Ruling admins

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Ruling admins

Post by Bullet Catcher » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:05 am

From the League Committee Expectations topic:
allejo wrote:The administration for the new league will be decided based on the contributions, BZFlag activity, and the amount of activity a committee member has shown in this league merger project. This means that even if you are part of the GU League Council or are an admin for GU or Duc, it does not guarantee you will remain a part of the administration for the new league. It wouldn't be fair for someone who hasn't contributed to discussions at all to automatically be put on the administration.

The new league council be restricted to a small number of people (to be determined) in order to make future decisions quickly and efficiently without having to wait for the other 10 inactive council members to respond. Positions on the new league council will be based on nominations in addition to what was stated in the previous paragraph.
Let's start the process of choosing who the ruling admins (or council, or whatever they want to call themselves) will be. The existing GU and Ducati admins deserve nominations:

sn0w_m0nkey (GU)
NTH (GU)
kierra (Ducati and GU)
brad (GU)
Constitution (GU)

These five have all participated well in this committee, and I hope no one objects to their continued leadership in the new league (provided they agree to the role).

Chestal, menotume, and Pimpinella are technically Ducati admins, but each has been inactive for over a year. Furthermore, recent Ducati admins osta and jadespacy are invited to this forum but osta declined and jadespacy has not participated.

We have to start somewhere, so I proclaim that the above 5 active GU/Ducati admins are the ruling admins of the new league. All hail them. 8)

I don't know the decision process for changes, but we can at least start discussing specifics. Please propose any changes to the list below. Please privately confirm willingness to serve before nominating someone to be added to the admin group.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by osta » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:25 am

Well, none of you really asked jadespacy about it till yesterday, afaik ;)

Also yes, I just want to mention that I don't see any major benefit in that merger for ducati, so I'll just abstain. I'll be positively surprised if it occures that I'm wrong ;-)

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Frank The Tank » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:41 am

osta wrote:Well, none of you really asked jadespacy about it till yesterday, afaik ;)
Your comments above osta are disappointing.
Below was posted March 19 in the Admins/Cops thread

The idea of 2 admin groups has been mentioned in IRC. To begin with admins, it is thought to include the present gu ruling admins(if they're willing), osta & jade if they are willing and 2-3+ more players. I would really like to see new faces.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by osta » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:37 am

Well Frank, but are you aware that jade have access to the forum since yesterday? :-)
And I'm still not sure she even had time to read all of it yet.

Ah, would have forget. She was added to the group 4-5 days earlier, but wasn't notified about it. And day after she was removed again.
Last edited by osta on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by kierra » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:53 am

I asked osta on Thurs: Mar 26 if he had time to read this forum.
adam, not sure if you've read this far in the consolidation forum. under admins
To begin with admins, it is thought to include the present gu ruling admins(if they're willing), osta & jade if they are willing and 2-3+ more players. I would really like to see new faces.
Consti is in process of migrating teams/players over to new sitte
Are you two interested or not in being on admin board?
Mar 26, 4:30 PM

Mar 26, 4:54 Me: well, she can read it and decide
we launch soon

osta: well, I have no time to be involved into anything more right now. And also, the whole concept and rules are still unclear. So, I may wait
In dealing with several issues on several fronts, I didn't get to adding jade till Saturday, March 28. My apologies for the delay.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by allejo » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:42 pm

Because there are still a lot decisions that still need to be made, I'd like to move to have the decision of ruling admins to be delayed until this new league is more refined (i.e. the league is pretty much finalized). Reason being is to allow other committees to participate and receive nominations for their contributions as well. If we choose ruling admins now, the sense that everyone is currently an equal may disappear and other committee members would remain silent in fear of ruling admins making the decision.

While I have no objections to the nominations of the current GU/Duc ruling admins, I'd like to reiterate my point in the League Committee Expectations that they should be actively voicing their opinions. Simply because they have participated in agreeing that a merger would be nice does not mean they've participated in this committee. Not to put anyone on the spot, but compared to Constitution's and kierra's activity on this committee, they put other GU/Duc ruling admins to shame (I still love all you guys <3).

This committee was made for player representatives to voice their opinions and to get what the players want, not what the GU/Duc league admins want ;)
Last edited by allejo on Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by kierra » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:00 pm

allejo wrote:This committee was made for player representatives to voice their opinions and to get what the players want, not what the GU/Duc league admins want ;)
Amen!!!!!!
The leagues are made up of players, and I'm a firm believer that leaders serve the community. Yes we have rules and guidelines, but I feel, first and foremost, that decisions should be made for what's best for the league and its players......and if that means changing some tradition to benefit the league, then we don't let tradition stifle what's best.
allejo wrote:Because there are still a lot decisions that still need to be made, I'd like to move to have the decision of ruling admins to be delayed until this new league is more refined (i.e. the league is pretty much finalized). Reason being is to allow other committees to participate and receive nominations for their contributions as well. If we choose ruling admins now, the sense that everyone is currently an equal may disappear and other committee members would remain silent in fear of ruling admins making the decision.
I agree completely that this decision be delayed for now and for the reasons allejo stated.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Moto Unit » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:45 pm

allejo wrote:Because there are still a lot decisions that still need to be made, I'd like to move to have the decision of ruling admins to be delayed until this new league is more refined (i.e. the league is pretty much finalized). Reason being is to allow other committees to participate and receive nominations for their contributions as well. If we choose ruling admins now, the sense that everyone is currently an equal may disappear and other committee members would remain silent in fear of ruling admins making the decision.

While I have no objections to the nominations of the current GU/Duc ruling admins, I'd like to reirritate my point in the League Committee Expectations that they should be actively voicing their opinions. Simply because they have participated in agreeing that a merger would be nice does not mean they've participated in this committee. Not to put anyone on the spot, but compared to Constitution's and kierra's activity on this committee, they put other GU/Duc ruling admins to shame (I still love all you guys <3).

This committee was made for player representatives to voice their opinions and to get what the players want, not what the GU/Duc league admins want ;)
While I understand and appreciate the point you are attempting to make allejo, I for one have not seen or heard any evidence to support anything remotely resembling the committee of current GU and Duc admins voicing their opinions to get what they want over consideration for what the players want. While i consider myself a friend to both osta and Jade I am disappointed to see what appears to be foot dragging both in providing input and support for this effort. We as humans are by nature, resistant to change, we naturally like things to stay the same and not rock the boat or make waves in our particular little world which we live and play in. Fortunately or unfortunately the one constant in life is change. If you don't embrace change then one of two outcomes usually result. 1.) While everything thing else around you adapts and survives, you do not or 2.) You remain steadfast in your head stuck in the proverbial sand and when change happens anyway you are left feeling bitter and disappointed. I want whats best for a majority of players...and yes...last time I checked...the admins are players too? My gut instinct tells me that those opposed to the consolidation idea have set their collective minds to objecting to this process and would like nothing more than to have this process drag out so long as for players and admins to grow weary of even trying and therefore they get their way by default because people just give up on the idea. That would be a sad day indeed. So if not a decision now, then when? I think that is a fair question. In the real world if you have a business which is made up of several divisions each offering a similar product and one or more of those divisions is failing to attract customers how long to you think it would be before the administrators and stockholders of that corporation would start looking at consolidating those divisions in order to save the company as a whole? Is this really that different? I'm not saying it should be a cold, heartless, take it or leave it approach to saving our little corner of the gaming world. But what I am saying is that by continuing to delay making the tough decisions, the decisions only become tougher and the problems with not moving forward continue to plague both leagues. We are quite a ways from in your words "finalizing the league" but if we continue to delay and put off until each and every single player, admin, etc. is happy with all aspects of this thing....we will never accomplish anything. I have been part of a team almost my entire life, from my days of sports in high school, to my military background and experience as an electronics and telecommunications specialist, to my 36 years as a professional firefighter paramedic, and if there is one thing I know about a team dynamics is you can't possibly please them all and trying only results in gridlock and failure. It is my sincerest wish that this process keeps moving forward. I think it is crucial for a healthy, dynamic environment for the new league, whatever form it ends up taking. I will support whatever a majority of players and admins decides is best for the league. But having said that I can not support simply putting off till tomorrow what we should be addressing today.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by kierra » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:43 pm

I think allejo is referring to actually not nailing down a ruling admin board just yet.

As far as i can tell, we are waiting on:
1. nominations for admin board -see BC's comment in first post here.....would like to see 3 minimum added from the player pool if all the gu @ agree to the new league admin duties. Still many to post an opinion or 2. players get thinking :)
2. survey poll going public: deadline on allejo's survey post is next wedn., April 8 and tallying the responses.
3. finishing migration of player & team info onto the new site....its been tedious work done by constitution with input from allejo, alezakos, BC and blast.
4. finishing touches by allejo on bzion.
5. Rules http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=114&t=18971 will just need editing the name into the text when public poll results are complete.

Anything else on the agenda?
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by osta » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:50 pm

Moto Unit wrote:While I understand and appreciate the point you are attempting to make allejo, I for one have not seen or heard any evidence to support anything remotely resembling the committee of current GU and Duc admins voicing their opinions to get what they want over consideration for what the players want. While i consider myself a friend to both osta and Jade I am disappointed to see what appears to be foot dragging both in providing input and support for this effort.
Well, is nice that you see there was a huge delay in informing me (and jade especially) about the whole merging project, but at least you don't have to worry about us delaying the whole process. Personally I don't think it'll have any major benefit for ducati so whatever you plan, vote or decide, I'll just abstain.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by brad » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:39 am

osta wrote:Personally I don't think it'll have any major benefit for ducati so whatever you plan, vote or decide, I'll just abstain.
Not to bring it too off-topic, but would be nice to know why you feel this way. Last matches in duc were 2 months ago so something clearly needs to change there. Do you have some opinions on what to do?


Back to the topic: I do not think I am a good fit for such a position. I have a lot less time to devote to bz recently. Might be worth bringing some fresh faces on board.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by hj » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:24 am

Seems like there are some people who need to have 1-on-1 conversations to avoid cluttering this forum with the passive-aggressive speak I see above. It'd be nice to keep this place efficient and productive.

I second the movement allejo made about delaying the decision/personnel of ruling admins. So far, this democratic forum has come up with some fantastic (and perhaps some not-so-fantastic) ideas, but we've been able to hash them all out in order to achieve what we collectively believe is the best possible result. We should keep that going until the consolidation effort is complete, at which point I'd suggest we tackle the problem in a similar fashion.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Bullet Catcher » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:09 am

allejo wrote:to allow other committees to participate and receive nominations for their contributions as well. If we choose ruling admins now, the sense that everyone is currently an equal may disappear and other committee members would remain silent in fear of ruling admins making the decision.
Fair enough. I hereby rescind my proclamation that opened this topic.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Bullet Catcher » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:14 am

League admins have several ongoing responsibilities. Let's discuss what they are expected to do.

Manage the spawn list, which determines who can play in official matches. Admins add new players to the spawn list, and may remove players (ban) who break the rules. Typically, admins discuss in a private forum and form a consensus about the length of each ban.

Manage server ban lists to keep the most disruptive players completely off game servers.

Warn, mute, and kick players who do not follow the league rules on game servers.

Preserve player privacy. Admins can see player IP addresses and often have access to team and private chat messages on game servers. This information may be shared with other admins when discussing player behavior.

This is a partial list. What do you expect admins to do in the new league?

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by gorgomol » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:07 am

Bullet Catcher wrote:League admins have several ongoing responsibilities. Let's discuss what they are expected to do.

Manage the spawn list, which determines who can play in official matches. Admins add new players to the spawn list, and may remove players (ban) who break the rules. Typically, admins discuss in a private forum and form a consensus about the length of each ban.

Manage server ban lists to keep the most disruptive players completely off game servers.

Warn, mute, and kick players who do not follow the league rules on game servers.

Preserve player privacy. Admins can see player IP addresses and often have access to team and private chat messages on game servers. This information may be shared with other admins when discussing player behavior.

This is a partial list. What do you expect admins to do in the new league?
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by dauphin » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:45 pm

I agree with Bullet Catcher's list nomination!
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by styx » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:45 pm

hrj wrote:Seems like there are some people who need to have 1-on-1 conversations to avoid cluttering this forum with the passive-aggressive speak I see above. It'd be nice to keep this place efficient and productive.

I second the movement allejo made about delaying the decision/personnel of ruling admins. So far, this democratic forum has come up with some fantastic (and perhaps some not-so-fantastic) ideas, but we've been able to hash them all out in order to achieve what we collectively believe is the best possible result. We should keep that going until the consolidation effort is complete, at which point I'd suggest we tackle the problem in a similar fashion.
Agreed, this is not the place to air grievances that do not aid the discussion whatsoever.

As for the ruling admins, I think it makes sense not to decide this until it is decided just what exactly they are ruling.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Monster » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:50 pm

Bullet Catcher wrote: Let's start the process of choosing who the ruling admins (or council, or whatever they want to call themselves) will be. The existing GU and Ducati admins deserve nominations:

sn0w_m0nkey (GU)
NTH (GU)
kierra (Ducati and GU)
brad (GU)
Constitution (GU)

These five have all participated well in this committee, and I hope no one objects to their continued leadership in the new league (provided they agree to the role).
Although I don't know any of those 5 too well I have always felt that the GU league was a fine place to have matches and hang around. Therefore I agree with those nominations.

Furthermore I would like to thank brad for his honesty (although it is sad that you aren't around as often any more). Poor activity is what made this merger a necessity and it is the same with admins. I believe that it is very important that an admin has the time to show up on the servers at least once or twice a week on a regular basis. The communication between those in charge and the player base is very important. So that's what I would add to Bullet Catcher's list of admin duties: Provide contact with the player base.

While I agree on someone's point that activity on this forums shouldn't automatically lead to an admin position I really like allejo's input. He (or she?) seems to have a good idea on how to manage discussions and bring things foreward. Therefore I would nominate him/her for admin.

+What about sn0w_m0nkey, NTH, kierra, Constitution? Would you be willing to carry on and administrate the new league?

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by allejo » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:45 am

Monster wrote:While I agree on someone's point that activity on this forums shouldn't automatically lead to an admin position I really like allejo's input. He (or she?) seems to have a good idea on how to manage discussions and bring things foreward. Therefore I would nominate him/her for admin.

+What about sn0w_m0nkey, NTH, kierra, Constitution? Would you be willing to carry on and administrate the new league?
For the time being, let's put off the decision of the new/continuing ruling admins until we can get everything else is finalized; BulletCatcher rescinded his move to decide who was going to be the leadership and others have seconded this move as well, so let's keep it at that :)
Bullet Catcher wrote:League admins have several ongoing responsibilities. Let's discuss what they are expected to do.

Manage the spawn list, which determines who can play in official matches. Admins add new players to the spawn list, and may remove players (ban) who break the rules. Typically, admins discuss in a private forum and form a consensus about the length of each ban.

Manage server ban lists to keep the most disruptive players completely off game servers.

Warn, mute, and kick players who do not follow the league rules on game servers.

Preserve player privacy. Admins can see player IP addresses and often have access to team and private chat messages on game servers. This information may be shared with other admins when discussing player behavior.

This is a partial list. What do you expect admins to do in the new league?
Monster wrote:So that's what I would add to Bullet Catcher's list of admin duties: Provide contact with the player base.
As for the responsibilities the new administration will carry, I agree with BC's original list along with Monster's addition.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by sn0w_m0nkey » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:12 pm

Bullet Catcher wrote:League admins have several ongoing responsibilities. Let's discuss what they are expected to do.

Manage the spawn list, which determines who can play in official matches. Admins add new players to the spawn list, and may remove players (ban) who break the rules. Typically, admins discuss in a private forum and form a consensus about the length of each ban.

Manage server ban lists to keep the most disruptive players completely off game servers.

Warn, mute, and kick players who do not follow the league rules on game servers.

Preserve player privacy. Admins can see player IP addresses and often have access to team and private chat messages on game servers. This information may be shared with other admins when discussing player behavior.

This is a partial list. What do you expect admins to do in the new league?
Thank you all for consideration on this topic, much respects to you all.

I'd like to add some @'s expectations & responsibilities to BC's bullets:
  • Listen carefully to players, server owners and developers regarding any and all topics related to the health of BZ.
  • Promote a positive and supportive league environment as role models that are approachable.
  • Provide mentoring and leadership for both new and old players alike.
  • Have fun.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Frank The Tank » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:03 pm

Outline Community Based management Model for Ruling Admins

Using what BC has started with and also what hrj has written in the Admin/cops would suggest we carry on with the interaction between ruling admins and what has been created here by maintaining we use this sub-forum as a sounding board to keep the communications open at all times between players and their ruling admins.
There is some excellent work going on and it is great to see participation.

Would suggest we break the ruling admin work into sectors and seek people whom are interested and are willing to give a little bit of their precious time.

Sectors & basic tasks

Bans/Spawnlists/Match rule
• Using the GU Rules for misbehaviour as a guide
• Checking ips for adding new members
• Minimum of 3 admins needed

Events
• Create a yearly calendar showing the the regular events such as Rikers, Chesval, doubles
• Organise these events, sorting Captains, co-captains, map hosting
• Establish new events
• Be the go to group for discussion assisting other players with event ideas
• Minimum of 3 admins needed

Development
• Technical development such as language filters, map enhancement etc
• Minimum of 2 admins needed

Website
• New website design
• Maintain website
• Update website
• Minimum of 2 admins needed

Team Structure
• Temporary post to be withdrawn after merger complete
• Propose team changes and structure
• Minimum 5 admins needed

Board or overseers
• Oversee, offer guidance, act as moderator to the working groups above
• Policing & recruitment of admin/cop group
• Minimum of 3 admins needed


I’m suggesting we keep the groups small and they seek help and interaction from outside, using the sub-forum, invite people into their group on a temporary basis as needed but essentially within each group they look after there own development, and we use an overseeing board for each of the sectors to lean on when they need guidance and to resolve any disputes, hold ups etc.

There should also be provision for rotation and replacement within each group to cover absentees, and succession.

To make any decisions we do need a proper voting system and agree it is done by majority vote, hence the need for odd number of admins to each sector and a time limit is placed on each thread after a short period of robust discussions.

If the above is something that we can get started on as a line in the sand, then it wouldn’t take us long to set up some simple guidelines as to how this would work. So to continue with this momentum please provide your general agreement, thoughts, and if they are any other sectors we should have included, address as a separate working group.

Here is the twist or point of difference from what has been used in the past.
Long term, the people who wish to work in Events, Development, Website, Team structure do not have to administer/ police general map play. There are so many that want to be involved yet can’t or don’t want the burden of policing maps so why should they have too? They won’t have a @ in general play.

Lets give this 10 days for feed back, if there is a general consensus for the ideas above then I propose we create the board to implement the groups and get started. Yes that would mean we dissolve the current GU admin board and move in the direction we want with the merger being controlled by the new board. Thereafter the new board works out the mechanics for managing our community based model, And hands up anyone whom would like to be part of this group.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by kierra » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:27 pm

Having spoken directly with Frank, what i understand him saying: my additions in italics
  1. Admin ruling board: I say minimum 5-7 players:
  2. Combine technical development and site management: atm thats allejo & alezakos
  3. server admins: with @ forum access: Bans, oversee Match, assist in admin'ing the servers, to include hidden admins
  4. cops: to assist in admin'ing the servers
  5. New league ruling board: Yes that would mean we dissolve the current GU admin board and move in the direction we want with the merger being controlled by the new board. Thereafter the new board works out the mechanics for managing our community based model. Interesting idea

    Non-admin positions:
  6. Events coordinators: open to interested players and admins/cops
    • Create a yearly calendar showing the the regular events such as Rikers, Chesval, doubles
    • Assist in organizing these events
    • Establish new events
    • Be the go to group for discussion assisting other players with event ideas
Frank's team structure section is too vague for me to comment on or support without more info. Should be relegated to separate thread topic.
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Re: Ruling admins

Post by Frank The Tank » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:17 am

Thanks Kierra for your comments, bare in mind it was intended to be just an outline structure.

Unless I'm mistaken the general consensus in this subforum is for a merger of all leagues.
To that end I motion that we go about the process of selecting a board to navigate our way forward and dissolve all other boards in GU/Duc/OL.

I believe it's essential the new board controls this subforum, poll management, management structure, in effect the merger, not GU Admins.
To that end I propose we ask the hosters brad, Bullet Catcher and allejo to select the first 3 admins by unanimous vote, once selected the 3 new board members unanimously select 2 more board members so in total we have 5 board members to begin with. Voting amongst the board thereafter for future decisions are by majority vote with a timelimit placed on every topic being discussed and resolved.

Thereafter it is upon this board to navigate their way forward to decide and implement management structure, poll conditions, using the subforum as a vehicle for discussion. Just a note the management structure I've outlined in an earlier thread isn't necessarily the one but one for consideration for the new board to make.

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Re: Ruling admins

Post by styx » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:58 pm

Frank The Tank wrote:I believe it's essential the new board controls this subforum, poll management, management structure, in effect the merger, not GU Admins.
To that end I propose we ask the hosters brad, Bullet Catcher and allejo to select the first 3 admins by unanimous vote, once selected the 3 new board members unanimously select 2 more board members so in total we have 5 board members to begin with. Voting amongst the board thereafter for future decisions are by majority vote with a timelimit placed on every topic being discussed and resolved.

Thereafter it is upon this board to navigate their way forward to decide and implement management structure, poll conditions, using the subforum as a vehicle for discussion. Just a note the management structure I've outlined in an earlier thread isn't necessarily the one but one for consideration for the new board to make.
This, +1.
"A fool and his money are soon elected" -- Will Rogers

Frank The Tank
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Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:28 pm

Re: Ruling admins

Post by Frank The Tank » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:50 pm

Just a thought and not trying to influence the hosters but offer these considerations in the selection process as impartial across the 2 active leagues GU and Duc and a players choice nomination that form the basis of their 3 choices.
  • all 3 have to be agreeable to work together
  • one from current GU admin board
  • one from Ducati board
  • one players choice nomination
The 3 selected by the hosters form the board then they select 2 others as mentioned before

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