Debate: Who gets to report

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sillysir
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Debate: Who gets to report

Post by sillysir » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:49 pm

Ok, so instead of posting another meaningless, controversial, offensive and no structure topic such as the riker or principle thread, I have decided to make this post. I believe if we handle problems this way there will be a lot more consideration to change.
So, hj, in his thread mentioned that the current system of reports and who gets to report has issues. So, lets discuss that issue and determine our options. If all players (and admins) can discuss, choose an option, then we can find a common ground and hopefully make a final decision. Instead of having admins vote/discuss upon issues as they may already do, this way, anyone in the league can contribute.

ISSUE: Who should be able to report official GU League matches?

Let's keep it simple and place 3 options, for now. When we can decide on a common ground, we could potentially decide details.
Option 1: More players should be able to report.
Option 2: Fewer players should be able to report.
Option 3: Do not change the system.


Current System:
Official GU League admins have the ability to check if a match is fair and report the match. Admins have also granted such permissions to personally selected referees.

Problems to consider:
- How do we know each report is accurate?
- How do we manage such massive quantities of reports?
- Who is capable of validating a match?
- Automatic reporting is advancing to be more reliable. However, when issues do arise with the plugin, how do we work around it?

RULES OF THREAD:
1) Do not discuss anything that is unrelated to the issue.
2) Do not call out anyone, make any offensive gestures and do not degrade the administration or player base.

If you have anything to add or be changed, please say so, I will try my best to update this title post. My goal is to keep everything organized.
Last edited by sillysir on Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
silly :P

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by hj » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:02 pm

Option 2 should say "Fewer", not "Less" :p

Well, my take on this is obviously Option 1.

Problems to consider:
With regards to the massive quantities of reports - well, the number of reports won't change because the number of matches won't change. The only difference would be that the burden would be lifted from the few who have to report all the time (*cough* brad *cough*) and spread to everyone.
The way I see it, if we do in fact implement more reporters/universal reporting by everyone on the spawn list, there will be no realistic way of checking the validity of each match individually by looking at replays. Too cumbersome and impractical.
That being said, if there were a drastic increase in reporters, then I think the most realistic way it could be implemented is that the players would have to come to an agreement. Each team would have to be responsible for their matches, so if there's some random score, for example that says BZB 6 - Survivors 2, and no one on Survivors recognizes it, then it's up to Survivors to report the issue. Only these issues would have to be confirmed by replays. So, it's a trade-off for the players if everyone agrees to it - get the ability to report, get the additional responsibility of checking for issues with your matches. I'd say biggest argument against this is that there are several teams with a billion players so how would they keep track of everyone else's matches, but in this day and age of GU, no one team has more than 2-3 matches/day and they're usually from 2-3 of the same players. So, all in all, I think it's a practical system that could work. Only issue is if someone reports a match vs. an inactive team, but that should be pretty easily spotted. No one expects [BoOm] to all of a sudden start matching again. If only...

What do y'all think?
-hj

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kierra
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by kierra » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:46 am

I don't believe everyone should have ref perms, period.
Been on the receiving end of having to check out a falsely reported match. Took over an hour of tracking down the replay server and then going through the matches that day to ascertain whether or not the match was indeed played and the correct team given the credit for the win.

BUT, I do agree that more refs could be added until the ARP is fully functional. Ref'ing just work anyway.
Then refs' position will be obsolete.

I do think match reports should be include also the server it was played on :D
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by macsforme » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:25 am

Full autoreport deployment is imminent. I see little reason to change the referee/reporting system at this time.

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by kierra » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:52 pm

Not to be the devil's advocate, but "How imminent is 'imminent?"
If not today, then why not add a few refs? Where is the harm?
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by jh^ » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:35 pm

Atleast every team(active one) should have option to report match, that is one of the players in that team, maybe captain?

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by sillysir » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:25 pm

I don't think the system is that bad right now. As consti said, autoreport is imminent. I mean right now it already reports tons of matches every day correctly. Yes, there are some bugs to it, but I mean, when will there NOT be bugs to it? I think more servers need to implement the plugin.

And I am not sure how matches are actually filed, but as kierra said, I think it would be helpful to add information to the reporting system. Such as what server and who played. Adding those items each time you report may increase difficulty manually, but it would help keep matches accurate, easy to replay, and helpful for history. And autoreport already does numerous checks based on the players and teams playing. I'm sure once all the servers implement the plugin and a few bugs tweaked, manually reporting would be rare.
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by Frank The Tank » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Is now a good time to mention in the last 6 months a couple of team Captains were plotting to enter false matches ???

Least number of people enter least number of hassles.
Or does someone want to volunteer to check every report for accuracy?

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by allejo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:23 pm

kierra wrote:Not to be the devil's advocate, but "How imminent is 'imminent?"
If not today, then why not add a few refs? Where is the harm?
I hope "imminent" can be this weekend :)
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by kierra » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:37 pm

40% of the last 30 matches had to be entered manually. just saying.....its not like 95% are ARP.
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by hj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:43 pm

@allejo: it would be awesome if autoreport were perfected by this weekend - it's awesome that you've been working on this and it is definitely the most elegant and efficient way to report matches. kudos to you!

@jh: teams are so fleeting these days - does that mean that every time two/three people make a new team, one of their members should become a ref? eventually you'll get to a point where half the players are refs - which i'm all for but might as well do it from the get go.

@silly/kierra: yeah i really like the idea of adding server/port to the match report. in fact, doing so would let you pinpoint the match exactly with server replay, between server (so you know which replay server to check), date, and time. wouldn't actually need the people who played, silly, that would probably be extraneous info.

@frank: i really dislike that argument because it propagates the mentality that players cannot be trusted. the actions of the few should not be extrapolated to assume guilt for all players. that is very unfair. i'm assuming that these individuals were banned, and if i may add - how many times since the beginning the GU League has that happened where players plotted to report false matches? if it's an isolated incident, then it should be treated as such and not as justification to distrust people. Besides, the way match reporting works right now, it would be just as difficult to mail a ref on the site saying "my team over Rainbow 5-2 whatever time UTC" as it would be to enter it myself if everyone had the perms. if someone is going to abuse the reporting system and has already decided they are going to enter a false match, i doubt the access to perms would be the one thing that would deter them. they would find a way to do it regardless.

also, i'm not saying every report should be checked for accuracy - in my last post, i said that only matches that are disputed would be checked for accuracy. and if servers were added to reports, then that would expedite that process quite beautifully! again, though, that comes back to the idea that guilt cannot be assumed.

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by sillysir » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 pm

hj wrote: wouldn't actually need the people who played, silly, that would probably be extraneous info.
Yea, well I was just thinking that if every player was able to report, requiring them to enter the people who played may help define which matches are accurate or fake, because then you can just ask other players or look into the player stats and see if those players did actually participate. Also, I would find it interesting to look through the history of matches and see who did what, kinda see how each player plays and with whom.
hj wrote:@frank: i really dislike that argument because it propagates the mentality that players cannot be trusted. the actions of the few should not be extrapolated to assume guilt for all players. that is very unfair. i'm assuming that these individuals were banned, and if i may add - how many times since the beginning the GU League has that happened where players plotted to report false matches? if it's an isolated incident, then it should be treated as such and not as justification to distrust people. Besides, the way match reporting works right now, it would be just as difficult to mail a ref on the site saying "my team over Rainbow 5-2 whatever time UTC" as it would be to enter it myself if everyone had the perms. if someone is going to abuse the reporting system and has already decided they are going to enter a false match, i doubt the access to perms would be the one thing that would deter them. they would find a way to do it regardless.
The problem is determining who is trustworthy and who is not. No one is saying that everyone is a trouble maker or untrustworthy. But some people are untrustworthy, and how do we filter those people out of the permissions? And who knows, someone who may be trustworthy now, may one day get mad, and decide they want to boost their team stats. Right now, the only way to boost your stats by cheating is to hack the system (pretty hard, especially to be undetected) or to scam a ref to reporting. And I believe right now there is some system of actually determining if the report is plausible.

Also, if we gave everyone permission to report, whats to stop a team from reporting multiple fake and real matches? And then how do we filter all those matches from the fakes and the real, and then how do we determine who the culprit is? Yes, all this scamming could happen now, but its such a small and selected group of reporters that its easy to control.

As kierra said, 12 of 30 matches had to be manually reported. And those 30 matches span over about 4 days. With currently 19 total admins and refs, that means each of those people would have to manually enter 0.157 of a match each day. Or simply put 3 people enter 1 match once a day. And with ARP increasing, this number is decreasing. So, I believe the current system is completely fine.
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by hj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:36 pm

true, there would be nothing to stop a team from reporting multiple fake matches. i'm saying if universal reporting were implemented, it would be on the team who the match was against to report it - then the winning team would have to say which server it was on and after that, checking the replay is a matter of minutes, if not seconds. i just think we're grossly overestimating the number of falsely reported matches when there is very little evidence to do so (a few times in the past 9 years?)

also true, the 3 people entering 1 match a day thing - but for an active team, think about it this way. my team has matched almost 50 times in the past week, of which 24 (about half) were autoreported. that's 26 others that weren't, or over 3 matches a day that need to be manually entered. and numbers like this aren't inconceivable for any team with a few active players. depending on when these matches are played (refs are few and far in between in the morning compared to at night), then it becomes a hassle to go to the site and mail a ref/admin a match. especially if you play multiple matches one after another (re's, for example).
-hj

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by kierra » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:37 pm

hj wrote: for an active team, think about it this way. my team has matched almost 50 times in the past week, of which 24 (about half) were autoreported. that's 26 others that weren't, or over 3 matches a day that need to be manually entered. and numbers like this aren't inconceivable for any team with a few active players. depending on when these matches are played (refs are few and far in between in the morning compared to at night), then it becomes a hassle to go to the site and mail a ref/admin a match. especially if you play multiple matches one after another (re's, for example).
Which is exactly why i don't see a problem with adding hj or any other reputable players as refs....till ARP is fully and accurately functional.
To continue to deny ref requests in this light gives the perception of excessive control....unnecessarily.
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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by Frank The Tank » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:50 pm

The problem of access by many players entering matches is not just the matches they enter but they then have access to alter matches already entered.
It would be a huge undertaking to add a large number of players to the group.

Agree with kierra, the simplest solution is to add a few more refs, not very labour intensive to add a few players to the group.
Remove inactive refs and update the list.

Keep it simple.

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Re: Debate: Who gets to report

Post by sillysir » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:41 am

Frank The Tank wrote:The problem of access by many players entering matches is not just the matches they enter but they then have access to alter matches already entered.
It would be a huge undertaking to add a large number of players to the group.

Agree with kierra, the simplest solution is to add a few more refs, not very labour intensive to add a few players to the group.
Remove inactive refs and update the list.

Keep it simple.
I agree completely with this. Add a few more refs and make sure there are several active.
silly :P

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