Match Points and Lengths

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kierra
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Match Points and Lengths

Post by kierra » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:28 pm

Calculating match points: duc & gu do it differently.
Need a uniform point system for consistency:
GU system: 2/3 points for 20 min
Ducati system: 0.75 for 15min, 1.0 for 20 min and 1.5 for 30 min.

Also match length differences: 15, 20, 30 vs 20, 30.
Shall we incorporate 15, 20, 30 min matches for new league?
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Re: Consolidation

Post by leviathan » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:36 pm

Huhu!
Although I am currently not very active I'll take the first reply.
Thanks for this attempt to create a future for our beloved leagues.

To discussion point 1:
I think we should go for highest flexibility and apply all three options (15, 20, 30) on all match servers. Will possibly slightly increase the amount of started (fun)matches and loser the amount of forfeits.

A suggestion to include to the list of discussion topics:
The server/mirror situation. In my vision it could help to reduce the amount of servers. One located in the US and one located in the EU. Both with a mapchange option. People know where to go, people see who is online right away, probability of (fun)matches to start increases.

Hope to see you soon,
Cheers,
levi

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Re: Consolidation

Post by kierra » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:31 pm

TY Levi!!!!
So we don't chase rabbits, let's stick to the points above one at a time.
Then we'll move on to discuss anything else that comes up.

For the record, /mapchange is in the plan.
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Re: Consolidation

Post by figurines » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:50 pm

More maps>less maps
More activity>less activity

Very much in favor to this!

Can we please call it the "/mapchange" league

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Re: Consolidation

Post by alezakos » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:46 pm

About match lengths, do we have to enforce the same lengths for all maps? Although I haven't played matches in rarer ones, it looks to me like each map can have its own pace (fig's hix is an example that's more suited to shorter matches).
That could be enforced by the LeagueOverseer plugin, too.

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Re: Consolidation

Post by blinky » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:14 pm

It's a great plan I just hope we don't get players taking it to heart, it's forward thinking and I think the reason the leagues die is because there's less development. All under one roof means all players from all leagues will band together. There seems to be some players from ducati that won't even enter a gu server and vice versa and it's ridiculous, real players should be more open minded about what maps they will compete on. I go to a hix map because it's more active and easier to get players interested, with a mapchange option people will be far more open to playing on different maps. Openleague should never have died. I think players should get more involved in map making and help with making changes in the league because otherwise it's left to a few select admins and it's not really up to them to do everything, everyone that wants the leagues to continue should contribute in making them better and I think this is a really positive change to the system. The bzflag forums are not that easy to find, on the new website it should have it's own forum and live chat for players to discuss things.
1. Points system - is there no way of converting them into a new one?
2. Rules are pretty straight forward, I liked the idea with xleague only there was way too much hate, there could be a server or two for people that want to let out the occasional cuss just because it's human nature to get frustrated sometimes even if it's not really meant to be hurtful. Hate is a different subject though, you can have disagreements without personally giving abuse to someone else, most of us kinda know eachother and it's not nice to be given crap by friends. (I have 20 players on facebook lol).
3. Admins/Cops should be based on contributions to activity and obviously ability to analyse behaviour in a punctual but empathetic manor.
4. Current bans should be lifted, it doesn't take long to remove someone from the spawn list.
5. Spawn only group is awesome and should be on all leagues especially since we love the activity.
Last edited by blinky on Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Consolidation

Post by Moto Unit » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:03 am

Re: Consolidation
Point 1. I think 15, 20, and 30 allows for the most flexibility and opportunity for a majority of players in this new league.
Point 2. I think a review of the rules is appropriate but I am definitely not in favor of scrapping them in favor of a complete new set of rules. The rules established at the current time are a result of much trial and error, learning curve and experience for the admins and cops in learning how to deal with a variety of issues that are bound to come up from time to time in such a forum as BZFlag or other online gaming communities. I for one see no reason to reinvent the wheel when all it really needs is a bit of fine tuning to fit the circumstance with the new league. I think a group of people - no more than 5 or 6 could accomplish this without muddying up the waters too badly. I think anymore than this could lead to endless discussion without accomplishing the desired effect of having rules without being so restrictive that no one wishes to play.
Point 3. Speaking as a former cop on Vipers I think the admin - cop model works very well. Admins cant be on all the time and cops shouldn't have as many privileges as the admins but enough to maintain order and decorum in the games. I think cops are a valuable asset and have a very significant role to play....but then I am kinda prejudiced in that way:) I do think that cops and admins should have the option of having an anon. admin privilege like we used to do on Viper's so that both admins and cops can play at times without being recognized unless they wish to be. This helps with those few individuals who always seem to press the limits when cops/admins arent around but behave only in the presence of cops/admins.
Point 4. Current bans - I think current bans can and should be reviewed on a case by case basis depending on the severity of the ban. If its out right cheating I think that is more serious than say an infraction of fighting and cursing although both take away from the joy of playing the game. I think a ban board comprised of League Admins could review the bans and come to a consensus on whether the ban remains or is modified or thrown out completely. Majority rules in all decisions.
Point 5. While I understand the reason for the spawn only group list in GU, I think it may detract somewhat from players joining the league, however i think all players should be registered to play, talk, etc. This ensures continuity and an ability to more easily handle bans or trouble makers if the need arises.
Just my two cents:) Thanks all....Moto Unit:)

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by macsforme » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:13 am

Whether we are going to allow match lengths of 15, 20, and 30 on all maps like ducati currently does is an important topic for discussion.

The issue of the points formula to use is perhaps even more important, because whichever formula we choose will likely be used to re-calculate team points in the new league. For example, if we choose the GU system, existing ducati teams that are brought over may have their ratings adjusted, or vise versa. It will probably not be a significant change, but it would be best if we choose one formula or the other for consistency. The best answer might be: whichever option is less disruptive to the ratings of teams brought over from the old leagues.

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by figurines » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:39 pm

What about clearing all current scores and teams? Force players to kind of restart/start fresh?

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by kierra » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:26 am

Constitution wrote:Whether we are going to allow match lengths of 15, 20, and 30 on all maps like ducati currently does is an important topic for discussion.

The issue of the points formula to use is perhaps even more important, because whichever formula we choose will likely be used to re-calculate team points in the new league.
Is it absolutely necessary to re-calculate team points retroactively???? Can't we just choose one way to determine match points from the onset of the new league. Teams come to new league with their current points, and matches afterwards are determined accordingly.
To my knowledge, osta did not change team points retroactively in May 2013 when ducati instituted point differential.
figurines wrote:What about clearing all current scores and teams? Force players to kind of restart/start fresh?
I know that GU has a rich history in [FF] team....active since it's the league's inception and now >7100 matches to their credit. I don't want to see that gone.
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by brad » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:51 am

figurines wrote:What about clearing all current scores and teams? Force players to kind of restart/start fresh?
Pleeeease don't do this. History/memories are very important (imo)

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by alezakos » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:23 pm

Apparently, both GU and ducati use the same basic formula, with the only difference being the multipliers each league uses for its match lengths (ducati's are 0.75 for 15 minutes, 1 for 20 minutes and 1.5 for 30 minutes, while GU uses ~0.67 for 20 minutes and 1 for 30 minutes). kierra's suggestion was not to use a uniform point system, but keep each map's multipliers to calculate future match scores. This means that HiX would get scored according to GU rules, while the ducati map would get scores according to its corresponding league, and this is something that can be very easily implemented in the new league site. That would minimize the amount of changes required for players to adapt to, displeasing fewer of them.

As far as other maps are concerned, we can follow the same procedure, by using the same formula and changing multipliers.I think it would make sense to evaluate each map to make the multipliers as fair as possible. Some maps might make it easy to cap, averaging more points than others and thus making team scores more unfair, if scores are not adjusted accordingly. (edit: that's not true, see Constitution's reply below). Another particularly evil idea would be to increase scores for less popular maps in order to encourage players to play them.
Last edited by alezakos on Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by bomber » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:01 am

hi to all survivors :o)
(hi levi)

First i think that all this activity is very good!
i think that problem of all leagues is, that most of good skilled players joined only few teams(Bayern Muenchen)
and all leagues suffered on it. I remember how fun is to play fm (fun), even in diffrent leagues! What about
then to introduce personal or groups ELO rating system additionally for fm-like game (red and green team consisting of players from diff. teams
but playing points for own team). Maybe its too complicated, but it is chance to attract more players for league matches.

best
bomber

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by macsforme » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:22 am

alezakos wrote:Apparently, both GU and ducati use the same basic formula, with the only difference being the multipliers each league uses for its match lengths (ducati's are 0.75 for 15 minutes, 1 for 20 minutes and 1.5 for 30 minutes, while GU uses ~0.67 for 20 minutes and 1 for 30 minutes). kierra's suggestion was not to use a uniform point system, but keep each map's multipliers to calculate future match scores. This means that HiX would get scored according to GU rules, while the ducati map would get scores according to its corresponding league, and this is something that can be very easily implemented in the new league site. That would minimize the amount of changes required for players to adapt to, displeasing fewer of them.

As far as other maps are concerned, we can follow the same procedure, by using the same formula and changing multipliers. I think it would make sense to evaluate each map to make the multipliers as fair as possible. Some maps might make it easy to cap, averaging more points than others and thus making team scores more unfair, if scores are not adjusted accordingly. Another particularly evil idea would be to increase scores for less popular maps in order to "force" players to play them.
Can you elaborate on how one formula is more or less suitable to a map style than another? I fail to see how the choice would be anything other than arbitrary. A higher or lower number of captures does not change the number of points you earn per match.

I feel that as long as the match history is preserved, most players will not mind if their team scores are altered by a few points in order to make the rating system consistent across all maps.

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by figurines » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:48 pm

Would it be possible to keep track of the # of wins each team has on each map? That way we can have a "best overall" score and then see how many matches on each map contributed to that (Example: GU: 52 wins Duc: 10 wins Pillbox: nobody plays this).

Or is it possible to have different scoreboard ("teams" link on GU league site) for a couple maps...that way teams based around really good Ducati players would dominate that scoreboard and GU teams their scoreboard.

Maybe at the end of the season the top teams could play a round robin tournament on ALL the maps to decide which is "the best" at every map?

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by kierra » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:10 am

Two thoughts with regards to match points/team ratings etc.

1. We need to encourage activity, and one way of doing this is to make losing more palatable.
3-way ladder:
The idea is this: split the tree into 3 ratings, power, activity and value. Power is the normal one we have now, the more wins, the higher the number. Activity, likewise. Value is a rating made up of both, through which a team which wins most of its matches, but plays very few does not have a good value, whereas a team that both loses many and plays many does have a good value. How this will be calculated, I have no idea. It would also be a good idea to allow the tree to be sorted by all 3, not just by value.

2. Match points
alezakos wrote:Apparently, both GU and ducati use the same basic formula, with the only difference being the multipliers each league uses for its match lengths (ducati's are 0.75 for 15 minutes, 1 for 20 minutes and 1.5 for 30 minutes, while GU uses ~0.67 for 20 minutes and 1 for 30 minutes).
kierra's suggestion was not to use a uniform point system, but keep each map's multipliers to calculate future match scores. This means that HiX would get scored according to GU rules, while the ducati map would get scores according to its corresponding league, and this is something that can be very easily implemented in the new league site. That would minimize the amount of changes required for players to adapt to, displeasing fewer of them.

As far as other maps are concerned, we can follow the same procedure, by using the same formula and changing multipliers. I think it would make sense to evaluate each map to make the multipliers as fair as possible. Some maps might make it easy to cap, averaging more points than others and thus making team scores more unfair, if scores are not adjusted accordingly. Another particularly evil idea would be to increase scores for less popular maps in order to "force" (I prefer "to encourage") players to play them.
My thought on keeping separate point system for duc is that 30 duc official matches are non-existent. Players opt mostly for 15 min with an occasional 20 min. GU players play both 20 & 30 min easily. Having a higher point value for duc matches may serve to encourage ducati matches more. GU matching will continue as it is the favored map for most players, hands down.
Just my 2¢
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by styx » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:19 am

alezakos wrote:Another particularly evil idea would be to increase scores for less popular maps in order to "force" players to play them.
Maps should be played for their playability, not for how much more reward they can generate.
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by Bullet Catcher » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:31 am

Like kierra, I think that activity (measured in total minutes of matches played per time period) ought to be elevated to a first class method of ranking teams along with ELO (or any other score based upon wins/losses). This will reward activity, and thus encourage players to increase it.

I don't know of a meaningful way to rank a team that has mostly won a few matches against a team that has mostly lost a lot of matches. Maybe we shouldn't even try, just show both independent rankings simultaneously.

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by figurines » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:39 pm

I think there should be benefits to playing with more map diversity. For instance if you keep your winning % equal (50% ducati/ 50% GU) you should get a small point bonus. Why? Your team is literally showing more skill by winning on both maps.

I'm not married to the details, but I do think a bonus would be nice.

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by styx » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:25 pm

figurines wrote:I think there should be benefits to playing with more map diversity. For instance if you keep your winning % equal (50% ducati/ 50% GU) you should get a small point bonus. Why? Your team is literally showing more skill by winning on both maps.

I'm not married to the details, but I do think a bonus would be nice.
I agree that encouraging playing on more than just hix is something akin to a must. Seems to be no better way than reflected in the teams points.
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by kajo » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Regarding match lengths: I don't think we should have a general match length for both Ducati maps and hix maps. During a hix match there are some recurring actions like defending/attacking around the corner, base fighting etc that take up a lot of time, therefore, I wouldn't go below 20 minutes match time.
Duc: 15-20-30
Hix:20-30

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by kierra » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:00 pm

kajo wrote:Regarding match lengths: I don't think we should have a general match length for both Ducati maps and hix maps. During a hix match there are some recurring actions like defending/attacking around the corner, base fighting etc that take up a lot of time, therefore, I wouldn't go below 20 minutes match time.
Duc: 15-20-30
Hix:20-30
Having spoken to allejo and alezakos regarding bzion capabilities: I think we should bring them together while maintaining their unique characteristics. Bzion can handle the different timed matches, as well as point difference between maps. ``
1. Match length: Duc 15-20-30
Hix: 20-30

2. Point difference: ducati's - 0.75 for 15 minutes, 1 - 20 minutes and 1.5 - 30 minutes, while GU uses ~0.67 for 20 minutes and 1 for 30 minutes).
Why decide which is better and force the other to change, when BZion site code can handle the difference between them. As for OL, iirc OL used gu's point value as that was in place years ago when OL started. I do not see the need to change the points system. As they stand now, they reflect the matches played in both leagues and are awarded points accordingly.
Why force change where it isn't necessary?
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by gorgomol » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:32 pm

obviously we don't need to change rules about match duration lenght and match points
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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by macsforme » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:13 pm

So we are good with a 20 minute ducati match being worth the same as a 30 minute GU match? And three maps will use one formula while one uses a different one, yet all matches apply to one list of team ratings? Is this supposed to be intuitive and user friendly so we can appeal to new players?

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Re: Match Points and Lengths

Post by kierra » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:33 pm

I'm fine with it because 15/20 min matches are played in ducati.....no 30 min matches are played except for special events like ChesVal.

so making 20 min in duc the equivalent of gu's 30min makes sense....both are the longest time length matches played.....so in reality they are equivalent!

It's not rocket science, and I don't see it being a detriment to attracting new players.
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