A new matching variant for GU league

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red-der
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A new matching variant for GU league

Post by red-der » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:24 am

I propose a new matching variant:

(For a better understanding and easier discussing, the actual teams will be called "regular teams", and the proposed 2 new teams will be called "league-teams" A and B.)
  • - Every player registered in GU League will be associated additionally with one of 2 league-teams.

    - The regular team membership does not change (You stay in your regular team, or you stay teamless).

    - Your league team membership will be randomly assigned every month.

    - League teams can match like any other team , with a few limitations.

Why a new matching variant if the one we have already works?


There are several reasons, some quite obvious, some need a bigger understanding of Statistics and Psychology. But lets keep it simple and start with a few questions and examples to demonstrate the usefulness of league-teams:
  • # How long are you willing to wait for a teammate to show up, if you want to match?

    # If you have a teammate or two, how long do you wait in Observer for a match?

    # Are you in an active team but your teammates/ possible opponents live in a different time zone?

    # Do you like matching teams out of your league and lose 0-7/0-8/0-9?

    # Or otherwise, is it fun to start a match if you already know the outcome (9-0 after 15 min)?

    # Is it some kind of dilemma for you to either stay in your semi-active team and match maybe once every two months or join another team and leave your longtime team(mates)?

    # As a member in a beginner team, would you like to match with some more experienced players? But none of those will join your team or they do not have a spot for you in their team?

    # Do you like official matches but dislike funmatches because of the bad behavior, lack of discipline, player attitude?


###

I added 5 examples of strayers bzflag stats, to show some typical situations and make the problems a little bit more obvious.

Image

A.
A lot of players around, but no teams.
(You can wait a long time and hope for some more players to show up, have time and are willing to match - or you just leave).

B.
1 Team (EIE) has 3 players available but no other teams are around
(They can wait a long time and hope for some more players to show up, have time ....
...if they are lucky, they get a 2vs2)

C.
2 Teams are around
(Is this a match anyone of those 2 teams want to play?)

D.
3 Teams are around
ForestForce just started a 30 min match against Apocalypse, so EIE has to wait at least 30 mins, if ForestForce/ Apocalypse play a rematch, 60 mins. Without any certainty to get a match.

E.
4 Teams are around
Looks like a lot of matching? Not so fast. 1 player of ForestForce is afk, 1 player of Lancers has not enough time to match.
Only possible match would be Apocalypse vs EIE.


The situation with league-teams could be this .
(additionally to the already existing options)

Image


A.
league-team A vs league-team B
(Some players would prefer such a match over a funmatch because the quality and discipline in funmatches decreased a lot)

B.
EIE can match league-team A or B

C.
Instead of 2vs2 Rainbow vs Reptiles, both teams can match each a more balanced league-team. Rainbow can play a 3vs3.

D.
While ForestForce matches Apocalypse, EIE can match a league-team up to 4vs4 or play 2 smaller matches.

E.
Apocalypse, EIE can match each other 3vs3 or they each match a league-team up to 4vs4.


This should give a basic idea in which cases those new league-teams could improve GU league.
In short, less waiting time and the chance of more balanced matches.

xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx

Some questions which may occur:
  • # Can I match my teammates (of my regular team) this way? No, this is not allowed.

    # Are 20 min matches allowed? Yes, of course.

    # Are matches with uneven playercounts allowed (2vs3 for example)? Yes, they are.

    # Can league-team A match league-team B? Yes, of course.

    # How many points does a regular team get for winning against a league-team? The Elo-points won or lost are calculated by the same formula as for matches between regular teams.

    # Can I leave a league-team? No, that is not possible. Every player has to be assigned to one of those teams.

    # Can I switch from league-team A to B, my buddy plays there? No, you can not. You just have to wait till you are randomly in the same league-team.

    # A regular team is challenging a league-team. Do I have to play? You do not have to play. It is completely up to you.

    # A regular team wants to challenge a league-team, but preselect the players to match (We want to match vs player x, y, but not vs player z). Is that ok? It depends... This new mode is meant to give more match opportunities, more even matches. So it is allowed as long as the regular team doesn´t try to manipulate its Elo-rating by only matching the weakest players, or by harassing certain players this way. Adminship will have a close eye on this.

    # My teammate and I are both in the same regular and league team. How do we report this match? In such a case, matches are entered for the regular team.

    # We started a match between 2 regular teams, but we could let 2 in so we have a regular vs league team match. Is that ok? No, matches stay the way they started.

    # Can we have better names than league-team A and league-team B? I hope so, we just use them at the moment for discussing this topic. Feel free to suggest some cool names (Team red / purple for example).

    # Who is leader of the league-teams? The league teams will be administered by the GU adminship.

    # Is there a difference between regular teams and league teams? As far as matching is concerned, there isn´t.

    # If I disturb a league-team match, do I get banned? The ban (and banlength) is the same as for disturbing regular matches.
If there is enough support for this idea, GU league is willing to give this a try.


Some clarifactions and explanations in this post:
http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php? ... 15#p165493

To address concerns over scores and how that effects rankings:
http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php? ... 25#p165521
Last edited by red-der on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kajo
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by kajo » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:54 pm

Since it's just an addition to the usual match making, I'd support this idea.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Nalfein » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:39 pm

I am agree with that, so you have my support about this variant;

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Monster » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:35 pm

I like the idea. This is basically funleague all over again but implemented in the guleague system. Of course I have some concerns.
It will be hard for players, experienced but especially new players, to differenciate between a funmatch and some combination of an official match. therefore I'd suggest, although I know that this would include some coding troubles, to implement something which shows if a match is official or not. Players could chose at the beginning of a match by typing /countdown official or /countdown fm o something around those lines.

If I understand correctly you are planning on listing the two teams in the regular team ladder. So points earned will be determined by the common forumla. While this is fair and simple it could add even more opportunity if they were not listed among the regular teams but seperately. Like this points earned from a match regular team vs one of the 2 teams could be determined by the opponents elo ranking. Like this players of a regular team could chose their opponents in order to have the possibility to earn more points if facing tougher opponents.

All in all i like the idea although I am not quite sure if it is a nessecary addition to the gu league. Lately I feel like we are growing healthy again and this, like ash said, sounds more like a plan for a dying league.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by T-roy » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:22 pm

Alot of good ideas here. I would be willing to give this a try, sounds fun.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:38 pm

Best variant ever seen, I defintly support this idea.
retired

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by MlG » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:43 pm

I think this is a great idea although i share Monster's concerns. It would in any case be useful to have a distinction between fms and offis by the server/countdown. I think these teams should get elo but not be listed in the regular ladder. The elo won/lost in these league-team-matches then could be trasferred to the actual team of the players who played in the league team.
for example if two players from league-team-A played against TFG and won TFG would lose 20 points and each of the "League-Team-Players" would get 10 point for their team. The Elo would be counted for the "league-team" as well but off the "league count" record. This way the "league-team" elo could still be a reference for the elo difference between the opponents. The sum of the elo counts would still be the same on the league-ladder.
So everyone wins (or loses) a bit of score for his team by winning/losing with the "leagueteam" which makes the "league-teams" more competitive.

That is what came to my mind while reading this post.

Hope this will work :)

MlG

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Balls » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:09 am

I actually love this idea! we can get to know each other better 2! :D

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by An SQUERRILz » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:06 am

FOR:
-

AGAINST:
-Although team rating is something to keep an eye on (but not too seriously) for teams, league-teams would pollute the elo pool whether intended or not. So negative impact on official matches.
-A high proportion of FMs are 3v3 or less. Therefore "more serious rated pseudo-FMs" will degrade the quality of what would be normal FMs due to lack of flexibility of balancing teams, switching sides mid-game.
-Team of 2 is too large to have any real meaning/affinity
-"GU league is willing to give this a try." - Have you considered who is going to do the work and what sort of timeframe it would take?
-Being teamless is actually a freedom that some people enjoy with vigor
-Requires more work to set up a match.
-Removes flexibility of FMs such as trying things out and subbing.
-Funmatch league failed. (I supported it; it's a more practical idea, but would need compulsory membership and plugin-assisted automation to really be useful.)

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Frank The Tank » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:09 am

Sorry red, I oppose the idea within the GU League. If it ain't broke don't fix it!!

Some reasons why not;
1. Other leagues created, bz soccer, hix maps with flags etc all failed.
Novel at first but then the novelty wears off.
2 Only see this benefiting active teams to match, so becomes a points grab for the more active teams.
Most random teams are not organized enough to defeat a seasoned team.
3 Where does a players loyalty lie? Creates confusion.
4 What will happen to fun matches? Do we not already have exactly this variance as fm's but why award points to a fun match?
5 FM's are fun, don't take the fun out of them, where play can be a little more informal.
6 Whom is going to spend all the time coding all the alterations then 3 to 6 months down the track the novelty has worn off

Is the criteria really 20 players supporting this?, would hope the 20 players needed have to be experienced seasoned players and not new players who haven't been through so many variants already.

If the idea is to have new with old players across the spectrum then why not have a Rikers style league.
Simple format, not much in the way of additional coding required.
Example Rikers is generally Europe vs North America, what about the rest of the world??


Basic format

1 Separate format to GU League but points, match duration, rules all exactly the same as GU
2 Team is by Ip address
So you are playing for your country or region, this would create more bragging, loyalty.
3 No interference with GU points team standings.
4 For areas with a heavy player base like NA split the states into smaller regions or timezones, another example Germany by region, whatever is fair and reasonable.
5 Maximum player base 10
6 Some countries may need to combine like Australia/New Zealand.

Please leave GU League as it is.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Jacko H » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:55 am

Great thoughts red, your going out there and trying to change stuff.

It is a good idea, but I believe that Offi's will become something of the past, lets not lose the history of the GU league.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by kierra » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:28 pm

Is the criteria really 20 players supporting this?, would hope the 20 players needed have to be experienced seasoned players and not new players who haven't been through so many variants already.
There is no magic number 20
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by macsforme » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:15 pm

Personally I oppose this idea for integration into the GU League itself. It seems like a very complicated system that will create confusion for the players. Confusion leads to a lack of understanding which leads to a lack of activity. Part of the appeal of the GU League for me is the simplicity... one account, one team, one rating, one rank. This makes it easy to jump in and match now and then for people who are short on time. The system isn't perfect, but right now it is at least simple and functional. The perceived issues with time zones and lack of opponents to match could be remedied by having a spectrum of players from different time zones in each team (which some teams have now, although others have chosen to do things differently).

This doesn't seem like an inherently bad idea, but it seems like it would be better kept separate from the GU League. There could even be a "mirror" league set up with all of the same players as GU has, but with this separate ranking system that has been proposed.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by NTH » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:14 pm

Thanks Red for putting together a very nice layout of the idea, I hope everyone gets a change to look it over and ask questions if needed. I would ask if anyone has been tasked to write the code needed to implement this ? if players like it what are the time scales to get it up and running ?
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by FiringSquad » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:19 am

Strayers will need to be updated too, or each player will need a "shadow-player" to be set up in GU, so that we can keep track of who is on which team.
It might be easier to just set up a sister-league that GU-Members are automagically added to. It would certainly simplify the coding. It might even be possible for one league to steal points from the other, so that a team from one league could play a team from the other, officially.
It seems like a simple idea, but the league code was built with certain assumptions. If you modify those assumptions then you are bound to cause a lot of unexpected complications. One of these key assumptions is one-player-one-team. Whatever way we implement this (should that ever happen), it would likely have to comply with that assumption.
I'm always going to support anything that improves the league or increases the fun for players, but there are limits to the resources available to implement such features, so even if it receives major support, it might still never happen. That's just the nature of open source non-profit development. Please bear this in mind when discussing this topic and keep it as simple as possible so that implementation become more feasible.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by slime » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:09 am

I disagree for a few main reasons:

1. I personally, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one, would feel absolutely no loyalty to this automatically assigned team. I would care less if my team A has a bit better score than team B. Matching with these teams would just be a more confusing fun match.
2. Saying that "the GU League would be willing to give this a try" is really vague. I, too, would like to know whether or not anyone has volunteered to do all the work associated with coding and putting this new system together. If there is, then I feel there are other ways that are simpler for both the coder and the players. I feel as though this has been brought up because officials are hard to come by anymore and in fm's many people don't try, so those have lost their fun. So, if you want a system to encourage players to try harder, do something with individual ELO scores or something. There are a number of ELO-like systems already implemented in servers like Planet Mofo, bzf public, and 1v1. Implement that into the GU League, and players can gain/lose individual ELO scores based on their performance in an fm or official. That would be more motivation for players to try, in my opinion, than a randomly assigned team.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by ashvala » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:01 am

I'm opposed to the idea.

I was gonna type out a 2300 character response where I was going to be as thorough with my reasons as a person with OCD carving through a turkey. Sadly, I've decided to spare you guys the trouble.

What I was gonna say in the form of a meme:
Image

However, this would be nice as an alternate league(a la Fun league). If this is going to be implemented within GU, make it opt in so that people will have a choice between participating in the one person-two teams format and remaining in the one person-one team format.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Balls » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:04 pm

After thinking about this some more i think i will have to oppose. It would be to complicated

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by red-der » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:54 pm

I like to add a few things to clarify:
If I understand correctly you are planning on listing the two teams in the regular team ladder. So points earned will be determined by the common formula. While this is fair and simple it could add even more opportunity if they were not listed among the regular teams but separately. Like this points earned from a match regular team vs one of the 2 teams could be determined by the opponents elo ranking. Like this players of a regular team could chose their opponents in order to have the possibility to earn more points if facing tougher opponents.
(Monster)
The elo won/lost in these league-team-matches then could be transferred to the actual team of the players who played in the league team.
for example if two players from league-team-A played against TFG and won TFG would lose 20 points and each of the "League-Team-Players" would get 10 point for their team.
(MLG)
I like this idea but with the actual way of how official matches are entered, this is not possible.

2 Only see this benefiting active teams to match, so becomes a points grab for the more active teams.
(Frank the Tank)
The intention is to have more official matches and less waiting time. So yes, active teams will get more matches and the chance to earn more points.

Being teamless is actually a freedom that some people enjoy with vigor
(An SQUERRIL)
If this is going to be implemented within GU, make it opt in so that people will have a choice between participating in the one person-two teams format and remaining in the one person-one team format.
(ashvala)
Good idea, the possibility to opt out of league-teams should be added.


The elo/ zelo arguments
... so becomes a points grab for the more active teams.
(Frank the Tank)
league-teams would pollute the elo pool whether intended or not.
(An SQUERRIL )
There are other possible ways on how to handle the elo/ zelo, like

# keeping a fix elo/zelo value for the league-teams (like 1000),
# resetting the value every time we randomly renew the teams, or
# just value every win with a fix win of points (2 or 3).

But the main purpose of this new variant is not to heal an already flawed elo/zelo system.
We should wait and see how this actually influences the team ladder / elo/zelo ratings before start arguing about it.

3 Where does a players loyalty lie? Creates confusion.
(Frank The Tank)
I personally... would feel absolutely no loyalty to this automatically assigned team. I would care less if my team A has a bit better score than team B.
(Slime)
Your team loyalty and identification should be with your regular team, not with a league-team. Therefore we randomly assign the players to league-teams and shuffle this every month (or more often).

It seems like a very complicated system that will create confusion for the players. Confusion leads to a lack of understanding which leads to a lack of activity.
Constitution
This system (regular and league-teams) was already implemented in the bzmatchball league, players had no problem to understand and use it.
Lack of match opportunity leads to a lack of activity too.

Requires more work to set up a match.
(An SQUERRIL)
No. In the worst case it takes the same amount of work.
In all other cases it takes less, because you don´t have to track the players (of a regular team) over different servers, you just can ask the Observers.

So, if you want a system to encourage players to try harder, do something with individual ELO scores or something. There are a number of ELO-like systems already implemented in servers like Planet Mofo, bzf public, and 1v1. Implement that into the GU League, and players can gain/lose individual ELO scores based on their performance in an fm or official. That would be more motivation for players to try, in my opinion, than a randomly assigned team.
(Slime)
The problem is not the elo/zelo or players not trying hard enough. The problem is the time wasted in Observer for a match. With that few players we have, letting them sit in Observers when they want to match leads inevitable to them leaving bzflag.

If the idea is to have new with old players across the spectrum then why not have a Rikers style league.
(Frank the Tank)
Separate format to GU League but points, match duration, rules all exactly the same as GU
2 Team is by Ip address
So you are playing for your country or region, this would create more bragging, loyalty.
(Frank the Tank)
There could even be a "mirror" league set up with all of the same players as GU has, but with this separate ranking system that has been proposed.
(Constitution)
There are not enough players for more leagues, so this is out of question.
Separating players by country/ region leads to smaller teams with only a small overlap when they can match each other.
With the already small amount of players, this would be a counterproductive, doomed solution.


The work to do
6 Whom is going to spend all the time coding all the alterations
(Frank the Tank)
I would ask if anyone has been tasked to write the code needed to implement this ?
(NTH)
It seems like a simple idea, but the league code was built with certain assumptions. If you modify those assumptions then you are bound to cause a lot of unexpected complications. One of these key assumptions is one-player-one-team. Whatever way we implement this (should that ever happen), it would likely have to comply with that assumption.
(FiringSquad)
Have you considered who is going to do the work and what sort of timeframe it would take?
(An SQUERRIL)
I, too, would like to know whether or not anyone has volunteered to do all the work associated with coding and putting this new system together.
(Slime)
The required part of GU League/ site is already done, although with a small workaround:
There are 2 new empty teams set up, which contain the callsigns in the team description. This has obviously a few downsides, but will/ would allow to try this variant for a few months without investing a lot of time for recoding/ rewriting the site code. If after such a trial time we want to fully include this variant, I am willing to do the code rewriting.

Strayer was already contacted to get some input from his side, if it is implementable on his stats site and how long it would take for him.



Funmatches
-A high proportion of FMs are 3v3 or less. Therefore "more serious rated pseudo-FMs" will degrade the quality of what would be normal FMs due to lack of flexibility of balancing teams, switching sides mid-game.
(An SQUERRIL)
-Removes flexibility of FMs such as trying things out and subbing.
An SQUERRIL)
4 What will happen to fun matches? Do we not already have exactly this variance as fm's but why award points to a fun match?
5 FM's are fun, don't take the fun out of them, where play can be a little more informal.
(Frank The Tank)
You still can play funmatches like you want to play them, with subbing, 2 in and such. No one denies you that. Nothing will change that.
It only adds the chance of playing an official match when the players want that.
But the same way players have the freedom to decline an official match to play a funmatch, they should have the freedom to play an official match when they want to, instead of being forced into a funmatch.


---


The main purpose of this additional way to play is not to replace existing teams or to remove funmatches.
It will give those teams wanting to play an official match - when no other teams are around or willing to match -a better chance to find such one.
It reduces the waiting time for official matches (yes, some players wait for 2 or 3 hours in Observer)
Therefore it should not be a separate league, or played on separate servers, bzflag just has not enough players for more leagues, servers.



It does requires some kind of altruism and sportsmanship, putting the personal preferences aside, giving others the chance to have a good official match, when they try to find one. It is not about you, it is about the others and about the league.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Zelgadis » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:00 pm

NTH wrote:Thanks Red for putting together a very nice layout of the idea, I hope everyone gets a change to look it over and ask questions if needed. I would ask if anyone has been tasked to write the code needed to implement this ? if players like it what are the time scales to get it up and running ?
That's the main problem. From what I have read above, there are too many problems and concerns, I don't think this is going to work.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by slime » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:37 pm

I understand now, this is a measure to attempt to allow teams with maybe two players online and looking for a match to actually get a match. It's a great idea in theory, but you really have to think harder about the ELO effects for the ladder.

1. Including these two new teams in the ladder like two normal teams makes no sense. It would not be a fair representation of team strength at all.
2. As was mentioned previously, adding these two teams to the ELO pool would dilute it even further. A really high ranked team could match two really good players from team A and lose a ton of points, when a really low ranked team could match two bad players from team A and win, and win a ton of points. I know this issue already exists, but it would multiply the amount of times it happens.
3. Your solution of making these matches a set number of points won/lost of 2-3, would then take the TWO teams useless and only a hindrance in finding a match. Take out the TWO TEAM part of your idea, and just say "if two players on a team are looking for a match, they can match any two (or three..) other players in the league, and it will count as official and the winning team will either win or lose a set amount of points (2-3)." Can't make it simpler than that, and it accomplishes your goal i believe.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:07 pm

This variant should pass.

1. "Who's going to code this?"
According to red-der : 'The GU Council will give it a try, if with enough supporters' There you have it, the GU League admins.

2. "Takes the fun out of FM's" I don't think so, some people like it when ZELO is involved in the team ladder, it makes people try harder, not just goof off in an fm, making the players in the fm ticked off. Some people would actually prefer players to try : "Too much Pressure : don't like the pressure? Do an fm then, a normal fm, this variant, doesn't do anything to anything. It just makes teams eaiser to find an official.

3. "It's a point grab for other teams"

No, a league team team is 'Mixed randomly' with all types of players, new to skilled. "They will only match the easy guys" according to this thread "GU Admins will be looking an eye for teams taking advantage over weaker ones" (paraphrased from red-der) so no worries about this.

4. "Confusion in match reporting"

It's just this simple : Team X vs Team Y, duration, time, score. How hard is that? League Team A vs Reptiles. Well, just think League Team A is a normal, ex.: Ice. Now the thing if I could understand correctly : Reptiles lose 20pts, and 10pts is being given to the league team player A of A and player B of A. That doesn't make sense, what Red-der is trying to say (AFAIK), just report it like normal, reptiles vs loki, duration 12:00 GMT... Score 2-1. And the Formula would just normally be used.

I understand this is sorta similar to Red-der's post, but I want to bring it on further.

Please help Red-der, me, and others who support this.

We would loved for this to pass :)
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kierra
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by kierra » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:37 pm

Snake12534 wrote:1. "Who's going to code this?"
According to red-der : 'The GU Council will give it a try, if with enough supporters' There you have it, the GU League admins.
#1. you are quite mistaken in this, snake and misquote red-der
red-der wrote: I am willing to do the code rewriting.

#2. To clarify, most gu admins do not code...Only a handful can and not necessarily to the extent required by this. Only ts is known in gu circles as a dev. To assume that any of those admins have the time to devote to coding this, is presumptuous on anyone's part...just saying. It's been estimated that this would take 15-20 hr to code and have it cleanly done.

These quotes are funny but drive home a truth:
The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea.
well, "patches welcome" is a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it."
That said, it is admirable of redder to volunteer to code this (assuming it's accepted) and not just presume someone else will do the job. It's not easy to code a patch/plugin and not have it mess up previous working, established code....many times you create additional problems. Just saying :)
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Snake12534
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:37 am

kierra wrote:
Snake12534 wrote:1. "Who's going to code this?"
According to red-der : 'The GU Council will give it a try, if with enough supporters' There you have it, the GU League admins.
#1. you are quite mistaken in this, snake and misquote red-der
red-der wrote: I am willing to do the code rewriting.

#2. To clarify, most gu admins do not code...Only a handful can and not necessarily to the extent required by this. Only ts is known in gu circles as a dev. To assume that any of those admins have the time to devote to coding this, is presumptuous on anyone's part...just saying. It's been estimated that this would take 15-20 hr to code and have it cleanly done.

These quotes are funny but drive home a truth:
The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea.
well, "patches welcome" is a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it."
That said, it is admirable of redder to volunteer to code this (assuming it's accepted) and not just presume someone else will do the job. It's not easy to code a patch/plugin and not have it mess up previous working, established code....many times you create additional problems. Just saying :)
Ah, thanks the information. Didn't read his most recent post carefully. Just read the thread ;)
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by NTH » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:32 pm

If this is to fly it needs real work carried out on the code base, this will give us the correct implementation and ability to refine what does and doesn't work. Creating two place holder teams doesn't address concerns over scores and how that effects rankings. Placing the two teams Red vs Green in there own ladder seems pointless, it will either be RED or GREEN in first or second.

The Red vs Green idea and splitting of players is sound. ( You also need an opt out + perhaps a check to see if they have logged in that month to be included)

Everything else is open and needs working on.

I'm not expecting Red (The player not the team) to come up with all the answers, what I'm expecting is people to be open minded and share what they think might be problems and how to over come them. 20 minute matches is a good example, several times it was attempted to be introduced with players listing the problems. Even sighting it will be the end of GU but we have 20 minute matches and you don't have to play in them but it's an option. They also earn you less points than 30 minute matches in the same way playing for RED or Green could be limited in points.

I see RED vs Green not as a league but an option to play more on a competitive level (sort of an FM+). It might need to be in a league of its own but we haven't got that far enough down the planning stage to tell.
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