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Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:52 am
by kierra

Just to reiterate what I've already sent you via forum pm:
We're here to bring about the consolidation of Ducati, Gu and OL under ONE site, each player in One team and give them the opportunity to match on several maps: ducati, hix and a choice of couple more for example: babel, pillbox, other? Players choose which team they want to move over to new site.

All those matches go to make ONE league active. It eliminates the competition between leagues for the few players left in bz and hopefully makes for a more healthy outlook to matching between maps rather than betw leagues.

Details to discuss:
  1. Calculating match points: duc & gu do it differently. Also match length differences: 15, 20, 30 vs 20, 30.
  2. Rules: review and maybe revise/update
  3. Admin/cops: duc has server admins, gu: server admins & cops
  4. Current bans: shall they carry over
  5. GU also has a spawn only group (can spawn & play but cannot talk on match servers) Sanctified and Latin Heat are currently in this group
We'll take each point one by one and reach a decision before moving onto the next.
I see a player poll for the additional maps offered besides hix & ducati. Also player input on what to call this new league.

Thank you so much for your valuable input!

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:24 am
by kierra
I have moved damns3xy & moto unit's comments to the appropriate topic.
Let's stick to the categories :)
Thank you, guys for your input, means a lot.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:21 am
by brad
After talking to several league admins we agreed upon the date of Friday 13th March to be a sufficient length of time for all parties to express their thoughts on the subject. After this date we will begin to act upon all decisions finalized within this forum.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:37 pm
by kierra
Neo read this forum and sent me this. I underlined his affirming statement re: consolidation.
Sent: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:15 pm
From: Neofit
To: kierra

First of all, as you had maybe noticed, i'm not available those last doesn't let me enough left time.... Concerning the consolidation idea.... why not if it can help BZF! I hope so... it seems you have highlight the different details to discuss and it might be easy to find a solution for each of them... except maybe for the name of this new league!

Hope to see you soon on the field


Re: Consolidation

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:49 am
by kierra
Constitution is going to be getting gu & duc sites' information to see what's actually required to consolidate the information from both sites.
Thank you to brad & blast for facilitating that endeavor.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:44 pm
by sn0w_m0nkey
I was retired when Open League (OL) was active and not very familiar with OL map(s) and rules. I've always appreciated new flavors of the game like what OL offered, and myself was always interested in testing variants like 1) ducati+GU=gucati and 2) planetmofo ctf maps - with gu/duc players, rules; to see if these games would be fun and fresh. Recently, I was fortunate enough to test a map Figurines developed and it was really fun, it had me thinking about how the new league might somehow have a role in map and ctf game development. Thoughts?

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:14 pm
by kierra
I have a few players that i polled asking me "when this will happen? Do we have a date?" Some are anxious to see it happen.

Let's get moving :)

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:30 pm
by quantum dot
kierra wrote:I have a few players that i polled asking me "when this will happen? Do we have a date?" Some are anxious to see it happen.

Let's get moving :)
anxiety is an illness of today's modern society :)

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:17 pm
by kierra
As this forum will be public at some point, I wanted to include quotes from players about the consolidation:
Sent: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:27 pm
by tox
wow, I am positive surprised to find that over the extinction of the leagues makes thoughts! I also think that we should always think about a new concept that time. What I read as a step in the right direction. Teams should be more flexible, so that you can form teams in most cases, which would lead to more offis and thus the league would be alive.
About the diehard ducati player I would not make me really worried. Everyone knows about the extinction of the leagues. Therefore, I think that a new concept for all would be more stimulus for playing again more. Or not ?
This theme is definitely among us, but important player should you include in this discussion. You're one of them ...
am happy to open for new

Yvaika in fb pm: I've actually had similar thoughts
Sent: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:43 am
From: ahs3
To: kierra
I have always wondered why bzflag leagues were so competitive, it seems natural to join the leagues. Especially when activity is low. I think it is a great idea.
Sent: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:33 pm
From: muhkuh
To: kierra
Hey kierra!

tyvm for sharing.

Seeing the problem with a thinning player base and guessing there is smthg like a 'critical mass' of players for one or more leagues to exist. So if players forced to switch, and let's say 2/3rd are willing to do so - there is another 1/3rd lost
what possibly might not be a problem if this 1/3rd already is inactive.

Talking for myself i'm strictly playing non-jumping servers (might be the only one) and did not play offis for weeks or even months because it's just not happening and my time for bz is much more scarce than ever.

A problem i see is that commited leaders (the alpha wolves of players) are leaving the place, maybe in frustration, maybe for other reasons ... i don't have the insights to that processes - but the development is not good for overall continuity in general because leagues go arphaned and inactive.
Thwarting that trend seems a necessity.

I might be one of the die hard duc players you mentioned and if cost of administration or stabilizing a league player base makes it required i'm fully with the idea (if not forced to play jumping servers and will join happily!

hope this helped in some way,
cheers & surely confidential
Sent: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:10 pm
From: leviathan
To: kierra
Hey kierra,

thanks for writing.

Your effort is honorable, but here are my honest thoughts.
A league only works, when every team has the same conditions. It bz its the map, the amount of shots and the ability to jump or not. You mix it and you lose competition. Style specialization will take place.

What could however do the magic is (and maybe you also meant that): A simplified server structure. One US server that has all your mentioned maps via mapchange command, and one European. They would be called something like "league server" and would be the place to hang out for league players. A duc match going on, while I want to play gu? Come on its 15min. A gu fm going on while I want to play an offi? Come on use the fm to warm up (or even switch to the US/Euro server if so urgent).
Get rid of all these mirrors, all these different settings, admin-groups, ports, and even the public servers. You open bz, you check this server, you see who of the guys willing to fm/offi is online and you immediately get into action.

But if you really think one league could be a good solution, I will fully stand behind. You know the league, you know every player and every dynamics of time and space in this game.

Believe me, I would play like usual, but I share my WiFi with 6 more people now. Never a stable connection with an average of 10 devices connected to the router. Time is also more and more a problem, as I'm doing my PhD now.

Get back at me with the outcome of your survey and good luck with everything that is on your mind.

Sent: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:41 pm
by alezakos
Q: Should we do this?
I don't know. It might just have the same or just a larger "special event" effect. Or it might bring back ducati matches. Or GU maps might still prevail, for the reasons I mentioned above, plus old habits die hard. I'd like to listen to what other people say. But it will definitely be easier to have a ducati match.
If we don't unify the leagues, ducati has a chance of dying. If we get them together though, I believe there will always be at least a few players who will want to do something different than GU, and they will just type /map ducati instead of having to go through the hassle of rearranging ducati teams. They won't have to be bothered to organise themselves again to play on OpenLeague. Personally, I'm actually curious to play some matches on different maps.
If you want to increase overall BZFlag activity, there are better ways, such as making an actual in-game tutorial for new players, like every game should have.
But we won't lose anything that we haven't lost already if we implement this. So you've got a yes from me
Sent: Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:52 pm
From: Slyther366
To: kierra
Hey Kierra,

I love the idea! It would make both leagues active because if someone joined the server and duc was going they would just roll with it. It would be really interesting to see how well it would go.
Sent: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:40 pm
From: Moto Unit
To: kierra
I like your idea a lot. I think it would make for a better league, would also mean less headaches for admins etc too. I think it would give folks an opportunity that they may not have had before to play more often as well. Keep me posted. I will keep it quiet for now but if you need any help gaining any support let me know. Thanks!
Sent: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:09 am
From: figurines
To: kierra
Sent: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:26 pm
From: MlG
To: kierra
Hi kierra,
in general i think this is a good idea. It already works in the 1v1 league (3 different map styles). Everyone can simply choose which map to play on. Seems fair...

I dont think die-hard GU/DUC or whatever players could really complain about this idea. Everything is a matter of choice. If you dont want to play on the other maps... Just DONT. Simple. No one will force anyone else to match. There are just more possibilities and more flexibility.

Personally I would like to see officials on Pillbox again really, really, really much!! I agree that making an own league for that does not really make sense right now.
Sent: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:53 pm
From: kajo
To: kierra
Generally, I like the idea of combining those two leagues as it adds new spirit to the competition itself, competing on different levels. I'd presume, though, that as you mentioned, many gu players won't choosing their gu team over ducati, but still it may add an incentive to try out other game modes.

Question: This would mean that all teams (gu, duc) are going to be dissolved, right? Not sure how I feel about that. As GU is more active but Duc has also lots of traditional teams, this could raise conflicts..

f.e., not sure how i feel about a "new" FF, but still the general idea is great.
Bomber on bzflag:
Neofit's is posted in this thread above.
Chatting with Monster on bz: he was excited about it, esp the idea to play on several different maps in a league setting.
I've spoken to many more: gorgo, Major Dee and more....all favorable in their response - just didn't have sshot or chat. But they all have access here and had the opportunity to weigh in.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:23 am
by kierra
I really feel that this forum should be the beginnings of the public forum for the new league. Albeit, perhaps the discussions here locked once final decisions are made.
It shows that a broad section of players were involved in the process and also that there was broad appeal to the idea.

Otherwise, how do we demonstrate to the public that a representative group of players helped bring this new league about?

Need i remind everyone that today, March 13 is final day to post ideas!

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:23 pm
by sn0w_m0nkey
agree with kierra, lets get this thing going! :D

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:26 am
by hj
Yeah, another thing that should be discussed is the consolidation of teams. You'd have to have new teams, and that kinda ruins the historic teams on both duc/GU such as VBz, FF, EiE, BZB, T42, BoOm, whatever other old teams exist at the bottom of the page.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:45 am
by Bullet Catcher
So far, most of the discussion seems to be based upon the assumption that we would create a brand new league that would incorporate and preserve (to some extent) the match and team history of the GU and Ducati leagues. Many people are wisely concerned about how rank-and-file players will react to such a merger.

I propose a slower approach:

1. Convert the GU league web site to BZiON as soon as is reasonable.

2. Add another map (not Ducati) or two to GU in "exhibition" mode where FMs can be played but not official matches.

3. After a few weeks, if player feedback is positive, promote the map(s) to official status.

4. Add Ducati style in exhibition mode.

5. Let the players react as they will.

6. If player feedback is sufficiently positive, import the Ducati history and wait for more reactions.

7. Decide what to do, based upon the information collected.

The advantage of this approach is that we don't have to guess how the players will react to what we do. Instead, their genuine reactions will be part of the process, which will advance slowly enough that most of them will feel like they have an opportunity to be involved. We could add a few similar steps to get the Open League history imported, if desired.

Note that in this plan, the name of the league would remain Games United (which I think is very appropriate). At any point we can let the players nominate and vote on a new name.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:04 pm
by hj
I'm on board with BC's idea. It gives the whole league a chance to submit their input for this idea and test it out like a trial run.

One minor detail with adding ducati style in exhibition mode, though, is I'm not sure it'll change anything. If people want to play ducati style, they'll just go to the official servers. I think you'd need to do a trial run of officials, etc. with GU/duc together for 2-3 weeks and then gauge player feedback. If people like it, then make it permanent - if not, then revert back to what we have now

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:57 pm
by figurines
DUC and GU should just be combined...GU/DUC league councils should vote and then it should happen. It will be good for both leagues.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:02 pm
by kajo
Agree with the idea of adding 1-2 new maps to the map range, it's refreshing and might add an extra incentive for players to give the new league a chance. Not sure if adding the duc style later or from the beginning in the map rotation would make any difference concerning the amount of players that actually play the duc maps. I'd still give it a go anyway.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:06 pm
by kierra
figurines wrote:DUC and GU should just be combined...GU/DUC league councils should vote and then it should happen. It will be good for both leagues.
Need to refocus, what was polled to ~25 representative players and that was what generated excitement.
The whole reason for this forum was to bring ducati & gu under one roof with combined leadership from both and additional leaders from players.
Players vote on which additional maps to be added. Note: there has been interest in pillbox and babel, but players decide.

Trial runs to work out bugs is fine, but don't lose sight of original purpose: duc + gu +++
hrj wrote: I think you'd need to do a trial run of officials, etc. with GU/duc together for 2-3 weeks and then gauge player feedback. If people like it, then make it permanent - if not, then revert back to what we have now

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:16 pm
by styx
kierra wrote:
figurines wrote:DUC and GU should just be combined...GU/DUC league councils should vote and then it should happen. It will be good for both leagues.
Need to refocus, what was polled to ~25 representative players and that was what generated excitement.
The whole reason for this forum was to bring ducati & gu under one roof with combined leadership from both and additional leaders from players.
Players vote on which additional maps to be added. Note: there has been interest in pillbox and babel, but players decide.

Trial runs to work out bugs is fine, but don't lose sight of original purpose: duc + gu
hrj wrote: I think you'd need to do a trial run of officials, etc. with GU/duc together for 2-3 weeks and then gauge player feedback. If people like it, then make it permanent - if not, then revert back to what we have now
Completely agree kierra. It would be too sharp a turn to suddenly change from GU + duc. This doesn't seem quite fair to the people who have been polled, who have thought about it, given input, and who are looking forward to it. The whole point of the idea in the first place was to combine the two, after all.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:12 am
by macsforme
BulletCatcher's proposal sounds like a sound, methodical approach. However, I have several concerns with it. The first is that this proposal sounds exactly like a GU takeover of the ducati league, which we have purposefully avoided from the beginning due to the likely negative perception by the ducati crowd. It is important that this be a merger, so that each side feels that they are represented and are equal partners in the new league. Additionally, BulletCatcher's approach requires multiple, significant transition steps, each of which will require its own consideration, planning, testing, and execution, which seems more complicated than a single, larger transition, going through each step only once. Also, we have been through several different league sites, and the two now are not even identical... there is some orphaned data, team names with illegal characters, user accounts with corrupted names, matches with only one team playing, etc. This process is a good opportunity to process and validate all of the data, which would be simpler in one step.

We can always fall back to the individual ducati and GU sites, if problems arise or if the reaction is negative.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:37 am
by figurines
I think GU has taken over DUC league already...
Nobody plays DUC anymore, we all play GU
So let's keep it simple and combine the two. People feel that DUC is being taken over, the real reason they feel that way is because GU has been taking over DUC for a while now.

Just let it happen...if people are upset it will merely bring more discussion and players to the league who need an audience to complain...There's no such thing as bad business at this point


Re: Consolidation

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:55 pm
by kierra
Yes, GU may have overtaken ducati in popularity from the viewpoint of most players....since most choose gu to fm/match.
It doesn't mean there aren't players who prefer ducati. Part of the problem is most diehard duc players are in 2-3 teams. Two teams matching each other over and over do not make for an active league. Special events trigger activity for the day, but no carryover to officials in an ongoing basis from other duc teams.

With some players asking for OL for map variety and with the diminishing player numbers, it doesn't make sense to have 3 leagues competing for the remaining player base,

With leagues under one roof, all matches will go to activity, regardless of the map played.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:13 pm
by blinky
Not particularly true fig, people do sometimes play ducati matches, it's not a dead league and with comments like that you're not going to help the transition you're much more likely to promote a negative reaction as it's quite a sensitive subject for some people. Although I do think we should cut the crap and just convert the leagues and if in a month or two nobody likes it then convert it back.
We should be able to match on any map, I don't see why there should be an issue on adding new maps to the league, it's the players choice if to use them or not and since there's a mapchange plugin it's not like it would clog up the server list, what would be the problem?
If this project would just be for ducati and gu maps then i'm less supportive of it and would create anotherone "Multileague" for all other appropriate maps.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:51 pm
by Monster
So am I correct in thinking that this is the place to post general ideas and thoughts that don't fit into the other topics?

If so, here we go:

First of all, I really like the idea in general. It might draw new players into league play and help keeping those who are already active entertained. But I think that we have to be extra careful with this change because it could also end up losing us players. That is why I believe that promotion is an important part of this operation. We should have messages appearing on the official servers of each league before the change that inform the players who aren't active on these forums about what is going to happen (or a link to a website that provides this information).
I think it is important to come up with a new league name that does not remind of any of the existing leagues. We have to communicate that this is a merger and not an usurpation. That is why I think a whole new website is a necessity that resembles a clear cut and a new start.

When I spoke to kierra it seemed like it was very probable that with this merger there would also come a widening of the mappool. As I didn't find a thread on this topic I am not sure what is the state of affairs on that matter. In my oppinion this is an opportunity to give good ct maps a platform that should not be missed. A greater variety in maps would counteract boredom and may be an incentive for new players to join our awesome league-to-be.

PS: Are we ready to discuss about new league maps, yet?

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:01 am
by macsforme
Monster wrote:Are we ready to discuss about new league maps, yet?
This forum was intended to initially narrow down a few key issues before we go to the general public with a proposal. The discussion on maps was going to be open for public comment after that, but feel free to start a topic for that if you have some thoughts, and we can just keep using that topic.

Re: Consolidation

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:52 am
by figurines
I think we should go ahead and do this - "push it through" so to say. Polling on a name, point system etc. all of these things are not necessary. We can fix any issues that arise after implementation. If we push this through it will create lots of buzz on the new league servers...discussions, opinions, emotions...everything that a new league needs to thrive. While people are bewitching and moaning fm's can happen, maps can be tested, offi's played.

You wake up one morning and GU and DUC league are gone-this new league has appeared called GUC league. You've gotta go check out which maps exist, how the point system works, which teams are around and express your dislike of the awful name. Listening to those complaints, changing things as we go, adding maps, adding advertisement or whatever should all happen AFTER the new league is formed.

Everything that we can do to generate discussion on the league site, on the league servers is better than discussing on these forums. If people want a say they should sign in, play some matches, have intelligent opinions, use the /report feature, chat with admins directly etc.

"There's no such thing as bad publicity"

I doubt we'll kiss anyone off so much that they quit and don't bother checking out the new league.

I have tons of ideas on how to spruce things up, but the first step isn't making sure current league members are happy-it's surprising them, proving we can do cool, new, surprising things...proving that we're willing to jump without checking how deep the water is.