New Tournament Cup

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sillysir
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New Tournament Cup

Post by sillysir » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:43 am

Has anyone thought about making a riker cup....for new players? Instead of bringing together the most skilled players of North America and Europe, bring together the least skilled and/or new players of GU. And since we may not be able to find enough players who fit the requirements in only NA and Euro, perhaps this would be a chance to go world wide, and allow the outcast Australians and other countries to join in a cup.

But I am not sure how to determine who is least skilled. I mean we could have each team poll on 1-2 members they think are least skilled. Or we could simply have the Riker Cup captains pick the planned substitutes for Riker Cup.
Last edited by sillysir on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:45 pm

SillySir wrote:But I am not sure how to determine who is least skilled.
That.
SillySir wrote:I mean we could have each team poll on 1-2 members they think are least skilled.
You honestly think players will feel honoured to be representing a team as their least skilled members?
Furthermore, you think the teams would actually vote who they really think is the least skilled? They could just pick the most skilled players, and no one would be able to say a thing.

I don't think this idea could work out.
Last edited by dang dizzy white on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by kierra » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:18 pm

Don't designate people as noobs :)

I think a better idea is just to have a generic 10 vs 10 contest of regular players.....called by another name....not Rikers which is like the olympics of gu, NA vs Euro.

sillysir: Why don't you organize it, choose the first 2 captains and let them choose their co-captains (so leadership is a team effort). The capt/co-capt then choose their team members.

After this week, I'll be more available. Catch me on facebook or IRC as well.
Once you decide on the organization part, then servers (I can maybe help with that part, if you like)

Run with this idea. Don't let nay sayers discourage you!
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by Kesslar » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:04 am

I would be very interested on playing in the noobs Riker's cup, I would be willing to help organize it, so if you pm me Sillysir, and let me know more about what you are thinking, I would love to try and help get it together! :)

I agree with kierra though, *you* pick the captains and let them pick the co-captains, maybe we could do something a little different, divide the world into 4 sections, (so we would have 4 captains) and then just match the 4 sections 2 sections to a match and the winning match team play each other. Just an idea, :)

Anyhow, PM me and let me know more and how you want me to help Sillysir :)

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:43 pm

Anyway, I hope you didn't misunderstand, I love the idea and it would be great if it could actually take action, but I'm trying to be realistic and see how this would take action in the first place.
Just others determining who is weak and putting them on the team is a bad idea, I can tell that straight away. I gave it a little thought and didn't find a good idea to tell how someone is not experienced, since that saying itself is extremely subjective.
I am open to hear more ideas on how to execute this, though.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by sillysir » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:59 am

You're right sub, and as I was writing this topic, I realized why this was probably not a popular consideration. It is very subjective...but then again, isn't the most experienced/ skilled players also very subjective?

What about having a tournament? Such as appointing 4 captains and having them select teams. Then at random, team a plays team b, team c plays team d. The winner of those matches play each other and the winner of that moves on to the final match. The losers of those matches play each other and the winner of that plays in the final match. The winner of the final, is of course, the Tournament Winner. This way, it keeps the teams fair, if one team loses the first 'unfair' match, they have the ability to potentially rematch or play another team and win. Unfortunately, this would require 5 matches total (more if ties occur). If this is too much of a problem, it could become a 2-3 day event?
If my description became unclear, for the fun of it, I made a flow chart: http://www.gliffy.com/pubdoc/5094085/L.png

Or we could always go the original way, and just have 4 captains choose teams. I'm not sure how to divide the world up, but perhaps instead of just having the captain's personal opinions choose, we make it a requirement that only one person in a team can play. Teamless(s) :) are also available.

And for the server part, unless we really needed to get new ones, couldn't we simply rename the Riker Cup server and use that?

And yes, we would name the event something different than Riker.....Schoeneman ;)

But those are just my ideas....please dispute.
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by macsforme » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:32 am

SillySir wrote:Or we could always go the original way, and just have 4 captains choose teams. I'm not sure how to divide the world up, but perhaps instead of just having the captain's personal opinions choose, we make it a requirement that only one person in a team can play. Teamless(s) :) are also available.
Please just try not to encourage people to leave their teams to become more eligible for such an event. GU teams are the heart of the league and we don't want to threaten that.

More events are always welcome. I would just recommend that you choose a name without "Riker Cup" in it, to avoid confusion and to avoid drawing the ire of the original event creators.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:32 am

There is no such a thing as the most experienced players either, it's all open. Various teams just invite some players they find suitable and, of course, subjectively good.
I like this circular idea. However, it would still defeat a purpose of having pure inexperienced tank battles.
All in all, I would see the tournament of all the Teamless players take action, that shouldn't be really hard, but the whole system of determining who is less experienced w/o pre-battles would be hard. What you shared are pre-battles (as far as I see) that would indeed more or less show us some results in experience, but at Cups, we should head directly to the tournament, not some pre-elimination battles.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by sillysir » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:26 am

Well I guess the original idea of NOOB cup is kinda not an option. I mean, since we can't have matches and have the loser be the winner, and we can't pick and choose the worst players. But still, the Riker cup, is very selective and not many people get in. Especially with only 2 teams, NA and Euro, twice a year...I think we can say that it would be nice to have another few big matches. And to allow many regular players in the cup and keep it fair, tournaments and pre-elimination battles would help greatly. It would still allow for competition and a bigger variety of players to be a 'star'.

And no, Constitution, that was not my idea. GU Teams are very important. I think if we went that route we would have some other requirements for teamless players to be involved.

But these are just my suggestions. I and others would enjoy a big cup we can be part of, instead of just the big leagues. A tournament is just one idea we can involve many regular players.
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by An SQUERRILz » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:23 am

You honestly think players will feel honoured to be representing a team as their least skilled members?
Actually they probably would. 'Veteran noobs' don't mind it at all. 'Junior noobs' may deny being the least skilled but are still happy to be a part and have the chance to prove themselves (compared to others especially if they think their position on the team is simply honorary).

It's fairly easy to name 20 of the less skilled players without much difficulty or drama. For my match predictor (http://gu.zapto.org/) I basically do have the list of weakest performing yet active US players.

The real issue is selecting players who are active enough to show up to the Cup. I believe the main issue of finding committed players is not so much in their affinity to the 'Noob team' as their affinity to GU activity.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:50 pm

SillySir, as I don't think discussing this part further will bring any profit in the end, let's just leave it with me supporting your idea.
Such a Cup would be excellent, but as we will (if we will) try to execute it, we might see how inaccurate and time-consuming this method truly is.

jadespicy, as I'm not new to BZFlag (quite the opposite, actually), I can safely say that this would not apply for everyone out there. Some veterans indeed might not mind it, but some dislike being inexperienced, and what's more is that they would directly show it this way.
It's fairly easy to name 20 of less skilled players? Well then, let's see a basic example. Since I brought the idea for the example up, how about you tell for me. Would I be suitable for such a Cup, or not? IMHO, it wouldn't be easy to declare someone as inexperienced at all w/o some pre-elimination battles.

The cups are always attended by active players, but in the end, the biggest percentage of those are experienced players.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:40 pm

Why would you just end it? We have only discussed an IDEA. Just quickly ending, being stubborn to debate/suggest/comment and ending up "supporting my idea" isn't helping anything, Sub.

When I mention this idea to players on GU, plenty of them say they love it. In fact, Kierra and Kess, immediately argued with you to promote this idea further. Perhaps you are right, there are some major issues with the plan right now, but its diffidently a popular idea worth discussing.

Right now, we have 1 cup that is played twice a year. This cup is extremely exclusive to "experienced players" and even exclusive to the country the player resides in. And most of the Riker Cup players are just old good players...in which many of them ONLY come play BZflag when they know the Riker Cup is soon. Yes, they are very good players and yes, many other riker cup players are active now....but those are only 20 players. What about the 100 more regular players who never get to participate?

Thus, I think it would be great if the GU had another cup to allow more players to get involved with. Inaccurate? Time-consuming? Please tell me how the original Riker Cup was made then.

I think the original idea of having "noob" players play is diffidently too subjective and embarrassing. Plus, there are few noob players who are active enough to play multiple matches, and actually attend the full amount of time. So, that is why I suggested the tournament.

All we would need to do is choose 4 people in GU who are willing (not hard) and able (admins/referees/team leaders?) to be captains. They would then choose their teams. If necessary, we would make some requirements. Such as in each team, there must be 1 player from another GU team then the captain or 1 player who started GU within 3 years. I'm not sure what they would be or if they need to be there. Once the teams are formed, we would set a date for 2 teams (chosen at random) to match each other. Then the other 2 teams would. And we keep going. Yes, it would require several matches and be much longer than the Riker Cup. But, it would be very entertaining, for everyone, and would allow more GU players to be involved.

So, the original popular idea of a noob cup is not capable of succeeding. But if WE choose to make requirements of the teams, one could be how long the players have played...which would make it more friendly to the 'noob' cup idea.

I would like this to happen. I think this can happen. I know many other people who like the idea. Sure, there are problems. No reason not to compromise, improvise and solve.
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:10 pm

Ending it quickly? Being stubborn?
Excuse me, but if posting on a thread whose suggestion most likely won't take action in the end is considered stubborn by you, then I just don't know what to do. Furthermore, I believe I've already shared all there is to share. Yes, I agree and support your idea, but that's as far as it goes. Anything beyond that is not worth reaching, IMHO. Besides including that the game is already more or less dead, who do you think would be enough trust-worthy to actually participate in such a Cup, since good players wouldn't be able to enter it? Also, it would take more effort to execute it than a normal, open cup, bringing more negativity and less profit. So yeah, I support and like the idea, as you've said many others did as well, but as I've said in previous posts, in all honesty, I think that is where it also ends.

Original Cup? The main difference is that it is open. There is no such an extremely subjective limit as "inexperienced players only" there. Heck, even the so-called "experienced players" would be much easier to find, since testing them out is easier, and many of those are more reliable than some noobs as well.

Again, making it simple, you like the idea, and I like the idea, which I expressed by saying "I support".
The difference is that you want to build on it, but when I try to do the same, I just don't see a worthy path for the result. Thus, I'm overall still more on the "no" side then "yes".
Just don't call me stubborn when I even went and posted here, knowing the low chances of input.

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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:53 pm

Sub wrote:Furthermore, I believe I've already shared all there is to share. Yes, I agree and support your idea, but that's as far as it goes. Anything beyond that is not worth reaching, IMHO.
That is being naive and stubborn. To just individually say thats the end of it. Thats like going to a Court saying that you agree the accused is innocent but ending it there and allowing the accused to be prosecuted. Weird analogy, I know, but thats what its like. You just end it...you give a "yes" and then you just say its over. But its not. Many people like the idea...what else do we need to get it started? We don't need money (besides the servers, which won't be over used anymore than they are now), nor do we need approval by all the BZ players or need licenses or what not. We just need to have people group up, decide the details and start it. If enough people like the idea (which I think they do) then we just need to conclude the details.
Sub wrote:Besides including that the game is already more or less dead, who do you think would be enough trust-worthy to actually participate in such a Cup
Are you "adn"? lol
Yes, BZFlag isn't a popular mainstream game...but it still maintains active players. And the GU League is by far the most popular and active servers in BZFlag (besides mofo and duc really). And when I say 4 teams...this could mean a total of 20 people...not necessarily 40. But, I think we could easily find 40 players regardless. And BZFlag isn't a game where thousands or millions of people play, but hundreds do....and having 50 people watch the cup would be well enough. Its something fun to do that many people can participate in. Its not like we need to go advertise on TV about this to have it worth while...its within the GU community...thats all the publicity we need.
Sub wrote: Original Cup? The main difference is that it is open. There is no such an extremely subjective limit as "inexperienced players only" there. Heck, even the so-called "experienced players" would be much easier to find, since testing them out is easier, and many of those are more reliable than some noobs as well.
As I have said earlier in my posting, the original idea of only having inexperienced players have been erased. I said we would allow a magnitude of people, ranging from new players to experienced players. However, instead of just having 2 teams only in NA and Euro, we have 4 teams from the entire world. It would be less exclusive and allow more players to participate in a fun big official cup.
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Re: Noob Riker Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:04 pm

SillySir wrote:
Sub wrote:Furthermore, I believe I've already shared all there is to share. Yes, I agree and support your idea, but that's as far as it goes. Anything beyond that is not worth reaching, IMHO.
That is being naive and stubborn.
Made me smile. What I shared is being realistic on the matter from past experience, what you are doing is being stubborn.
Wanting and wanting someone to upgrade the idea he/she has said he/she doesn't want, and although there are really low chances that the suggestion will in the end be input, still go on and on, that's what being stubborn means, and that's exactly what you are doing.

All in all, you are just turning offensive against me for no obvious reason over here.
Since that's the case, I guess here is where my part ends. Good-luck on spreading your suggestion, I wish you luck (no sarcasm), just don't go crying how it is other people's fault and how they gave in way too early if this doesn't get included. If it does get included, however, then that's great, would love to see a simple and efficient system for it. That is if you can think of one.

I've wrote a short round-up and sent it to you via the PM.

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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:24 pm

Did not mean to turn offensive to Sub. But you are only giving criticism....give me CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. WHY won't it work out.


What do the gu admins think about this idea? Constitution, you didn't really say if you liked it or not.
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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:30 pm

I've sent you a PM, but allow me to post it here as well:

"I simply do not see a smooth and efficient way we could take in order to achieve the ending result. Your idea is basically displaying an ending result, to which I agree, but how will you get to it?
Not one single good suggestion on that crucial part was made yet, and if there won't be one, I'm on a hiatus from the thread. As I've said, I do not have one myself, since it is an extremely subjective matter, and I'm not good at those if it comes down to tournaments of various sorts."


You've just said for me to tell you "why" won't it work.
Why won't what work? You just gave the ending vision, give me a path to it and I'll say if it might work or not and if I agree with it or not. As I've said, I cannot find one efficient myself.

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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:52 pm

What do you mean by a path? You said you cannot find one efficient. So, what is it that you are visioning and why won't that work?

You are acting like there needs to be a step by step manual and huge process for this to be done. It requires a bit of organization and a few more details, but its not like we need to have everything created, organized and proceeded as quickly as possible or repeat instructions.
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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:24 pm

SillySir wrote:It requires a bit of organization and a few more details, but its not like we need to have everything created, organized and proceeded as quickly as possible or repeat instructions.
Exactly. Now, share those "few more details".
However, note that you have to keep it so the newbies will understand it and keep up with it, not something totally complex. In other words, simple and smooth. Got that sort of a system that would imply for inexperienced players only?
If you do have such a system on your mind, then we have already won. If not, then this is the issue I've been speaking of.

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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by Snake12534 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:01 pm

I would like to argue this.

The New Tournament Cup sounds like a great idea, and of course, the GU League needs more special events like these to maintain, or hopefully boost the activity of GU. Meaning, any event would be very useful to the GU League. Well done toward SillySir.

However, agreeing with Sub, this could be a challenge to execute this efficiently. It would be hard to make a system that chooses the less skilled players in the league. Arguing jadespicy, I believe the ELO system is not accurate enough to specifically choose an individual player since it only rates the players in BZBG servers.

In the end, I would like to say that a few changes should be made to this special event in order to make this more executable, or more likely to be done with efficiency.

What the changes will be made, I can't think of, it is your decision to either make this event more executable. I will comment more on this subject once I do come up with some compromising changes to make this event happen.
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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by slime » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:25 pm

If I may make a suggestion:

Create a webpage that is strictly for this cup. Have a registration page where whoever wants to play in it can register themselves. When the registration deadline is reached, randomly assign all players to four teams (more or less depending on how many players register). You will have teams that are a mix of experienced and inexperienced players, and anyone who wants to play is able to.

Also, the more you argue about trivial matters, the less this idea will be taken seriously.

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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by kierra » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:35 am

Slime is right, sillysir.
Run with your idea.
You won't get consensus from the players....too many cooks spoil the brew. Everyone has an opinion on how to do it.

Rikers was started by 2 gu players with the idea.
Chesval started by 2 duc players with the idea.
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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by Kesslar » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:33 am

I completely agree with slime, don't argue over this guys, it's just a game, and games are for FUN :)

Sub, I see what you are trying to say, you love the idea, but you aren't sure it will work based on the fact that you don't think there are enough players that would be dedicated to this as well as the fact that you don't quite see how we would come up with an efficient system for this. But repeatedly saying how you don't think it isn't going to work, think and try to come up with ways *to* MAKE it work, instead of just saying over and over again why it won't work.

Sillysir, I think this can work, and I want to help, here is what I was think:
have the players register (as slime said) and at the end of the deadline, select your 4 captains, and then let them pick their teams in this order *captain 1* picks one player *captain 2* picks one player *captain 3* picks one player *Captain 4* picks 2 players, then back to *captain 3* he/she picks one player, then *captain 2*, one player, and back down to the first captain. The second time the SECOND Captain picks he picks two player and then goes back to the second captain and he picks one player and so on. Now, I know this could be a long process, picking teams, so maybe you could just simply decide the teams yourself or something like that. BTW I liked how you thought the teams could match sillysir, it's a good idea of how to do it, yes it will take longer, but a good system non the less :)

The last thing I would like to say to this is, the way people could look at this is, this torny is for people who would like to play in the Rikers, not a "noob" torny this is just the under players, that doesn't mean you are bad at this game, it just means that some players who have been playing for years are better, and someday if you work and practice enough, you will be playing with the pros too :) Look at Sillysir, he isn't good enough to make it to the Rikers matches...but he is still a pretty good player or Beacon grease or Araquiel, Araquiel is good, but I don't think he is in the Rikers...are you? lol anyhow my point is, even good players don't make it to the Rikers, so don't feel bad that you are asked to play in the "under matches" :)

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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by sillysir » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:51 am

Good ideas.

I think I will go ahead and make a website. Not sure how to host one...so I'll just use one of those popular freebie :)

Having players register would be very easy and efficient. And I think when it comes to picking teams...we can either 1) have a draft, 1 player chosen at a time kinda deal, or 2) we randomly mix them up and perhaps use a GU Match Predictor or ELO to keep it fair. The draft would be a bit more time consuming and tedious, but guaranteed fair.

And like I am trying to clear up....this tournament is for regular players. Not necessarily only noobs or only pros. The ORIGINAL idea was for a noob cup...but that is too exclusive. This tournament would simply be ANOTHER event rather than the Riker Cup. It would simply allow more players who usually aren't part of the Riker to be part of something.

Anyway, I'll work on a website and hopefully then, the idea will be more clear and perhaps started.
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Re: New Tournament Cup

Post by dang dizzy white » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:49 am

Kesslar, did think of it, but it is not rocket science to find out that there is no simple way around, and the profit isn't something too huge.
I'm being realistic on the matter. I repeated myself many times because the OP required me to do so.
You can be optimistic if you want, but I prefer result.

Allow me to say a little something JeffM or joevano would say. BZFlag is an Open Source project. If you want to contribute and add something, go ahead, you might even get ranked up on the forums. However, don't expect too much from others. Although sharing ideas is good, there is no center coder on this site for all of them. Work on it, and once you'll have a piece done, others might consider joining in.

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