra » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:50 pm

the pink brit: XXX, why do you even bother. Just leave.
You could put any number of names here and find that they have done just that.
Many wonder, where are menotume, ep, zaphod, upsetter, ts, etc etc etc. I'll tell you what some of them have told me, they got tired of dealing with some of the behaviors (ie language, attitudes and troll-like atmosphere) found on bzflag.

Rehabilitation only works with those wanting to change, willing to put the effort into changing a behavior.
A plugin that changes bad language into something sweet or *$&%#, does nothing to help you change...its not rehab.
Re plugin: one way or another there will have to be consensus among the admins as to what makes the bad language list.

Mute ban list and longer bans provide negative reinforcement and are more likely to help shape behavior if done consistently.

Finally, I do take issue with the rudeness of this remark:
Frank why do you even bother. Just leave.
Any one can post an opinion here as long as they stay within the guidelines set by bzbb.
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Re: Please Read

Post by allejo » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:36 am

Honestly, this is getting truly ridiculous. I have no authority in the GU administration but as an admin on other servers, I find it pointless to type out your curses. Really? It is more trouble to type it out then to say it to your computer screen. GU League has rules on profanity and it is run by the GU Admins, ban lengths and bans are to their discretion. Sure you may hate an admin for banning you, but guess what, you're not an admin so who cares. Profanity has become a serious problem everywhere even through acronyms... I get cursed out by elementary school kids now and I don't remember that when I was in elementary...

As for the mentions of using a plugin similar to IPMute or having a mute group, I would like to suggest my humble plugin "Big Brother." I am nearly finished with this plugin but it is essentially IPMute with IP ranges using a banlist, with the addition of "Mute On Sight" capability. The plugin doesn't support being used across multiple servers but I do plan on adding the capability of downloading and uploading a banlist found on one server. I also plan on adding the ability to turn off the auto-ban of laggers, jitters, etc. If anyone would like to help me out with this plugin, you're more than welcome to. If GU league would like to consider using the plugin, I can make the appropriate changes as needed. Just a suggestion.

Stop saying What the - and just suck it up. You guys are making a big deal about a small issue.
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Re: Please Read

Post by Grans Remedy » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:59 am

the pink brit wrote: It's proven by the fact people have been banned maybe 3 or 4 times one after the other that bans don't work.
Nonsense. All that shows is that there are a number of recidivists in the league. While managing them is a waste of everyones time and energy, it is the decent thing to do to let them learn to self-manage, by giving them increasing length bans. Of course any who show no interest in controlling themselves should just get a permanent ban IMO (luckily for some my view isn't shared by the GU admins)
the pink brit wrote: Frank why do you even bother. Just leave.
Wow. Do you not understand how hateful and offensive that is? It's attitudes and behaviour like that which does great harm to the BZF community.
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Re: Please Read

Post by L4m3r » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:06 am

Please keep the discussion civil. A few posts in this thread are nearing a tone that is not appropriate for BZBB. This is not a place for personal gripes, and the productivity level of this topic is going to drop below zero if things get too heated.

---

Now then, it's already been said that the rules are determined by the GU admins, and that's something players are just going to have to tolerate if they want to play in the league and/or on the GU servers. Naturally, enforcement is going to be at the present admins' discretion. This is a human factor that cannot be entirely eliminated.

Reading this thread makes me think that perhaps some details regarding GU's language policy are not well-defined. That might be worth addressing. Likewise, a more general request for greater consistency in server administration is a constructive topic of discussion. Some posts are on this track, but they seem to be getting lost in the fray.

To come out swinging with direct accusations of bias is just inflammatory and accomplishes nothing. Claiming the moral high ground isn't productive either. I would recommend more discussion of constructive suggestions and solutions, and less airing of complaints or debate about overwrought analogies.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.

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Re: Please Read

Post by Wayney » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:29 pm

^^ makes a good point.

Why must you use analogies to try to get your point across? Just make your argument in the context of this discussion rather than some supposedly similar situation.

Geee, it's actually become battle of the analogies in here. :doh:

Quick question. Is the ban page going to update any time soon with the respective ban lengths? I fear you may actually be taking longer to do this than the typical length of ban for this case. :mrgreen:

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Re: Please Read

Post by Monster » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:34 pm

Reading through this thread gives me the impression that in a close community like ours it is all about communication.
Players who witness others cursing could ask them by themselves to stop instead of running to the next admin. That would limit bans and save the admins some work.
Admins should, as they are still doing I believe, try to calm the players down before even warning. Ban or mute should still be the last resort.

Another important factor in order to keep this league enjoyable is the will to compromise.
While players should simply accept that there is a possibility that they might get banned or muted even for acronyms, admins should have a good look on themselves too. The harder the punishment the angrier the reaction of the one punished. The best solution, as so often, could be for both sides to give in a little bit. Admins could be asked to punish reactionary swearing that is not directly adressed to a specific person a bit more gently. Players should on the other hand try to minimize their use of swear words even more to guarantee that nobody gets offended. Remember while for you it might be perfectly clear that your remark is meant to be funny someone could still missunderstand or have an other oppinion on it.
In my oppinion it is a little ridiculous to ban somebody for saying i. e. "oh sh*t" by accident. Admins should be allowed to bent the rules in order to provide a healthy gaming environment. Don't get too lax, don't act too strict.
I am saying this because I am a little bit afraid that this discussion might end in all admins having to follow a set of rules strictly. I do not feel that this is the right way to go.

Best,
Mo

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