Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia?????

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Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia?????

Post by button » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:42 pm

I’ll make this short and simple.
The purpose of this post is to help avoid/solve conflicts before the next Riker’s Cup, so everything can run smoothly.
Riker’s Cup has always been an event between Europe and North America, no exceptions.
However, this Riker’s Winter Cup there was an exception. A player from Asia was chosen to play for Europe! There were messages sent to the admin channel but were disregarded and no action was taken.
Given that this happened.....How can we say this was a valid Riker’s Cup?

This change raises many questions that could turn into conflicts for the next upcoming Riker’s. Examples: If a player from Asia can participate, why can’t the players from Australia, New Zealand, etc. be eligible to play? Would they represent NA or Europe?
The list could go on for pages. I think the topic needs to be brought to the surface of the league and figured out by the next Riker’s.
Last edited by button on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:36 pm

I totally agree. And its not like there weren't other options. There are and were plenty of true europeans available. The cup is about regional competition not world wide...like the silly cup ;) Europe shouldnt have taken the better player but the player in europe.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by allejo » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:14 am

I can guarantee you that you will not receive an official statement from the GU Council because first, they will not admit that there was something wrong and second there will not be a consensus reached. This has been brought up in the admin forums and has only been ignored by the other admins similarly to how the admins ignored you and other players when you complained; this issue was brought up before Riker's even occurred only to be ignored or briefly discussed. Tradition is only brought up as a complaint because for the Summer Riker's, everyone organizing the cup refused to give up on tradition of having one admin captain and player co-captain and Riker's was even delayed in order to accommodate players' schedules to follow the tradition. But this time around, tradition was easily thrown out the window and if there is an official statement, it will be along the lines that when the admins learned of this incident it would be too late to enforce tradition and would affect the team if a player was forbidden from playing even though they could have easily delayed the Riker's match just like in the summer.

Simply put, GU Council will not admit fault for this incident even though individual admins can admit this was a mistake, i.e. me.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by button » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:14 am

Couldn't agree with you more, allejo.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by brad » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:57 am

Fine Europe forfeits, another win for US, Roo won't play again.

I'll take the blame!

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by button » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:25 am

Oh shush Bradley! Regardless, we coming for you in Chestval though >:)

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by brad » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:42 am

It was fun as always, and it got a lot of players active again as well as a huge observer turnout. Isn't that what matters?

Sure we all try to win, but it's not like there's money on the line here.....

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Kenshin » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:41 pm

The reason it doesn't include australians or people from new zealand is because of the lag. No one playing cared at all that roo isn't from europe because his lag isn't a problem. When you play someone who lags over 220, you generally need to hunt them, which you can't do in rikers as you're already hunting a lot of other people. Roo is close enough to Europe that him playing for the Europeans is fine. I don't think this is or should be made a big deal

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:06 pm

That's fantastic that it's okay to bend a couple of rules just to accommodate someone close enough that doesn't lag to be too much of a concern this time around. One would hate the thought of making BZ global, is that what your saying?

For the record there have been a number of protests about it, only difficulty is they won't come out and openly say so for fear of reprisals. And let's face it is that sort of aggravation worth it?

So here direct from rikercup.org are the outline rules:
Q: What is the Riker Cup?
A: The Riker Cup is a friendly competition between the two major continents where BZFlag players originate; North America and Europe. It is a "best of 3" 10vs10 GU-League style funmatch where the best of the best from each region duke it out for the most valued prize of all: honor. Two captains from each team (one from the administrative team, and one regular player) will decide who plays in each of the matches. Other than a few small things, the rules are exactly the same.
Two rules were bent, not one.
When people take the place of others whom have earned the right to play by their skill level and meet the rules why shouldn't they play?
Last edited by Frank The Tank on Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by An SQUERRILz » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:18 pm

Kenshin wrote:The reason it doesn't include australians or people from new zealand is because of the lag.
Then how was Janis allowed to play a full game with 350 lag + PL?

There have been players who've played for both sides (they lived in the corresponding region at the time of Riker?), implying allegiances are subject to preference of both the captains and the players.

Isn't it conceivable that an NA living in EU could play for NA? What about an EU living in Asia? Perhaps like in international sports the only thing that matters is who you end up signing for (by both you and the respective captain agreeing to it). It's about who you represent. Roo was playing for EU not for Asia.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Kenshin » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:48 pm

Doink essentially thought up the idea of Rikers with the intent that best players on each side of the Atlantic would play each other. The whole point is for the best players to face off and to have fun. The idea of Europe vs NA fits because people outside of those areas generally lag. I really don't think this is a big deal and as far as I know everyone playing had no problem with it. As you highlighted, frank, its a fm where the best of the best face off (which is what makes the whole event an attraction and not just another fm) and roo was the best available player for that side making it a more fun event for everyone playing. This whole fixation on an unimportant rule takes away from what is supposed to be a fun event that is focused on bringing people to the game.

Jade, who has played for both Europe and NA? And as for Janis' lag, I have no recollection of that. It's possible I wasn't there, but I can't imagine there were no complaints from players for Janis to leave the match.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:59 pm

jadespicy wrote: Isn't it conceivable that an NA living in EU could play for NA? What about an EU living in Asia? Perhaps like in international sports the only thing that matters is who you end up signing for (by both you and the respective captain agreeing to it). It's about who you represent. Roo was playing for EU not for Asia.
While it is conceivable all that you say in the above statement, that is not how Riker Cup was set up and played since '07. Traditionally, it has been the best of NA vs the best of Europe. Not the best of NA vs best of Europe/asia nor best of NA vs best of Eurasia. This is not run like sports where you have the option of a draft pick from another continent (Nothing personal against roo....i like the kid.)

Unfortunately it happened and brad, the man, came forward to take the hit. You have my respect, brad!

I think what button is trying to accomplish with his post, is clarification of the rules and what this means for future Rikers.
-Does this Riker Cup set a precedent?
Can we hope for a reorganization of Riker rules:
- to incorporate the concept of 2 players as capt & co capt instead of the necessity of a gu admin capt. NA gu admins can help choose the players for capt & co, ditto for the euro gu admins to choose their capt & co from euro players - Or however we finally designate geographic teams.

Unfortunately guys/gals, don't hold your breath for any change any time soon.....the wheels of progress turn slowly.....if they progress at all.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Asmeouuus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:08 pm

Well guys, I'm tired of all the discussions. Let me set it straight right now.

I admit, it was ultimately my mistake. I asked one of the US Rikers captains for permission to let Roo (HEISENBERG) play for the European team in Rikers, and he said it was ok. He didn't know it was illegal to allow him to play. I didn't find out until AFTER Rikers was over that he wasn't allowed to play. Sorry, again, it was an honest mistake, but now we can all refresh ourselves on the rules.
Last edited by Asmeouuus on Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by dang dizzy white » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:12 pm

Don't mess with Asians. Just, don't.
"The best of Asia" would solo this.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:25 pm

Thank you, asme, for clarifying how this came about....it's refeshing to have open communication.
brad, you're more than awesome!

asme, asme asme.....this isn't arguing.
It's a discussion and it raises some valid points that need to be addressed for future Rikers......AND should be the perfect segue to taking an honest look at Rikers: it's set up, rules, etc, etc, etc.
kierra wrote:I think what button is trying to accomplish with his post, is clarification of the rules and what this means for future Rikers.
-Does this Riker Cup set a precedent?
Can we hope for a reorganization of Riker rules:
- to incorporate the concept of 2 players as capt & co capt instead of the necessity of a gu admin capt. NA gu admins can help choose the players for capt & co, ditto for the euro gu admins to choose their capt & co from euro players - Or however we finally designate geographic teams.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by morning glory » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:22 am

Perhaps I'm simply being naive, but I'm not sure that this subject would be such a wellspring of debate had we won. Geographically, Lebanon is much closer to Europe than, say, Australia (no offense intended), and this manifests itself in Epic Rooster essentially operating on a "European schedule" (Lebanon is +2 UTC). I understand the frustration, but, as far as I know, nobody on our team had a problem with it, and it seems to me that, that being the case, we're making a mountain out of a molehill. Quite honestly, it sounds like a pretext for the fact that we didn't win.

Edit: I'm aware my post won't exactly be popular :?.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:36 am

The past is the past, I don't suggest anything like erasing this cup from history. But I would diffidently suggest, as kierra mentioned, re-looking at the actual rules of Rikers. You're right, mg, it wasn't a big problem with Roo specifically and it would be a different topic if one of the teams won. However, we need to look as in the future, will Roo and players like him always be granted to the Europe team? If so, where do we say the line is? Do we say people in +3 UTC are excluded or what?

I think the initial traditions of EU vs NA became because the majority of active and skilled gu players are from those regions. So its just a matter of fact of sticking with tradition or extending the regions?

We must also say, if for some reason a player in a place like South Africa or Cuba, would become active/skilled, would this player be granted to the NA team? And for that matter, why not Africa players go to EU? I know the likelihood of players springing from those areas are low, but my point is, the rules are unclear for such possibilities. (I don't actually know if there are any players from other regions like Africa or not...so excuse me)
silly :P

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:45 am

It's not about who won or didn't win, for example do you think those in Australia or New Zealand care who won?
Rikers' as one old pro said to me was the
GU highlight of his year
, the pinnacle when players who had earned the right with skill did some amazing things.
Did NA play the best 10 players available or was it 9 + 1 privileged for all 3 matches?
to incorporate the concept of 2 players as capt & co capt instead of the necessity of a gu admin capt. NA gu admins can help choose the players for capt & co, ditto for the euro gu admins to choose their capt & co from euro players -
Absolutely brilliant idea, should be adopted from here on out.
Only those that have earned the right through the eyes of their peers get to play not those whom have privileges and abused that right, they have taken away from others whom have earned it, were available and should have been playing.

Perhaps we should have another rule for those that only turn up for rikers then disappear? Is there a consensus for selection by having a certain level of activity over the preceding 6 months, thus eliminating those whom only turn up for this event?

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by macsforme » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:54 am

Frank the Tank wrote: When people take the place of others whom have earned the right to play by their skill level and meet the rules why shouldn't they play?
Skill level will always be an inherently subjective issue, so if a captain selects his team based on his evaluation of each player's skill, and that evaluation does not agree with your own, that is not bending the rules… that is simply a judgement call that you disagree with.

Changes to the rules can be beneficial, but I haven't seen an argument for why the rule on captains should be changed. I anticipate equally compelling arguments on both sides of this issue. Any proposal should clearly state what the actual objective is.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:21 am

Skill level will always be an inherently subjective issue, so if a captain selects his team based on his evaluation of each player's skill, and that evaluation does not agree with your own, that is not bending the rules… that is simply a judgement call that you disagree with.
So your suggesting the 10th best player available for NA was a gu admin? Because that's wasn't my opinion but opinion of many. So some of us are a little lost when this rule isn't applied,
best of the best
you can manipulate this if your the Captain, who knew?
but I haven't seen an argument for why the rule on captains should be changed
What are you reading, there have been some very productive ideas how to progress forward. GU Council is here for the purposes to manage not to dictate. If players wish to promote the idea to have Captains outside GU admins why can't they, If there is a consensus for it why not change? This is after all the players League.

Thought a forum was for the purpose to promote new ideas, discuss, not to have to warrant an argument. You see a problem fix it, don't hang around saying the original idea still stands because we chiseled it in stone from the get go. Move forward, it's how man got to the moon.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by macsforme » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:35 am

Frank The Tank wrote:
Skill level will always be an inherently subjective issue, so if a captain selects his team based on his evaluation of each player's skill, and that evaluation does not agree with your own, that is not bending the rules… that is simply a judgement call that you disagree with.
So your suggesting the 10th best player available for NA was a gu admin? Because that's wasn't my opinion but opinion of many. So some of us are a little lost when this rule isn't applied,
best of the best
you can manipulate this if your the Captain, who knew?
Okay, if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that if the admin captain is not in the top tier of players, he should not play? And what if none of the admins on one side of the ocean or the other make that threshold… the admin captain should never play?

I agree that admins are not always the best players, but I generally think it is a captain's prerogative to play if he wants to, or else what is the point of investing all that time and energy? However, admin captains (including me) have given up a spot during one or more of the three matches to other players when it was thought to benefit the team. To exclude a captain from playing completely seems cruel to me, though.
Frank the Tank wrote:
but I haven't seen an argument for why the rule on captains should be changed
What are you reading, there have been some very productive ideas how to progress forward. GU Council is here for the purposes to manage not to dictate. If players wish to promote the idea to have Captains outside GU admins why can't they, If there is a consensus for it why not change? This is after all the players League.

Thought a forum was for the purpose to promote new ideas, discuss, not to have to warrant an argument. You see a problem fix it, don't hang around saying the original idea still stands because we chiseled it in stone from the get go. Move forward, it's how man got to the moon.
I never said there have been no productive ideas put forward by the community, nor that procedures should never change. There have been several examples of positive changes after community discussion, including 20-minute matches and uneven team matches. From what I have seen, the GU admins participate in these discussions with their frank opinions just like any other players. We don't "dictate" league procedures unilaterally. Nor did I overtly reject the idea of a change to how captains work for Riker's. What I pointed out was that I hadn't seen any specific reasons for why it should be changed… i.e., what is wrong with the current system, and how is it broken?

I would anticipate that the specific reasons given by most would be the unavailability of a GU admin captain or the lack of qualified candidate (i.e., a lack of skill). Okay… I have never seen a Riker cup without at least one admin on both teams playing… and usually there are several. Yes, there is some behind the scenes work involved, but it isn't a significant time commitment. So, if an admin can play, why can't he be available for captain? As for admin's lack of skill… okay… admins are not always the best players, but there are compelling reasons for having an admin involved in the organization. For one, admins are often more familiar with the rules and procedures of an event, and can share that knowledge with the co-captain and other teammates. Additionally, having an admin and lay player work together promotes collaboration and trust between the admin team and general player population in a way that isn't typically seen.

Change can be good, but unless the reasons behind the change overwhelm the reasons for keeping the status quo, there may be greater benefit in keeping what we already have.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:18 pm

best vs best

either it is best vs best or it isn't best vs best make up your mind.

The fundamental concept of rikers is Euro vs NA and best vs best

Non qualifying players from countries outside these zones are envious but we do understand the greater pool of players come from both these regions, hence why there are a greater number of servers in these regions. I can't speak for others beyond these continenets, but I'm quite happy to see the zones remain as they are, it's the GU pinnacle event. Players outside those zones would only be mercenaries as there really is no affiliation to either continent, so who would choose to be in which continent? Too hard and too subjective.

But as for best, the word on it's own should be enough to realise 'Houston we have a problem' when GU Council have adopted a Catch 22 rule whereby the Captain has to be a GU admin, now your saying that Captain has the right to play not because he/she is the best but because they are a GU Admin. That's against the spirit of Rikers when they are not the best.

A solution has been offered
to incorporate the concept of 2 players as capt & co capt instead of the necessity of a gu admin capt. NA gu admins can help choose the players for capt & co, ditto for the euro gu admins to choose their capt & co from euro players
-

What always amuses me when the posting comes out as to who will be Captain co-captain each and every 6 months is the delay in finding a GU Admin Captain for one or the other team. Inevitably there is a blank spot. This year it was Euros. The previous occasion become a debacle while GU Council shifted some deck chairs around and postponed the date.

What happened in the summer of 2011 rikerscup?
No event recorded, why?


What is equally cruel is a bunch of players in obs that are not permitted to play and not by being the best available but because they lack the privilege to do so.

Would suggest to you consti this argument has come benign and motion you discuss the concept in council of change, select either best or tell us you'll stay with status quo no amount of words will change the fact the policy has to be adopted in it's entirety by GU council, either the best vs the best or GU Admin as captain.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Yrogirg » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:10 pm

Until I saw the thread I thought that Riker's is "The Best of the West vs. the Best of the Rest". Anyway, I'm glad that Riker's Cup is still being held. Though I forgot about it once again :-/

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:49 pm

http://rikercup.org
What is the Riker Cup?

 The Riker Cup is a friendly competition between the two major continents where BZFlag players originate; North America and Europe. It is a "best of 3" 10vs10 GU-League style funmatch where the best of the best from each region duke it out for the most valued prize of all: honor. Two captains from each team (one from the administrative team, and one regular player) will decide who plays in each of the matches. Other than a few small things, the rules are exactly the same.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by JeffM » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:55 pm

Technically what you have is an invitational, not an open tournament, and that is probably what is confusing some people.

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