Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia?????

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:01 pm

We keep referring to the rikercup.org website, but is this the actual original and official page of the Riker's? As far as I know, rikercup.org was created by and is managed by tw1sted, who I believe is not part of the GU Council. And I am also assuming that the GU Council is the one to officially address how the cup is operated, right? So, then why are we acting as if this website represents the original and official rulings of the cup? I'm sure there was a post or discussion somewhere else when the idea was originally announced.

Also, on the website under the FAQ of "What is the Riker Cup" it says "Other than a few small things, the rules are exactly the same.".... What are those few small things?? Is there another post/documentation that stats what those changes are?

Maybe this is why there has been so much debate and confusion of this...there is not a clear/publicized documentation that shows everything about the Rikers.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:01 pm

sillysir wrote:there is not a clear/publicized documentation that shows everything about the Rikers.
Over the years the GU admins have consistently refused to create detailed written rules covering every possible situation, despite repeated requests for such from a few players. I do not expect any change in that position even in light of recent events.

I can only suggest that you start a new league dedicated to its rulebook if that is important to you.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:28 pm

Bullet Catcher wrote: Over the years the GU admins have consistently refused to create detailed written rules covering every possible situation, despite repeated requests for such from a few players. I do not expect any change in that position even in light of recent events.

I can only suggest that you start a new league dedicated to its rulebook if that is important to you.
I do not understand. Frank was just arguing about the point of this forum and the reasoning behind change. Yet, no one is really saying anything and everyone is kinda just denying due to past examples. You say admins have consistently refused...but why? Is it wrong for me or others to bring up the subject again and perhaps alter the decision or come up with a new possibility?

All the admins have obviously put a lot of work and dedication to repeatedly and consistently appoint captains and bring the gu league together for such a great and organized cup. So now the cup is finished, it was a great time and overall a good event. But a few of us have questions as to the specifics of how the cup should operate and we have some potential ideas to improve the cup...so why stop working and deny further accomplishments?

You guys also mention that changes and implementations...no matter how small they are...will take a long time to be approved or discussed. But you realize, its only YOU who slows the process down. For everyone who delays the discussion or mentions time is an issue, is the person who actually slows development. I mean its not like we are re-coding BZFlag, no instead we are simply trying to clear up rules and suggest new alterations, and to make a change for this event would only require one small discussion between the council.
JeffM wrote:Technically what you have is an invitational, not an open tournament, and that is probably what is confusing some people.
Btw, good point to make. This event is kinda unique in that sense. But I think it would be nice to evaluate who could be "invited".
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by FiringSquad » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:47 am

As Admins, we do the best we can to keep the league fun for all.
Frankly there are always complaints about every decision and non-decision we make.
It seems that in this case though, we may have underestimated the depth of feeling there was for sticking to a rigid format of excluding players outside of Europe and the U.S.

You need to realise though that gathering enough players that can play at a specific time is not a trivial task and without recruiting more players, it's going to be even more difficult in future.
In the light of this it's easy to see how shortcuts could be taken in order to ensure Riker's actually went ahead.

That being said, this was a small blot on what appears to have been a very enjoyable competition. We are here to serve the players, so if you want strictly European and U.S. players to participate, then that's what we will do.
In the meantime, do what you can to recruit new players to the league, so that arranging this will be simpler in future.
Bullet Catcher wrote:Over the years the GU admins have consistently refused to create detailed written rules covering every possible situation, despite repeated requests for such from a few players. I do not expect any change in that position even in light of recent events.
Expecting rigid precise rules to cover every situation is not possible without devoting a lot of time to the task, involving constant revision and notification of updates. Loopholes are inevitable. Loopholes are bad, since troublesome players will always work to take advantage of them. It's better that we have a good set of rules that define the spirit of what's required and let an admin decide if someone is within them. Non-troublesome players do not have an issue with this as they stay within the rules without even thinking about it. If you have to worry about whether you're breaking a rule then you are too close to the edge and I'd advise you to step back from the precipice. Whatever it is your doing is likely to be detrimental to the League.

A simple example. North America Vs Europe
What about Canada? Mexico? Hawaii? Guantanamo Bay? What if a player plays from a U.S. army base or consulate?
And this is really a simple example. Try defining what's considered unacceptable public messages and you might get a flavour of how impossible the task is to define precisely.
Are you sure you can word the rules in a way that can cover all loopholes?
Will it be something players can read and understand, especially players who's first language is not English?
Will it be short enough to ensure people will actually take the time to read them?

If you are willing to provide clearer wording for any of the rules, you can be sure it will be adopted. Clearer rules means less work for admins.
Just make sure the wording is an improvement on what we already have.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by slime » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:23 pm

FiringSquad wrote:A simple example. North America Vs Europe
What about Canada? Mexico? Hawaii? Guantanamo Bay? What if a player plays from a U.S. army base or consulate?
You do realize that Canada and Mexico are two of the three major countries that make up North America? And Hawaii is a state of the United States...
FiringSquad wrote:If you are willing to provide clearer wording for any of the rules, you can be sure it will be adopted. Clearer rules means less work for admins.
Just make sure the wording is an improvement on what we already have.
Perhaps the reason players have taken such issue to this is because the GU Council has skated around the issue and not actually done anything about it. Why is the GU Council in existence in the first place if they just ask other people to complete the work? Just based on this thread, there is obviously a need for further clarification on who can play in the Riker Cup. So give further clarification. There is absolutely no reason why the GU Council cannot come out with an official statement about who is eligible to play in the Riker Cup.

Who is eligible to participate in the Riker Cup?
Any player who is in the geographic regions of North America and Europe is eligible to participate in the Riker Cup. If there is an issue regarding whether a certain player may participate, decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis and require the consensus of the captains on both teams.


There, I provided clearer wording for that rule. Now I can be sure it will be adopted, and you guys didn't have to do the work.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Bullet Catcher » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:43 pm

slime wrote:Any player who is in the geographic regions of North America and Europe is eligible to participate in the Riker Cup.
When you say "geographic regions" are you referring to physical geography or cultural geography? I am not making up that distinction, and this is a nice example of how difficult it is to write rules that will be interpreted as intended.

In physical geography, the North American tectonic plate includes Mexico, Canada, Greenland, and eastern Siberia. The Eurasian plate spans from Portugal to China (ref: Wikipedia).

Cultural distinctions are less precise, but this World Cultural Regions Map is probably more consistent with how most BZFlag players think of Europe and North America.

This sort of clarification:
slime wrote:If there is an issue regarding whether a certain player may participate, decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis and require the consensus of the captains on both teams.
would be helpful, but I don't know whether we want to grant team captains the power to, say, let a banned player participate. (It's hard to write good rules!)

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by slime » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:34 pm

And when I say "participate", does that include observers as well, because they are technically "participating" in the Riker Cup? And then I look at the GU Rules page, and one of the bans states, "Using cheats in the GU league (1 year to life)" for a ban penalty. So coding, distributing, and teaching others how to use cheats in the league is completely legal?

As has been discussed, the GU Council has been consistent with not writing out every possible interpretation of every possible rule. So why start with this? The Riker Cup brings about 60 people total to participate in it. With the vast majority of players, it is clear which team they belong to. There doesn't need to be a distinction between physical geography or cultural geography, but if the Council wants to add that distinction, be my guest. But that's also the whole point of the "if there is an issue regarding whether a certain player may participate, decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis and require the consensus of the captains on both teams" line. The whole idea is to establish a guideline.

Also, why would banned players be eligible to participate...? They are banned.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by An SQUERRILz » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:05 am

Let's use the following excerpt as a cross-section:
FiringSquad wrote:As Admins, we do the best we can to keep the league fun for all.
Bullet Catcher wrote:Over the years the GU admins have consistently refused to create detailed written rules covering every possible situation, despite repeated requests for such from a few players. I do not expect any change in that position even in light of recent events.
Expecting rigid precise rules to cover every situation is not possible without devoting a lot of time to the task, involving constant revision and notification of updates. Loopholes are inevitable. Loopholes are bad, since troublesome players will always work to take advantage of them. It's better that we have a good set of rules that define the spirit of what's required and let an admin decide if someone is within them. Non-troublesome players do not have an issue with this as they stay within the rules without even thinking about it. If you have to worry about whether you're breaking a rule then you are too close to the edge and I'd advise you to step back from the precipice. Whatever it is your doing is likely to be detrimental to the League.

Are you sure you can word the rules in a way that can cover all loopholes?

If you are willing to provide clearer wording for any of the rules, you can be sure it will be adopted. Clearer rules means less work for admins.
Just make sure the wording is an improvement on what we already have.
Firstly this response to Sillysir's query about an official Riker website with detailed rules.
Bullet Catcher wrote:Over the years the GU admins have consistently refused to create detailed written rules covering every possible situation, despite repeated requests for such from a few players. I do not expect any change in that position even in light of recent events.
OK, so there doesn't happen to be an official website with rules covering every situation.
OK, so it makes sense because much of the Cup attitude is down to the players and word of mouth. The loosely defined rules + attitude have sufficed.

Now FS comes in and says:
FiringSquad wrote:Expecting rigid precise rules to cover every situation is not possible without devoting a lot of time to the task, involving constant revision and notification of updates. Loopholes are inevitable. Loopholes are bad, since troublesome players will always work to take advantage of them. It's better that we have a good set of rules that define the spirit of what's required and let an admin decide if someone is within them.
OK, we've established that no set of rules will remove all ambiguity and have no loopholes.
FiringSquad wrote: Non-troublesome players do not have an issue with this as they stay within the rules without even thinking about it. If you have to worry about whether you're breaking a rule then you are too close to the edge and I'd advise you to step back from the precipice. Whatever it is your doing is likely to be detrimental to the League.
But wait now he feels the need to say that anyone who asks for rules in any form more well defined than a "spirit" is a troublesome player.

That also ignores the fact that
let an admin decide if someone is within them
is what this discussion is all about. We're asking for a verdict, not for a time travel machine. But it was pointed out earlier there might not be a verdict, ever.
The point of a "spirit" is that you can feel whether something fits in or not. But instead it's like no one knows what the spirit is.
Frankly there are always complaints about every decision and non-decision we make.
If you were doing a good job there would still be complaints but the complainers would respect the word from the council. They don't and there's a good reason for that. The point of an authority is that they can make the final decision even in borderline cases. The council members not having a unanimous vote in borderline cases does not mean that they should ignore an issue. The fact that that happens may suggest that you feel the issues raised by players are less important than "protecting the council from criticism and change".

If hypothetically someone were to ask me why I suppose the council doesn't like to clarify rules, this would be my most plausible theory yet:
An SQUERRILz wrote:Consistency goes against what the Council are able to accomplish as a group. Overall they have the coherency of an indecisive 10 year old. They are an elite bunch who protect each other as they individually make hypocritical and personal judgment calls.

See, if they clarified the rules they would start to violate them in plain sight. It also reduces their power to do whatever they want.

The Council frequently have to make subjective decisions. The problem is not that the issues and decisions are subjective, the problem is that the Council is an inhumane monstrous player-crunching demon that cannot know fault so when a judgment or clarification has to be made it is not as well received as it would be from a dictator who has the players best interests at heart and openly admits to and corrects mistakes made in the past.

The Council is as vengeful as a democracy, as impulsive as its masters, and selfish. And that is why if you want a simple rule clarification you will upset the beast that shall claim a clarification as neither necessary nor appropriate.
Expecting rigid precise rules to cover every situation is not possible
Admins often default to this passive-aggressive tone when someone makes a constructive criticism or suggestion:
< Hey admin when did this rule get decided? I can't find it on the GU rules page.
> OH you don't know this rule that was decided TWO years ago that EVERYONE voted on and knows about that is CLEARLY available on the 2nd page of the GU League Discussion on the BZBB forums and is part of the Official GU Rules? How can it possibly be clearer than that? You want us to make a rule page that covers every possible eventuality?
< No but why can't you put it on the GU rules page?

As you can see, every query or criticism falls under three scenarios:
1) The player is a lazy idiot
2) The player is a troublemaker obviously enquiring about rules so they can break them
3) No we're not going to write a set of entirely unambiguous rules that cover every possible scenario because that's not possible.

Back to base:
FiringSquad wrote:If you are willing to provide clearer wording for any of the rules, you can be sure it will be adopted.
The last past completes the lie.
FiringSquad wrote:Are you sure you can word the rules in a way that can cover all loopholes?
We know it is a lie because he just told us it wasn't possible. Among the well known indecision in the past.
Just make sure the wording is an improvement on what we already have.
translates to

Code: Select all

Sure give me a perfect set of rules that covers every scenario and will never be misinterpreted and we'll vote on whether to accept it but of course it won't be accepted because it would be verbose and the Council would probably still reach the verdict that detailing the "spirit" of the rules is as good as anything.
or in a more chivalrous dialect
Mate, don't bother. Nothing's gonna change.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:20 am

Riker Cup site history: Rikercup.org is the Riker Cup website. It was put up and hosted by tw1sted. He designed it initially and has hosted it ever since. He made sure to pass the rules and FAQs through the admins at the time before he published the site. Dex had access to the server so he updated the site for a while when tw1sted took a hiatus from bz.

Gu council is made up of 8 ruling admins, brad, constitution, FS, NTH, sn0w_m0nkey, T-roy, zelgadis and myself. It's a diverse group on many levels and a good size group when it comes to getting consensus on issues, new ideas, rule change, etc.

I understand the frustration of players when it takes so long to get a decision from us admins. Part of the problem is that there is no designated head in gu admins. When qd, one of the 3 creators of the league, was active, whether he acknowledged it or not, qd was the accepted head of gu admins. Since he resigned from active gu admin duty, there has been no designated leader. Decisions are made by 'consensus'.....and being a diverse group, we don't always agree on issues, matters of change, etc.....hence, issues die on the table way too often. It is my biggest frustration, as well.

Understand that what you see written in this thread by FS, BC, myself or any other admin, is our personal take/opinion/perception of the issue as gu admin.

In times past on admin forum, there has been discussion about rules, fine tuning them, being more explicit, etc etc etc. But the truth of the matter is, no matter how detailed rules become there still would be that element in bz that would look to exploit something. Do you really want a rigid set of rules defining every single move you make?
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:30 pm

lol. Well said spicy. ;) Voted up! :P

Before we go on to talk more, I would like to say in no way do I (and I believe majority of the gu players) wish to offend any player including any admin. I hope that everyone can keep this civil and avoid personal attacks. And for admins, I hope you don't punish us in anyway.

Unfortunately kierra, what you just said emphasized on everything spicy wrote and made your case for the council that much harder.

I for one like to debate friendly and discuss in depth, despite if a good/proper result is possible. Thus, I will go on to say the council needs to be changed.

I mean kierra just said there is no "leader" and all decisions are made through a consensus. Which seems fair, reasonable and accurate to me. However, the problem is the council is ignoring the fact they are able to create a consensus. The council is made of 8, which is even and probably makes things a bit hard, but its possible to discuss a topic and vote upon it, right? And as far as I know, a democracy approach to a situation such as this is usually a good one. Thus, the decision will be made final based on the majority of votes. Usually it would be easier to represent topics, issues, and decisions with a leader, but its still possible to progress without one. So why do you admins keep acting like its impossible to discuss and decide upon topics and new issues, such as this?
Well the answer to this has been repeated and echoed through many of the previous posts, even through admins trying to avoid it.

If the Council is unable to choose a leader, unable to make decisions and unable to represent clear discussions or progress, then it is useless.

And if its useless, then the council should not exist. If it should not exist, then change is needed.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:52 pm

sillysir wrote: lol. Well said spicy.
For me, spicy's post was a perfect example of taking things out of context, mixing together as a wordmaster can to achieve his own agenda.
People post on a public forum their own opinion. FS, BC and even myself spoke from our perspective. It's not necessarily the collective opinion of the GU admin council. :)
Unfortunately kierra, what you just said emphasized on everything spicy wrote and made your case for the council that much harder.
I for one like to debate friendly and discuss in depth, despite if a good/proper result is possible. Thus, I will go on to say the council needs to be changed.
Doesn't really need to be changed. There are some really good people on gu admin board some of whom I admire greatly. And we have a great group of hosters with lots of experience and wisdom who weigh in on matters as well. It just needs to be more decisive in a timely manner. Deadlines put on discussions. Steps taken, and if they don't work, we backtrack. We're working on that.
I mean kierra just said there is no "leader" and all decisions are made through a consensus. Which seems fair, reasonable and accurate to me. However, the problem is the council is ignoring the fact they are able to create a consensus. The council is made of 8, which is even and probably makes things a bit hard, but its possible to discuss a topic and vote upon it, right? And as far as I know, a democracy approach to a situation such as this is usually a good one. Thus, the decision will be made final based on the majority of votes. Usually it would be easier to represent topics, issues, and decisions with a leader, but its still possible to progress without one. So why do you admins keep acting like its impossible to discuss and decide upon topics and new issues, such as this?
Again, not having a leader is not the end of the world. The council, as I stated above, just needs deadlines for decisions.....this is something brad and i recently discussed.

I guess someone needs to restate what the issues are in this thread, one by one, that needs deciding....there was so much input from several players, each with their own agenda.
Let's narrow it down and move forward with constructive ideas.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by sillysir » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:22 pm

kierra wrote: For me, spicy's post was a perfect example of taking things out of context, mixing together as a wordmaster can to achieve his own agenda.
People post on a public forum their own opinion. FS, BC and even myself spoke from our perspective. It's not necessarily the collective opinion of the GU admin council. :D
Yes, spicy probably didn't perfectly match everything you intended to say and he did use clever word play and essay construction to achieve a proper analysis. However, his process and his result turned out well, especially as a persuasive argument, any English teacher would acknowledge this. :P
kierra wrote: Again, not having a leader is not the end of the world. The council, as I stated above, just needs deadlines for decisions.....this is something brad and i recently discussed.

I guess someone needs to restate what the issues are in this thread, one by one, that needs deciding....there was so much input from several players, each with their own agenda.
Let's narrow it down and move forward.
Its not the end of the world and as I and others have been pressing: CHANGE.
1) Choose a leader. brad is picked on constantly, maybe hes interested in taking the hits as leader. ;)
2) Read. Re-read. Think. Re-think. Discuss. Re-discuss.
3) Find an issue (something not every admin agrees with).
4) Read. Re-read. Think. Re-think. Discuss. Re-discuss.
5) Decide.
6) Force brad to tell the league what the decision is and have any arguments to the decision be blamed at #blamebrad. But perhaps, those arguments would create another discussion.

What I mean is throughout this entire thread, there have been numerous issues presented. And to those issues there have been many suggestions for fixes, which have also created their own issues. And as gu admins, it is your responsibility to address these issues. To address issues you are to come along and discuss.

To define discuss: All gu admins talk freely about a certain topic and after a certain amount of days/certain amount of responses, you vote individually, then as one group, present the result to the league.

However, you have not discussed properly. And if you have discussed at all, then you have not voted upon. And if you have not voted upon, you will need to come up with another way to find a result. If you can't find a result, then you have wasted everyone's time, including yourselves.

Again, we aren't asking for everything ever to exist be solved. We are asking for issues (especially popular ones) to be discussed and shown it has been discussed by showing a result. I could care less if the result is against my personal opinion. But I do care if the result was never found properly. And if the result was found properly, then you probably will have some players argue against it. However, those arguments shouldn't be ignored or prevented or stop you from trying to get a result. But if enough players argue about the same thing for a certain amount of time, then perhaps the issue should be re-discussed with the new arguments.

Also, if you don't want a leader, thats fine and just as smart. But if you don't have a leader, then you need to work together and have a method of presenting results and issues to the league and from the league. And so far, you have not worked together.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:47 pm

In a multitude of words there lacks not trouble....
thats what she said!
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by slime » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:55 pm

kierra wrote:I guess someone needs to restate what the issues are in this thread, one by one, that needs deciding....there was so much input from several players, each with their own agenda.
Let's narrow it down and move forward with constructive ideas.
1. Who is able to play in Riker Cup's?
2. Should the necessity of having one admin as captain and one non-admin as co-captain be kept the same or changed?
3. There needs to be some sort of change to how the GU Council operates if they are unable to answer issues such as these in a timely manner.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:25 pm

4. GU Council formulates a position on each item, votes on each item by a majority decision within 7 days, absentee votes count as a yes unless they have offered their vote as a proxy to another Council member.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by kierra » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:30 pm

Thank you slime and Frank for the breakdown to 4 items.
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by blast » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:55 pm

Frank The Tank wrote:absentee votes count as a yes
Frankly, that sounds like a horrible idea. They should count as abstaining from voting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstention
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:48 am

That's the whole point blast there is no abstaining, there is no non committal vote, some may be away for a month they vote proxy, they can't decide so vote proxy.
Therefore there should be no delays.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by blast » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:24 am

I don't understand how you think that's a good idea. If there are 10 people on the council, and two of them say "No, we shouldn't do this thing we are voting on" and the other 8 are unavailable, why should it get pushed through as a "yes"? Or am I just misunderstanding what you are saying?
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:20 am

The current decision making model for want of a better word is inadequate. As players we don't fully know how decisions are agreed upon if they are not voted on given there is no Leader/Chairman to direct or request 'a vote is now required' on an issue. Through trial and error the Council should be able to determine which issues require a reasonable time and as discussed in this thread some things may spawn other questions but at least a pathway needs to be decided.

Example, Bans 3 days, Rikers discussion may be 20 days from the beginning of this thread, the point being every issue should be capped with a reasonable time scale for resolution.
Here are a few examples of the current decision making model, 20 minute matches from conception to final approval took 2 years get the Council go ahead.
On behalf of some players, I'm still waiting for a decision requested back in August of last year regarding a protocol be put in place in the Q & A for muting or non muting of players during an offi. On behalf of some other players I put in a request to cancel a match because 2 caps were made during a 'sub' rule, do those 2 caps count or not, was deferred till the end of the match by the players. That was before Christmas. I have another situation this side of Christmas, but you get the idea.

Now to answer your question, we would need to understand what time scale was placed on an issue and how Council would actually know it's been read.
As a minimum the Council would want say 70% of members to have viewed an item for discussion, establish whatever that threshold may be, 50%, 60 %.
The answer to it's been 'read' can be solved by having the Admins signature once they have viewed the item. The issue has a time scale, should an admin which to defer the vote then they need to say so and reset the clock. In the mean time they may have had a chance to discuss with another admin whom views they agree with so they give them their vote by proxy if they are going to be absent.

If the Admin has read the item but hasn't cast their vote for whatever reason there after then their vote should count, not be abstaining as they have a choice.
Fundamentally that's why they are in the Council is to make the choices, develop protocol, assist in player enjoyment.
If nothing else comes out of this Rikers thread, it is apparent players want a proactive Council able to make decisions in a timely manner forcing a vote of sorts helps achieve that.
So really the situation of 80% of admins either not having read the item therefore not being available can be avoided if Council members so choose.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by blast » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:00 am

I never said anything about the time limit being a bad idea, as I think that would be a great idea. The part I specifically mentioned twice was your idea to count people who didn't vote as a "yes". And really, if an admin has time time to leave their "signature", why can't they just vote? You're making it needlessly complicated. If they want to have a say in the discussion, they can take a few minutes and post. If they want to ignore it, they can ignore it.
Frank The Tank wrote:If the Admin has read the item but hasn't cast their vote for whatever reason there after then their vote should count
Ah, so if they haven't voted, their vote should count. Got it! Wait, what? If they didn't vote, then what vote would be counting?
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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by Frank The Tank » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:43 am

Blast, What happens under the present system after an issue has been read and no comments by the reader have been offered into the discussion?

So lets carry that forward, under a time constraint, hypothetically 10 admins have all read it, no opinions but only 1 vote has been recorded as a yes, need a majority vote.
The others whom have read it, their abstaining will count as a 'yes' automatically unless they make other arrangements by proxy, requesting a time extension or saying no.

So all you have to do is to agree upon a threshold of minimum number of readers of the GU Admins available.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by slime » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:58 am

Frank The Tank wrote:hypothetically 10 admins have all read it, no opinions but only 1 vote has been recorded as a yes, need a majority vote.
The others whom have read it, their abstaining will count as a 'yes' automatically unless they make other arrangements by proxy, requesting a time extension or saying no.
Instead of abstaining counting as a 'yes' vote, simply keep them as 'abstaining from voting' as blast said, but get rid of the 'majority vote' aspect. So in your example, if one admin votes 'yes' and nine abstain, the admin who voted 'yes' has the authority to go ahead with whatever he voted 'yes' for, given a reasonable amount of time has passed for the other admins to offer their opinion.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by macsforme » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:15 am

jadespicy wrote:Consistency goes against what the Council are able to accomplish as a group. Overall they have the coherency of an indecisive 10 year old. They are an elite bunch who protect each other as they individually make hypocritical and personal judgment calls.

See, if they clarified the rules they would start to violate them in plain sight. It also reduces their power to do whatever they want.

The Council frequently have to make subjective decisions. The problem is not that the issues and decisions are subjective, the problem is that the Council is an inhumane monstrous player-crunching demon that cannot know fault so when a judgment or clarification has to be made it is not as well received as it would be from a dictator who has the players best interests at heart and openly admits to and corrects mistakes made in the past.

The Council is as vengeful as a democracy, as impulsive as its masters, and selfish. And that is why if you want a simple rule clarification you will upset the beast that shall claim a clarification as neither necessary nor appropriate.
You, sir, literally made my jaw drop.

The GU Admin team is not a pompous, arrogant, narcissistic, impetuous, tyrannical bureaucracy. We are BZFlag GU League players… like you. We are real people, with weaknesses and the capacity to make mistakes… like you. We have time commitments, experience life stresses, and can tire and burn out… like you. We are not beyond admitting to our mistakes… I can think of several examples, including one earlier in this very thread. We are just a group of people with a genuine interest in keeping this league healthy and active. You can disagree with our choices and criticize us all day… we don't always make the best decisions nor do we always function in an ideal capacity. Do we look out for each other to a certain extent? Yes, we do, because when an admin takes abuse from a player or cluster of players (which happens not infrequently), this takes a significant toll on the admin as an individual. Furthermore, as pointed out already, we are not one person but many of distinct backgrounds. Any kind of administrative board will eventually experience some lack of cohesion and disfunction.

The players are the whole point of having an admin board. We don't do it for ourselves. If I or any other admin has failed to serve this purpose, then the reason for our leadership role has been lost. Call me out… see if I'm really as attached to my @ as you make it sound. Constructive discussion, and even criticism, is (and I believe has always been) most welcome. There is no benefit to us if this league dies because we were not receptive to the community.

I believe the point of FiringSquad's readiness to accept and implement better-worded rules is that they are, in fact, difficult to create. If such changes are put forward and qualify, why would they not be accepted? Just please don't assume that it's easy to do. And as FiringSquad also said, most players don't have to worry about running afoul of most league rules.

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Re: Riker’s Winter Cup 2014 North America vs Europe/Asia????

Post by blast » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:54 pm

Frank The Tank wrote:Blast, What happens under the present system after an issue has been read and no comments by the reader have been offered into the discussion?

So lets carry that forward, under a time constraint, hypothetically 10 admins have all read it, no opinions but only 1 vote has been recorded as a yes, need a majority vote.
The others whom have read it, their abstaining will count as a 'yes' automatically unless they make other arrangements by proxy, requesting a time extension or saying no.

So all you have to do is to agree upon a threshold of minimum number of readers of the GU Admins available.
How can you assume that every admin read it? Why would you assume that every issue discussed is a "yes or no" question? Why would people who provided no input be able to override the people who provided input?

Just make it work like a normal voting system, not your weird system. Have a time limit for when a decision will be made, require a minimum percentage (such as a third) of the admins to voice their opinion, and base the result on the ones who actually provided a response (no automatic votes, no proxy votes). That's how it basically works right now, minus the time limit. I don't understand why you think an automatic "yes" vote to a question that may be "How long do we ban for?" or "What should we do?" is a good idea. Your kind of system would require crafting the questions specifically to avoid a bad decision from being passed through in the case of few responses (like allowing a troublesome player back in, you'd not want to ask "Should we give them another chance?", so you'd have to instead ask "Should we keep them out of the league?" so that the automatic 'yes' votes would not let them back in without a proper discussion).
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