Reset zelo and timelimit

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blinky
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Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by blinky » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:53 am

I think it may bring some activity back, also there's like 7 active players in the top 50 and the rest of them either are genuinely inactive or don't match just cause they don't wana lose zelo.
The top 1 player is perfectly active on BZFLAG yet matched 3 times in 2011, has yet to match in 2012.
I think maybe resetting zelo and keeping record on another page of previous top scorers would be good to keep activity.
Otherwise as I have already said, people just don't play as they're scared to lose.
Courage to match a player with 1000zelo when you have 2000 zelo is what makes a good player. Also I thought about maybe a timelimit, cause some players just hide
till there opponents get bored and come out. I suppose patience is a virtue but really it's pointless, it's basically camping in a 1 vs 1 (doesn't show skill whatsoever). If there was a timelimit people would be under more pressure to finish.
I think would make it more exciting!

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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by nostromo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:59 am

Pink Brit, are you aware of the 1000-zelo-bug?
If the difference between both players is bigger than 1000, the higher rated one loses points, no matter what - even if he wins the match. If the difference is between 700-800 zelos, the higher rated player hardly gets any additional zelos.

For example:
Player A (2400 zelo) wins 10-0 vs PLayer B (1250 zelo) result: Player A loses 6 zelos.

After all, it is a league, so players need an incentive to play official matches. Losing zelos if you win a match hardly does that. Besides, I have seen plenty of those inaktive players play 1vs1-fms.

Timelimit/smaller size:

The "real" 1vs1 is played on ducati, the mapsize fits. Matches there are faster, Hix isn´t build for 1vs1, reducing the size or adding a timelimit won´t change that fact.
It will only lead to the following situation:
The first kill will decide the match, because the trailing one now has to attack because there is limited time. So the leading one will only camp and hide more, and gets his kills handed on a silver platter.


Resetting Zelo:
I do not see a reason for that, or can we now say: UK never won a FIFA worldcup, because they haven´t won one in the last 50 years? Just lets remove them from history? ;-)

Checking the (inaktive) toplist, red-der played 2192 official matches, wizard 1572, slime 1312, hurricane 945, mania 727, together 6748 (I know, really really bad math, I didn´t subtract the matches played vs each other). Considering there have been played only 28340 matches, those 5 players played nearly 1/4th of all official matches in 1v1. I guess they earned their spot.

blinky
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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by blinky » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Ofcourse I am aware.
My point was who cares?
Perhaps just 1 vs 1 timelimit for hix would be better as I agree on ducati 1 vs 1 is alot faster.
As for deserving their spot, I did mention in my post that there's another page setup for previous champions but perhaps we shouldn't only look at the past and keep the 1 vs 1 league active.

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strayer
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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by strayer » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:46 pm

time-limit
The idea of having a time-limit came up many years ago. Result was what Gargoyle said - it would cause more trouble than it would help.

ZELO bug
I'm getting tired of people complaining about that bug. Especially since I can't understand the ZELO ranking could be a real motivation for players to be active. Therefore I don't get it into my head when I hear something like "I don't match because I don't want to lose ZELO points."
There were plans to replace ZELO by ELO, a modified ELO (taking the score diffence into account), Glicko2 or TrueSkill. The result is that the first two options were criticized and for the last two ppl want to see how it works. The problem with Glicko2 and TrueSkill is the number of changes that have to be done getting it working (verification of existing implementations, own implementation, checking special cases, ...). So the work for both is that much that I don't want to waste my time just with the result players don't like it.
RESULT: I'll replace ZELO by a modified ELO

resetting ZELO
I understand you point, the pink brit. But for what you want there is the monthly trophy ranking. The ZELO ranking was thought to run over time. So, Glicko2 and TrueSkill would be rating systems considering your argumentation. Old high scores of players who aren't matching for a long time won't keep their score. Therefore there would be a decrease of their "estimated strength" over time. Well, world isn't perfect...read above.
> EVERYBODY IS VERY WELCOME TO IMPLEMENT/TEST GLICKO2 AND/OR TRUESKILL. (TrueSkill perferred!) I'll support you with scores, match times and the research results I made so far.

Thank you for your message(s). It gave me the motivation to remove ZELO within this month. I'll replace it by the modified ELO. 20 to 30 % of the score increase/decrease will depend on the score difference of both players. The typical ELO weighting factor will be similar to what is used for Ducati and GU League. Both parameters will be tested and published here and on the 1vs1 site.
A preview to give you an idea about the change of rankings: http://1vs1.bzflag.net/allplayers_elo.php
A pessimist is an optimist with experience... ;o)

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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by jh^ » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:19 pm

Great(for replacing zelo with elo). Nice to see list of top players maybe change a bit, list has been to similar for many years and most are inactive. And maybe it will result more activity to league.

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strayer
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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by strayer » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:05 am

jh^ wrote:Great(for replacing zelo with elo). Nice to see list of top players maybe change a bit, list has been to similar for many years and most are inactive. And maybe it will result more activity to league.
Let's hope you are right >>> http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=17931
A pessimist is an optimist with experience... ;o)

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Murielle
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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by Murielle » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:53 am

why not a dynamic Elo with memory fading on a given period. I think about something similar to the "load" output in the linux command "top" or the activity rate in the ducati team page. After all, it is not senseless to consider that a player, who has not played for years, might loose his skill if he is inactive ?

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strayer
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Re: Reset zelo and timelimit

Post by strayer » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:47 pm

That's exactly what Glicko2 and TrueSkill were made for.

The current ZELO formula seems to have more deficits than the old one. At least, it doesn't contain a calc bug like the old formula but it seems to be unsuitable for 1vs1 League as red-der pointed out last week. So the formula will change...either by modification or by complete replacement.
Suggestions are still welcome. Before someone posts her/his idea, consider the following aspects, please:
- New players shouldn't start with a improper score. (This can be considered by using a corresponding volatility factor.) So, the system doesn't have to be symmetric. A winner does not necessarily have to win the same number of points that will be lost by the match loser.
- The strength of a player should be represented by the reliability of a calculated score. (That means a player's score can decrease when not matching...to a specified maximum of score decrease.)
- A winner wins at least one point, a loser loses at least one.
- There won't be made a difference between the maps.
- The match score difference hast to be taken into account, but not too much, because non-aggressive advanced players shouldn't have a serious disadvantage.
- The maximum number of points to win/lose has to correspond with the player's and opponent's ZELO score.
A pessimist is an optimist with experience... ;o)

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