A new matching variant for GU league

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by black listed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:20 pm

I completely love this idea as long as the regular teams stay the same!

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by red-der » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:18 pm

black hawk wrote:I completely love this idea as long as the regular teams stay the same!
The regular teams stay completely the same

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by red-der » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:19 pm

To address concerns over scores and how that effects rankings.
-Although team rating is something to keep an eye on (but not too seriously) for teams, league-teams would pollute the elo pool whether intended or not.
(An SQUERRIL )
A new (or in this case 2) new league-team(s) would have the same "pollution effect" like any other new team. If this was a valid argument, we mustn´t allow new teams to be founded.

1. Including these two new teams in the ladder like two normal teams makes no sense. It would not be a fair representation of team strength at all.
(Slime)
The Elo / score of a team is a fluctuating, theoretical representation of the average team strength, based on the active players playing official matches. Depending on the team structure, it represents the strength quite well, or not at all. For the team-leagues, it would not be different.



A really high ranked team could match two really good players from team A and lose a ton of points, when a really low ranked team could match two bad players from team A and win, and win a ton of points. I know this issue already exists, but it would multiply the amount of times it happens.
(Slime)
Yes. The (statistical) range between the weakest and the strongest player will be bigger than in most other teams.
But we already have this problem. The team-score (elo) has not a high correlation with the possible match outcome anymore. It depends more on the players playing than on the rank on the ladder.

But is the "two strong players could steal my points" really a good argument?
Vice versa we could say: "You get too many points by matching a weak league-team!"

Some teams try to manipulate their position on the ladder / elo by only matching weak teams, or only matching the weakest players of a stronger team. That is ok. They gain temporarly more points and a higher rank, but sooner or later they face a stronger team and will fall deeper.

First of all, no one forces anyone to play vs a league-team. If you are not up to it, don´t do it.
But if you match a strong league-team and lose: Accept it, go on.

You may have lost a lot of points (and for some players that hurts a lot), but you will win therefore more points in your next matches. Statistically there is not much impact at all for your teams elo/ ranking (in the longrun).


An example: Let´s compare how this would play out after an initial loss, followed by wins vs teams of different strength.
(based on strayers elo calculator)

Your teamscore is 1443
(both teams play the exact same matches after their initial loss)

Case A: loss vs a lowranked league-team (score 1081), resulting in a new score of 1424.
Case B: loss vs a topranked regular team (score 1805), which brings your score down to 1437.

The initial difference is 13 points, 10 points after 5 matches, 8 points after 10 matches, and a mere 3 points after 20 matches. It is safe to say that even such matches have hardly any influence at all.

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This would be a more important issue if it was a league with a fix start and end date, and where the rank/ elo on such a date would have major influence/ importance. But GU league is played as an endless league, after a few more matches the worst case results are compensated.
Last edited by red-der on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by An SQUERRILz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:08 am

red-der wrote: The elo/ zelo arguments
... so becomes a points grab for the more active teams.
(Frank the Tank)
league-teams would pollute the elo pool whether intended or not.
(An SQUERRIL )
There are other possible ways on how to handle the elo/ zelo, like

# keeping a fix elo/zelo value for the league-teams (like 1000),
# resetting the value every time we randomly renew the teams, or
# just value every win with a fix win of points (2 or 3).

But the main purpose of this new variant is not to heal an already flawed elo/zelo system.
We should wait and see how this actually influences the team ladder / elo/zelo ratings before start arguing about it.
So the three solutions you proposed were:
# Provide an infinite sink and source of rating inflation.
# Provide a sink and source of rating inflation while introducing noise into rating exchanges.
# Make rating less meaningful

Referring to elo having flaws does not justify deliberate pollution. Elo assumes that a player is indivisible, and it works well enough despite the fact that human performance is variable.
Why should we wait until something bad happens when the potential is obvious now?
Btw it's not zelo.
red-der wrote:
Requires more work to set up a match.
(An SQUERRIL)
No. In the worst case it takes the same amount of work.
In all other cases it takes less, because you don´t have to track the players (of a regular team) over different servers, you just can ask the Observers.
Maybe you don't appreciate the effort of organizing teams in FMs. With your system you have to start thinking about: say there are 5 Ice members on LeagueTeamA, 5 on LeagueTeamB, and all Ice is online. However only up to 5 / 10 of us can play in a LeagueTeamA vs LeagueTeamB match because can't match someone in your own team.
red-der wrote: You still can play funmatches like you want to play them, with subbing, 2 in and such. No one denies you that. Nothing will change that.
Nothing except for people jumping on the LeagueTeam bandwagon then realising FMs are better.
red-der wrote:
-Although team rating is something to keep an eye on (but not too seriously) for teams, league-teams would pollute the elo pool whether intended or not.
(An SQUERRIL )
A new (or in this case 2) new league-team(s) would have the same "pollution effect" like any other new team. If this was a valid argument, we mustn´t allow new teams to be founded.
You're omitting the fact that teams are limited to 20 members, and usually 5 or less are active. For a league team you might as well flip a coin to see who wins, over the long run.
red-der wrote: The initial difference is 13 points, 10 points after 5 matches, 8 points after 10 matches, and a mere 3 points after 20 matches. It is safe to say that even such matches have hardly any influence at all.
Your use of math as evidence is 1st degree BS. Obviously a team who beats a lower team with 75% probability is not going to gain much elo; you simply showed us a point of diminishing returns and a decaying transient when in reality there will be periodic impulses (rematches). In the steady state a team who "smartly" matches against league teams would indirectly suck points out of teams who just match whenever. You're also missing the basic understanding that ratings are only meaningful in relation to other ratings. "A mere 3 points" is a statistical fallacy.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by red-der » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:15 am

Nothing except for people jumping on the LeagueTeam bandwagon then realising FMs are better.
I believe in the freedom of choosing what kind of match to play. If players prefer to play a match vs a league-team, it is their choice. If they like it, good. If they realize they prefer funmatches, also good. But it is their decision, not yours, not mine.
teams are limited to 20 members, and usually 5 or less are active
With your system you have to start thinking about: say there are 5 Ice members on LeagueTeamA, 5 on LeagueTeamB, and all Ice is online. However only up to 5 / 10 of us can play in a LeagueTeamA vs LeagueTeamB match because can't match someone in your own team.
You take a lot of assumptions and are going to great length to prove your point - although based on strayers stats such a thing as all 10 ICE online and ready to match has never happened.

---

I - and some others - would appreciate it if you could bring something useful to this thread.
It is obvious that elo rating is something extremely important for you, and that is fine. You brought some points of criticism, theoretically valid, but irrelevant in the practical every day use in GU league matching. For most others, having the ability to play official matches is more important than potential problems with the elo rating.

And if you really want to go on discussing this on a more academical basis, instead of the layman´s terms I intentionally used to present it here in this thread: Go on, open your own thread and present your facts and a correct statistical analysis there. I might join you. But hijacking this thread and just calling it BS is quite impolite and bad behavior.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by An SQUERRILz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:56 am

red-der wrote: It is obvious that elo rating is something extremely important for you, and that is fine.
It is not important to me. You brought up potential rating issues, suggesting that admins could soothe any mischief. That is an inaccurate expectation. You also suggested that elo has flaws so it doesn't matter. I for one prefer that it doesn't get worse.
red-der wrote: For most others, having the ability to play official matches is more important than potential problems with the elo rating.
Well if you really know what most others want, there's not much need to ask everyone.
red-der wrote: And if you really want to go on discussing this on a more academical basis, instead of the layman´s terms I intentionally used to present it here in this thread: Go on, open your own thread and present your facts and a correct statistical analysis there. I might join you. But hijacking this thread and just calling it BS is quite impolite and bad behavior.
Maybe I wasn't so clear. For the benefit of the layman, I was simply pointing out how you used math to tell a lie. Your math may be correct but your conclusion is not.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by blast » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:16 am

red-der wrote:And if you really want to go on discussing this on a more academical basis, instead of the layman´s terms I intentionally used to present it here in this thread: Go on, open your own thread and present your facts and a correct statistical analysis there. I might join you. But hijacking this thread and just calling it BS is quite impolite and bad behavior.
Why would discussing the flaws of your statements require starting a new thread? Perhaps you don't understand what "hijacking a thread" means. An SQUERRIL's post was certainly on topic for this discussion.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by nostromo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:17 pm

I find this new concept intriguing, I like it.
If I remember correct, this was already used in bzmatchball, and brought some activity there.

I can understand both poins of view (discussing it in all deep or focusing on other stuff because the influence is negligible), but it is a lil bit tiresome to read all the stuff here and follow arguements on how theoretically this new kind of play inflicts the ladder.

Are there any other things beside this elo-topic and the coding preventing it from implemention?

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by FiringSquad » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:02 pm

I think the constant random team assignment might become annoying. You work hard to build your team's score only to be kicked off it.
There may need to be some reward for achieving wins.
I was thinking that individual scores could be kept, but that would mean complicated match-entry, especially if there was subbing.
So perhaps instead, a score kept of your likelihood to be on the better group-team, i.e. a group-ELO maintained for every player, to be re-calculated at every re-shuffle.
It should probably take account of the team's initial score and then make adjustments to members' group-ELO based on the difference at re-shuffle time.
Over time, it will become obvious which players are more valuable team-members.
Someone who gets killed a lot but captures flags will get the same reward as someone who rarely gets killed but defends well. While someone who just concentrates on individual kill-ratio will not necessarily be rewarded at all.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Irrefutable » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:42 pm

I agree with this I love it. NO MORE FRUSTUATION

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Monster » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:47 pm

3. Your solution of making these matches a set number of points won/lost of 2-3, would then take the TWO teams useless and only a hindrance in finding a match. Take out the TWO TEAM part of your idea, and just say "if two players on a team are looking for a match, they can match any two (or three..) other players in the league, and it will count as official and the winning team will either win or lose a set amount of points (2-3)." Can't make it simpler than that, and it accomplishes your goal i believe.
~slime

I agree with slime on his last point. Combined with FS' point about keeping personal elo rankings this might work out. If it was possible, in terms of coding, to generate elo scores for players for kill/death-ratio, caps, etc., two members of a regular team could match two random players and the points gained or lost could be determined by the elo ranking of besaid players. If they win, they gain a higher elo ranking, if they lose the regular team earns points. This would not hinder fms from happening since this always needs at least one regular team to be present. Again, I have no clue about the coding aspect of this.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by allejo » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:13 am

I'm not too active in GU matches, mainly just FMs and some coding (now more recently) but I oppose the idea. Personally, I believe this is going to be adding too much confusion for all the players to keep track of. From reading through this topic, it seems that players responding that they like it only say that and do not explain what they like about it which makes me wonder whether they actually like the idea or the idea of more official matches; there are more people against the idea with valid reasons and explanations. From a coding perspective, this is going to take an immense amount of time to implement into the current league website not to mention the changes to the database that will be needed. Another reason I say 'immense amount' because like kierra said, there is no developer team aside from ts and I'm sure he has a personal life so I it'll take a while for it to be completed. From my point of view, this just seems like a poor attempt to encourage more official matches by starting a mini separate league inside a currently functional league. I say poor because now these squad matches will be taking away the focus of the normal team matches, hence my reference to a mini separate league. And one last note, if players are scored individually, will this encourage team work or will players get jealous?

On a side note, are you trying to get a promotion in GU?
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:45 am

(A repeat on things said before)

This is not going to change the league, I don't possibly understand how adding a new option is gonna damage and destroy the league. This variant is for helping teams find official matches more quicker, as I said before, some people prefer recording the matches called officials. FM's are not similiar to this new option/variant. Also, don't be calling anyone's opinions and ideas BS... If red-der is in to this variant, let him code it, if ts doesn't want to, red-der can do it. He's smart enough. Just please be flexible with us, if you guys don't like the added(notice the emphais) option, don't try it. Thank you.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by allejo » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:53 am

Snake12534 wrote:(A repeat on things said before)
No need to repeat yourself then. I am posting newly to this thread not expecting a response from you.
Snake12534 wrote:This is not going to change the league
The post is called "new matching variant for GU league." It's going to change the league ;)
Snake12534 wrote:This variant is for helping teams find official matches more quicker,
It's not helping teams find official matches, it's creating new "official matches."
Snaje12534 wrote:Also, don't be calling anyone's opinions and ideas BS...
Never called it a BS idea. I just said it was a poor idea and I explained my reasons as to why I thought that.
Snake12534 wrote:If red-der is in to this variant, let him code it, if ts doesn't want to, red-der can do it. He's smart enough.
To my knowledge, red-der doesn't code PHP.
Snake12534 wrote:Just please be flexible with us, if you guys don't like the added(notice the emphais) option, don't try it.
The post is asking for our opinions, so we're posting our opinions. Besides, this is not an "added option," it's a proposal requesting feedback. And I see no emphasis, there's no bold or italics or underline.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:35 am

allejo wrote:
Snake12534 wrote:(A repeat on things said before)
No need to repeat yourself then. I am posting newly to this thread not expecting a response from you.
Snake12534 wrote:This is not going to change the league
The post is called "new matching variant for GU league." It's going to change the league ;)
Snake12534 wrote:This variant is for helping teams find official matches more quicker,
It's not helping teams find official matches, it's creating new "official matches."
Snaje12534 wrote:Also, don't be calling anyone's opinions and ideas BS...
Never called it a BS idea. I just said it was a poor idea and I explained my reasons as to why I thought that.
Snake12534 wrote:If red-der is in to this variant, let him code it, if ts doesn't want to, red-der can do it. He's smart enough.
To my knowledge, red-der doesn't code PHP.
Snake12534 wrote:Just please be flexible with us, if you guys don't like the added(notice the emphais) option, don't try it.
The post is asking for our opinions, so we're posting our opinions. Besides, this is not an "added option," it's a proposal requesting feedback. And I see no emphasis, there's no bold or italics or underline.
First of all, that post wasn't a reply back to you ;)

I said "It was not gonna destroy the league", you didn't extend my quote :(

And Didn't red-der said he volunteered to code this for his self? I can help him anyway possible as well, just got in the buisness to maps/plugins/etc.

Unfortunately, I couldn't put my text in bold or itilics.

Yes, we are asking for opinions, but no need to be harsh and call ideas BS. We are asking that you guys are flexible to give it a try :)
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by PerMagnam » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:32 am

Interresting discusion so far.
The idea to add leagueteams to reduce waiting times and offer the chance for more matching:

+1 / like, from me.

Maybe some players have not noticed it yet, but gu league and leagues in general are on the verge of extinction. It is true that there are matches played, sometims many matches. But look who plays them: just a few, heavy playing players keep the regular teams afloat. This guy, zac, without him, Firebirds nearly never matched. ForrestForce without Brad, 80% less activity. OtL without llrr, or EiE without James/ Firingsquad.


But it is a little bit strange what kind of arguments are brought here (and the ulterior motive behind):
To justify my opinion just 2 examples:

@allejo: "I'm not too active in GU matches, mainly just FMs " I guess this is a nice euphemism for being banned.
(in case I take you for someone else with a similarish callsign, I retract this comment)
@ An Squerril: You make a lot of noise about the elo rating, but you hardly match (ICE played 87 matches the last 150 days and you have played in less than a 1/3 or 1/4).

So why and how should I value the opinion of players who hardly play or do not play at all? I know, freedom of speech and everyone is entitled to their opinion... But the league play is carried by those players who actually play official matches or want to play official matches on a regular basis. So their concerns are more important for me.

I do understand the concern about the influence of new teams on the elo.
Just remember 2010 when some players on a nearly daily basis founded teams (starting with 1200), lost a few matches and terminated them just start the next one. I could go on and on with those examples. Or remember how sunspot reached more than 2000 points, wouldn´t have been possible without the "polution of the elo pool" with fresh newbies, loosing all their matches.

I would prefer to hear from those players who sit in observers, waiting for a match, or a teammate to show up, waiting there for hours. Do they care much about the elo, ranking, or would the just like to official match?

And about the "play funmatches if there is no official match" argument: This is called GU League. not "GU funmatch bunch". If you run or take part in a league, there is some kind of duty to keep this flying. If your argument is to "go, play funmatches", my answer is "go, get a new funmatch league going" And that brings me to my final point:

Those all who argue against something new or were against this kind of playing:

Any ideas how to get more official match activity? How to reduce the waiting time for official matches?

So maybe spend less time about how you can even further "prove" your reasoning against league teams, spend more time to think about viable different options. And if there are none, maybe we have to go with the 2nd best solution, league-teams for example.
Last edited by PerMagnam on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by blast » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:24 am

PerMagnam wrote:So why and how should I value the opinion of players who hardly play or do not play at all? I know, freedom of speech and everyone is entitled to their opinion... But the league play is carried by those players who actually play official matches or want to play official matches on a regular basis. So their concerns are more important for me.
Why should we value the opinion of someone that registered an account 40 minutes ago for the sole purpose of posting in this thread? If you're a member of the GU league, it's certainly not with this account you just created. Are you afraid of expressing your opinion with your normal account name?
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by PerMagnam » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:01 pm

... registered an account 40 minutes ago for the sole purpose of posting in this thread? If you're a member of the GU league, it's certainly not with this account you just created. Are you afraid of expressing your opinion with your normal account name?
To answer your question:Indeed I am.
I already experienced harassment by players who didn´t like critical but objective words in a discussion, which was 1 reason why I quit playing bzf (and GU league) at all. It is just not cool to be followed by some crazy bzf players into different games, just to get dissed there.

But back to topic:
I just spoke my opinion like anybody else.There is no need to value my opinion more or less, or value it at all.
If you don´t like it, ignore it.

But I do beleive these are valid questions and concerns I posted.

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Snake12534 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:17 pm

I would like to state out something going along with paras' ideas. My mate slyther this past week, has been a bit busy, immediately reptiles' activity drops. He came back on yesterday, and we waited 2 hours for an official! In the end, we had to go. Last time, I had no mate, and I had to spend hours in obs wathcing officials! As an observer, I speak as a supporter.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by allejo » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:28 pm

PerMagnam wrote:Interresting discusion so far.
The idea to add leagueteams to reduce waiting times and offer the chance for more matching:

+1 / like, from me.

Maybe some players have not noticed it yet, but gu league and leagues in general are on the verge of extinction. It is true that there are matches played, sometims many matches. But look who plays them: just a few, heavy playing players keep the regular teams afloat. This guy, zac, without him, Firebirds nearly never matched. ForrestForce without Brad, 80% less activity. OtL without llrr, or EiE without James/ Firingsquad.


But it is a little bit strange what kind of arguments are brought here (and the ulterior motive behind):
To justify my opinion just 2 examples:

@allejo: "I'm not too active in GU matches, mainly just FMs " I guess this is a nice euphemism for being banned.
(in case I take you for someone else with a similarish callsign, I retract this comment)
@ An Squerril: You make a lot of noise about the elo rating, but you hardly match (ICE played 87 matches the last 150 days and you have played in less than a 1/3 or 1/4).

So why and how should I value the opinion of players who hardly play or do not play at all? I know, freedom of speech and everyone is entitled to their opinion... But the league play is carried by those players who actually play official matches or want to play official matches on a regular basis. So their concerns are more important for me.

I do understand the concern about the influence of new teams on the elo.
Just remember 2010 when some players on a nearly daily basis founded teams (starting with 1200), lost a few matches and terminated them just start the next one. I could go on and on with those examples. Or remember how sunspot reached more than 2000 points, wouldn´t have been possible without the "polution of the elo pool" with fresh newbies, loosing all their matches.

I would prefer to hear from those players who sit in observers, waiting for a match, or a teammate to show up, waiting there for hours. Do they care much about the elo, ranking, or would the just like to official match?

And about the "play funmatches if there is no official match" argument: This is called GU League. not "GU funmatch bunch". If you run or take part in a league, there is some kind of duty to keep this flying. If your argument is to "go, play funmatches", my answer is "go, get a new funmatch league going" And that brings me to my final point:

Those all who argue against something new or were against this kind of playing:

Any ideas how to get more official match activity? How to reduce the waiting time for official matches?

So maybe spend less time about how you can even further "prove" your reasoning against league teams, spend more time to think about viable different options. And if there are none, maybe we have to go with the 2nd best solution, league-teams for example.
My, my. For someone who just registered today, you know an awful lot about what's going around BZFlag. I mean, really? You've met brad, Zac, and the GU league teams in less than a day? I am very impressed, my friend. Oh, where are my manners, welcome to BZFlag! As per your comment of me getting banned, I suggest you retract it since the only people who have ever wanted me banned are people with no admin powers anywhere (i.e. Dazzling124, sanctified, Snake12534). Furthermore, I would prefer to see more comments from players who have actually been playing GU, I don't see why we should take your post seriously since you aren't even part of the GU league spawn list.

P.S. I don't play much but that doesn't mean I don't help out ;)

Edit: Oh my apologies for not noticing this was a second callsign for you. If you already know BZFlag, you'd know that is GU is far from extinction. And if you know the community well, I don't see why you'd take a shot at me saying I was banned ;)
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by ducktape » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:24 pm

I think this post should be changed to a poll. Primarily because I'm tired of snake reposting just to say he supports this idea, and secondly because I think a lot of good insight has been said on this idea.

I would vote neither yes or no, I would go for a third option of perhaps having a sister league to the GU League where you have the 2 randomly generated teams, and solely do fm's, perhaps with points if people want them. I think this would add exclusivity to the actual league play. The GU league has become somewhat monotonous. It would give newcomers to the league the chance to experience matches without creating an entirely new team. I agree with slime that this could do away with the bonds of your actual teammates, and for that reason I would love to see this idea incorporated just more so as secondary/intro league. I think the only way to see success in this is to make it optional, say I know I have a couple hours today where I can play some matches, I simply go to the "Free match" tab (or whatever you want to call it) and click "Put me in a team", and I'll randomly be added to team one or team two and I can match for the day or however long I please. Then the teams will be randomized, rinse and repeat.

Bottom Line, Can we make this thread a Poll? Perhaps with 3 options like 'yes', 'no' and 'maybe/would like to pursue the idea' ?
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by kierra » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:07 pm

There have been several variations on a theme here regarding Team red/ Team green that to create a poll would assume that we all agree on particulars.
It's obvious that we don't agree on all the ideas presented.
Somehow have to narrow it down and for that we need specific discussion without the jabs at players' input!
NTH wrote:If this is to fly it needs real work carried out on the code base, this will give us the correct implementation and ability to refine what does and doesn't work. Creating two place holder teams doesn't address concerns over scores and how that effects rankings. Placing the two teams Red vs Green in there own ladder seems pointless, it will either be RED or GREEN in first or second.

The Red vs Green idea and splitting of players is sound. ( You also need an opt out + perhaps a check to see if they have logged in that month to be included)

Everything else is open and needs working on.
I'm expecting is people to be open minded and share what they think might be problems and how to over come them. 20 minute matches is a good example, several times it was attempted to be introduced with players listing the problems. Even sighting it will be the end of GU but we have 20 minute matches and you don't have to play in them but it's an option. They also earn you less points than 30 minute matches in the same way playing for RED or Green could be limited in points.

I see RED vs Green not as a league but an option to play more on a competitive level (sort of an FM+). It might need to be in a league of its own but we haven't got that far enough down the planning stage to tell.
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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Frank The Tank » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:14 pm

I want to reflect on a couple of points for the moment
red-der wrote:2 Only see this benefiting active teams to match, so becomes a points grab for the more active teams.
(Frank the Tank)
The intention is to have more official matches and less waiting time. So yes, active teams will get more matches and the chance to earn more points.
Then the point raised is correct more active teams benefit and grab points off the rotating less organized fun match team red or green.

In the wide World of sports it is unprecedented to have a make shift team in a league. Anytime a touring team plays in another country a make shift team made of players by invitation has a fun match at the end of the Tour for a bit of a giggle. It is not a competition, it is for fun. So now let's advocate biased results to climb the points ladder.

To make this work players would have to have a publicly recorded ELO statistic according to FS.
Lets now discriminate a worthy player from a less worthy player and advertise it with your own personnel ELO.
Before a match begins we should then get rid of 'hf'= 'have fun' because now we are playing for ELO stats so we can get picked and be rewarded to play in a green or red team. WOW, thought we were collectively a little better than school yard tactics of "I want that person in my team or no I don't want to match that person in that team" Who wants their kids exposed to this, and we are going to condone it? Are we still having fun?

There are already enough players in the League who feel intimidated by players with superior skills now we want to rub their face in it?
I thought bullying was outlawed on GU, am I mistaken? No, because now we are going to label you as a player to identify if your worthy to match against.
Lets use post it notes. Are we still having fun?
Makes a mockery of banning players for harassment.

I know of so many players who are timid, won't match, get discouraged because they feel like they let their mates down, yes even in fun matches.
At the moment they have the discretion to join or otherwise. We will put a label on them and take that discretion away with ELO.
The pool of players will increase using red's model and with ELO or decrease?
To use ELO, I would assume Strayers or the like would modify and collect the data. For this, or to use red's model it should be for the player to allow someone to collect the data and publicly display it. The player surely has the right to choose to OPT IN not to OPT OUT.
By having the choice to OPT OUT means it's already being publicly displayed & documented.

Following on from Ducktapes' idea
Just another crazy idea but why not have an admin or cop independent from this, gu mail every player asking if they wish to OPT IN for ELO stats, what they mean, how ELO would be used & displayed along with do they wish to OPT IN on red's idea and let those players choose. Put a timeline on it say 3 weeks if a player has not replied then they have chosen to OPT OUT.

Be very wary of prejudice and discrimination

Fun matches cater for exactly what is advocated in red's model, we do not need to turn Fun Matches into a structured event for the sake of some official points for those that are more competitive and active than others and like to be rewarded with some points at the end of it all.

To quote red
red-der wrote:
It does requires some kind of altruism and sportsmanship, putting the personal preferences aside, giving others the chance to have a good official match, when they try to find one. It is not about you, it is about the others and about the league.
Well red there a players in GU who are competitive, players who are here to have fun, players who just are here to hang out.

Some players are just here to have fun, accept it and leave them alone.
BTW love ashs' poster note.

Cheers
FtT

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by Frank The Tank » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:27 pm

PerMagnam wrote:Maybe some players have not noticed it yet, but gu league and leagues in general are on the verge of extinction. It is true that there are matches played, sometims many matches. But look who plays them: just a few, heavy playing players keep the regular teams afloat. This guy, zac, without him, Firebirds nearly never matched. ForrestForce without Brad, 80% less activity. OtL without llrr, or EiE without James/ Firingsquad.
Wow red-der, you seriously need to use an another alias??
PerMagnam, where did you get that name from?

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Re: A new matching variant for GU league

Post by slime » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:23 pm

PerMagnam wrote:Maybe some players have not noticed it yet, but gu league and leagues in general are on the verge of extinction. It is true that there are matches played, sometims many matches. But look who plays them: just a few, heavy playing players keep the regular teams afloat. This guy, zac, without him, Firebirds nearly never matched. ForrestForce without Brad, 80% less activity. OtL without llrr, or EiE without James/ Firingsquad.
False. I don't really understand how you can say the league is on the verge of extinction, then proceed to say many matches are played. Eventually yes, the league and BZFlag will die, but that time is not close. If it were on the verge of extinction, there would have been no matches played in the last 30 days.

PerMagnam wrote:So why and how should I value the opinion of players who hardly play or do not play at all? I know, freedom of speech and everyone is entitled to their opinion... But the league play is carried by those players who actually play official matches or want to play official matches on a regular basis. So their concerns are more important for me.
PerMagnam wrote:I quit playing bzf (and GU league)
PerMagnam wrote:I just spoke my opinion like anybody else.There is no need to value my opinion more or less, or value it at all.
If you don´t like it, ignore it.
Lol.. :doh:
PerMagnam wrote:I would prefer to hear from those players who sit in observers, waiting for a match, or a teammate to show up, waiting there for hours. Do they care much about the elo, ranking, or would the just like to official match?
PerMagnam wrote:Any ideas how to get more official match activity? How to reduce the waiting time for official matches?

So maybe spend less time about how you can even further "prove" your reasoning against league teams, spend more time to think about viable different options. And if there are none, maybe we have to go with the 2nd best solution, league-teams for example.
If officialing was really that important to someone that they sat in observer for hours on end waiting for a teammate to show up, then maybe they can find a new team with players who are more active and on at similar times. There are other solutions than just the one being talked about in this thread. Perhaps you should have spent some more time to think of viable different options before posting.

The only reason I am repeating this is because I feel as though it got lost in the discussion and a couple of people have agreed with at least the theory of it. Why not just say, players can match against whoever they want as an official match, it just won't count for nearly as many points/elo as normal official matches. For example: Myself and plasma kaz (as both members of the team BZB) cannot find a match. We sit around and wait but none come. So we ask around, "would any two people like to official match us?" For the sake of discussion, let's say dexter and hurricane are around. They agree to an official match, even though they are not on the same team. So it is effectively BZB vs dexter/hurricane or BZB vs players. Say BZB lost, so we would lose 2 points. Say BZB won, so we would win 2 points. These points gained/lost are regardless of any player strength, it is a set number (naturally, the number can be whatever is decided on). Dexter/hurricane would gain or lose no points, just like in a normal fm. However, it would be a much more competitive match than a normal fm.

This idea would:
1. Increase activity
2. Not pollute the ELO pool (1 or 2 points per win/loss would not make a difference, as red-der's earlier graph points out)
3. Keep competitiveness
4. Choice of teams would remain in the players' hands
5. Require less and easier coding


I would like to hear the cons of this idea, because the idea maker can never think of them themselves. This was just my best try at thinking of a solution that can be considered something like that of a compromise. I can definitely appreciate what red-der is trying to do with his idea, but I'm worried there are just too many cons right now. However, whatever is decided on will have my support, and I will do my best to offer my opinions whenever I can.

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