consolidation of teams 2.0

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click click boom
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consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:46 pm

The league is more active than what it has been in recent time, which is great to see. With that comes some problems, there is a lot of unskilled players in the league which is to be expected. In order for the league to grow we need to recruit new players which aren't usually going to be good. Currently there seems to be a big disparity in quality of official matches.

Most active team is Serene Grace
2nd most active team is Bad company
3rd most active Tron

Serene grace has trouble matching up with Bad Company since the team is mostly of new players, we can give Bad Company a run for their money if llrr and myself are playing. If it's anyone else it's nearly a guaranteed loss. Who wants to match when it's going to be a guaranteed loss? Not many will..

I have no problem creating my own team in helps to moving the league forward and I would hope more are interested in better quality official matches... Fun matches aren't really a great place to teach someone, yes you can learn a lot but I am not going to take as much time teaching a noob who fun matches with me once a weak as I would my own noob team mate.

My suggestion would be let the leader stay on every team and that leader keeps his most active mate that is online as much as the leader is.

The teams would look something like this:

Bad Company: Chris And Miro
Patriots: Monster and Zaa
Serene Grace: llrr and ccb
Mini: Etigah and Consti
Tron: Indy and Bunthy

Once those teams are set we would then back fill the remaining players. We would fill them by when they are on the most and who they prefer to play with. This would also give us a chance for 3v3 official matches. Right now to do a official match in the league would have to be between Apex and Bad Company. Unfortunately by looking at Apex's activity(0.11) this 3v3 official match would be unlikely to happen. I ask for the league council to step it up and make a decision and not to sit back and watch the league go back into a recession. Players are promoted to council to make decisions and I have yet to see the purpose of one because no decisions are being made. The league is active today but in 2 months it might not be... The game might be dying but that doesn't mean the league can't retain loyal players. Something has to be done and nothing has been done, it's as if someone is scared to take charge and implement change.

Please share your input.

CCB

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by macsforme » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:09 am

I'm not in favor of a forced reallocation of teams if that's what you're proposing (not saying that you are... just couldn't tell). At the same time, I agree with having more balanced teams for officials, and will support those willing to make that happen. For me personally, I'd rather have a balanced official that's a challenge over an easy win for my team... it's not about the points, it's about having a fun, challenging game.

I don't see the point in having teams of elites right now. After going through enough beatdowns over the last few years, it's just not enjoyable anymore and I won't put myself through it. I'm not typically choosey about opponents, but I don't think lopsided officials are fun for anyone nor do they benefit the league, so I won't take part in them.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:27 am

And that's an issue that we need to resolve as a league constitution, we don't want to lose players like you from offing. You are a very skilled player and losing players like you only hurts. I understand the reasoning why of course..the goal is to have fun offing, competitive balanced matches is what we need to strive for. I am not asking the league to force the hand but a lot can be done behind close doors... if 1 team doesn't do it so be it but I feel like many will if someone decides to take charge.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by Bertman » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:05 am

I agree that having teams that can match well more equally would make league play more fun and appealing. I do however agree with Consti that a forced reallocation is not the answer. It seems to early in the stage we are at to consider such a move. The current activity is due to a few team captains taking the initiative to scout and recruit. That is what has brought us back to having official matches again in the first place. I think we should move a bit slower and allow the active team captains to continue to recruit players. If someone wishes to start another team as llrr has done, then that is great. These things have all be discussed several times in the past from my understanding, and I have even made such suggestions in the past before becoming council. I don't intend to sit on my hands and watch anything die, and I am sure nobody else does. It has taken a lot of hard work to achieve and maintain what we have at this point. This stuff didn't just magically happen.

I also think that it important that we maintain a good atmosphere that welcomes the players, after all we are all here to play and have fun. The players are what makes the league and the whole game for that matter, and if we don't create a welcoming atmosphere that takes the fun out of the whole thing. I understand being competitive, and I also enjoy the fact we can speak our minds here without being censored... but we should think about comments before we let them loose in matches. That will help things along big time.

Thanks for your observations and keep shooting... things are going to get better from here ;-)

Bertman

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:15 am

@bertman to early in the stage? It has been discussed numerous times in the last 2 years...when's supposed to be the time when it's really to late? Yah what llrr has done is great, unfortunately no one else has been willing to do it all at the same time and there isn't anymore players to add..

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:16 am

There are plenty of active admins that could take initiative and begin the process without forcing people to merge....

So instead of my above template you replace it with the most active admins and branch it out..

In theory we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.. I don't understand the hesitation.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by indy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:54 pm

If the issue is balanced and more fun officials, then the framework of a team is decided by the leader of the team recruiting who that want and can get. If the leader only recruits elite players, then that is what they get. If the leader recruits all types, then they get a mix. I think you are pushing for all types on every team. That is a leader of a team decision.
I for one have made that decision for TRON and our team is at 19 out of 20 spots full.

One way I am looking at 'shuffling' things up is to drop players that have not played an official in past 6 months (or some time frame) and thereby allowing spaced to recruit more active or new players onto an active team. Because of good history and I like my mates I will be sending them messages letting them know to message me if they want back on and do officials again. If players don't want to play officials, there is no point being on a team, they can Fun Match without being on a team.

These are choices of team leaders.
I am against forcing leaders to take on players they don't want.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by llrr » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:45 pm

I think ccb raises some good points and valid issues. Unfortunately I feel like this is a direct side effect of a lack of players in the league. We have experienced players, and very new players. There's hardly anything in between. If there were more players the gaps between skill levels wouldn't be as big. It also goes to show that despite being seemingly a simple game, bz has a very high skill ceiling when it comes to the league. A lot of people can be playing for years and aren't becoming elite.

My personal opinion is this: activity and the points system for teams are currently meaningless for the league

The reason is that currently nobody cares much about the team points and who's above who. 10yrs ago the rankings mattered, but today everyone just wants a good, competitive match, whilst having SOME form of ranking so that people feel rewarded and will try their best in the match (unlike fms). The recent activity spike I've been driving has resulted in many offis where we offi'ed for the sake of offing, for the aciivity. Who cares about if we'd have a chance or not in the match. That's been the mentality.

For the above reason, I propose a radical overhaul of the league. We dissolve ALL teams, and players are ranked individually (like the elo system in 1v1). Then, anyone can match with anyone against anyone. When an offi finishes, the average elo of both teams will be taken into account, and each player on the winning team will gain equal elo whilst each player on the losing team will lose equal elo.

It doesn't have to be elo, but this kind of ranking system is used in many team based games like Dota 2 (MMR). We just end up having a rankings list of all players in the league instead. Btw, this individual rankings system can be applied now along with the team rankings. However, it's not as effective or flexible as players are stuck matching with their teammates. Dissolving teams will allow everyone to match with whoever they want.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:53 pm

@indy, no one is saying oh we are going to force players to consolidate teams. But if one team doesn't do it what's preventing admins from doing it?

Tron: Indy and bunthy

Now bertman is an admin why doesn't he leave tron and create his own team?

Team B: bertman hogfish and firing squad

All you have hit on was oh we aren't going to tell players who plays with who and that's it. So why don't the admins take the lead and start creating the teams and players can follow suit? If one team stays put so be it, no one will match that super team but atleast we would have 4-5 balanced teams. And those 4-5 teams can match each other while that super team sits there bored.

the answer shouldn't be oh since we can't split players up we aren't going to take any action, because reading these replies nothing has been suggested except for llrr...
Last edited by click click boom on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:58 pm

Active admins:

Team A: qd and consti. ebert, mr toast, 02345
Team B: Indy and bunthy, frimouse,
Team c: bertman shuist and etigah, gort,
Team D: kierra, mopar, hotshot, nth, blinky/Chris, metro, veranderon,
Team E: llrr, ccb, dead turtle, rabbit, runruns,

Now we backfill the rest we ask the remaining players to join teams, we have now created 5 balanced teams...

It's not that hard folks. Your making this into a soup sandwich..

we delete all the inactive teams and we keep Team A,B,C,D, and E open for players to back fill.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by macsforme » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:17 pm

If my team was dissolved, I'll tell you right now I would try to reunite with the same players. It takes a long time to learn your partners' playing styles. I've matched a lot with etigah, quantum dot, and smchaha, and those matches were an investment of time and energy. We're not a dominating team, but we're a team nonetheless. I wouldn't mind working with a new teammate who is dedicated and ready to learn, but I wouldn't want to be thrown into a pool of strangers.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:50 am

Consti: I've Played a long time and I have put many hours into teammates too.. I've Skyped, practiced/trained and done it all. I think right now the league needs players all to sacrifice something. I wouldn't want to play with all noobs but maybe with 1 or 2 other preferred players could work like in my example above. What can you do for the league? Sometimes putting are personal preferences to the side and a compromise would be best for everyone. It isn't a win win for everyone.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:07 am

Consti: you have done a lot for the game and league, we wouldn't be where we are with your dedication along with a few others. Unfortunately the league is at a point when we all must sacrifice a little. What if llrr didn't have this team where would these players be joining? He is a strong player so is able to hold many players up in matches to prevent blow outs, essentially some of these players would just quit. What would we do if rhapsody didn't create his team with new players a year ago?, or myself with Indy when he was newer prior to him being an admin with runruns. This is a community problem we are facing and it shouldn't be up to 1 or 2 people to fix it. You are not the only one that wants to play with experienced teammates, I am sure every player wants to...

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by llrr » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:12 am

Ok, just to be clear, CCB and I are proposing completely different ideas. I'm not too sure about your idea ccb because it either requires the council to force allocation of players amongst teams, or teams/current players are willing to take on new players to have a mix in every team. As Indy has said previously, I don't think either will work because in the first instance, admins would never force players on teams when the team doesn't want those players, and in the second instance, if players wanted to take on new players to create a mix as Indy and I have done, they would have done it already. Not doing so shows that they're reluctant to do this and I don't see any way to change this at all. Whether it is current team leaders or admins taking the initiative is still the same thing. The admins want to have fun they don't want to be carrying the game and its responsibilities on their shoulders.

I still think my idea is not bad, and it caters to everybody and solves alot of issues. The best part is, it involves a change in format of the league, which is something the council can act upon, and nothing is directly forced upon the players. Why I say this? As follows:

If all teams are dissolved and the ranking is purely based upon players then..

1. Increased activity - don't have to wait for a teammate to come online to do an offi
2. You still have the option to match with whoever you want to (which is something const just pointed out). You can still match with your favourite people in the game if that is what you wish.
3. Due to the very limited number of active players, this will allow many players to match with people they've never played with before.
4. Ranking becomes meaningful again. People will want to get higher ELO/MMR whatever it is we will use. People want to see themselves higher up on the ladder.
5. For the pros who don't care about their ranking. They can still help/volunteer to match with new players to teach them.
6. As elo increase/decrease for each match will be team based, it promotes players to try their best for each other.
7. elo will be calculated based upon the average strength of the team. If one team is much higher than the other, then the elo gain and loss is minimal. This would be similar to how the team scoring currently works and in 1v1.
8. The league website will simply report all matches as red vs purple or whatever it is like now. We replace the teams page with a player rankings list (think tennis).

Edit: Just wanted to add to further clarify my point..

The current ladder is the following:

Bad Company 1465
Ap3x 1268
Firebirds 1236
Serene Grace 1217
TRON 1209
Minimalist 1194
ForestForce 1108

Right now, if let's say SG matches TRON. TRON has absolutely no urgency or need to move up the ladder above SG. Similarly, BC just wants a good match. They don't care if they lose 40pts if they lose to a team in the 1200s. SG vs Mini? Nobody minds if Mini wins and SG goes below them. If nobody cares about the ladder then the points system for teams are largely meaningless right now. What does that mean for offis? Are we just offing just so the team's "activity" stat is not 0.00? If so, there is clearly an issue where activity and the points system no longer compliment each other. Moving to a new format will fix this.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:45 am

Llrr: I play ctf because it's a team based game which compliments both teammates. Sounds like that ranking system is based off of once own skills. I'll use etigah for an example he might not be the best 1v1 player but he's a damn good teammate who can grab the flag really well. I really have no need to want to improve my own zelo if that's the case I would stick to a 1v1 format.. just
My thoughts if I am understanding correctly.

I am not asking we use my format but something has to give, sitting here and talking about it isn't really an option. Heck with all teams didn't want to break up it would be nice if all would go out and recruit some new players for their respective team.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by llrr » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:32 am

The individual rankings format will still be dependent upon ctf scores and not individual scores. kills and deaths mean nothing. the elo changes will only be based upon CTF win/loss.

I don't know if you guys know about the Dota 2 MMR system. Basically in a 5v5 match, you're put in a team where your team average MMR is equal to the opponent's. Winning or losing a match will result in the whole team winning or losing MMR. It is not dependent upon your individual performance in the match, only the overall outcome. Similarly, in this case, it will only be dependent upon the ctf score, and not whether you have a good kdr or not.

Edit: Just thought of another example. Think tennis but doubles. You win and lose together with your partner but your rankings are affected individually. The doubles rankings for tennis isn't in pairs but is still in individuals. This way you will want to increase your own elo if you're a competitive player, because it shows that you're a good league player, not that you're a good 1v1 player.

I think that's what we're truly missing. When the league was very active, it was because of how competitive it was. We've lost a lot of that now. The new format can bring the competition back. Hence, "league".

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by Monster » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:41 pm

I just read up on this thread, here are my thoughts:
Ccb, llrr: I appreciate your efforts in trying to help the league grow again and I share the hope that, even if the game dies, the league can survive. The problem Ccb addresses is a temporary one imo. It might resolve itself given time for players to play enough to become better. On the other hand I agree with the notion that we might not have that time and that activity could decline again if no action is taken. In comparison I like llrrs idea better since it is more radical and in its otherness bound to have some effect on the league. Ccbs suggestion might work too, but is tied to human efforts and even if players are willing to oblige to the idea in the beginning nobody can tell when ppl will lose their motivation again.
As I said, I like llrrs idea but one problem comes to mind immediately:
1. How would 2/4 ins work? Wouldn't it mess with elo calculations? And how much points should one be able to gain from playing the last 10 mins of a 30 min match.

Another possibility (which has been suggested before) is to have both, team and individual ranking. Matches between players would work as llrr suggested. In addition matches between teams and matches between teams and players are allowed and result in points for both, team and individual ranking.
To clarify, the following scenarios would be possible:
Tron vs BC - results in points for teams and individuals
Tron vs llrr(SG) & Monster(BC) - results in points for Tron and individual points for all players, not for BC or SG
R3 & ccb vs Llrr & Monster - results in individual points, no points for teams.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:28 pm

See I'm not a big fan of individual ranking.. I feel like I'm ranking up my personal tank in a team game. I don't play for my own stats.

If we did elo statistic for personal skill I am not opposed to running that stat line, but if that's the case delete all teams and create teams just A and B and or C for players to join so we have all large teams we can offi with.. and we could possibly switch up those teams every few months.

And then what we could do is run more frequent tournaments than we do now.. that would promote the old style while having the new style all at the same time.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:46 pm

After further brain storming I'm thinking my second idea could work rather well..

All players remain in their current clan.
All players are split up to A,, B, and C or maybe just Team A for a general pool
What this does it allows team a to match team b incase there is no suitable clans around
Or
Team A can match Bad company a strong team, it will allow many players to team up to combat tougher teams

example: there are not many 3s or 4s offis being played but often chris, miro, zaa and monster are all online, if i wanted to 4s match them i would have to match with many inexperienced teammates, so what could be done is I could play vs them while being in team A

What we do is scale the points towards a win if team a beats bad company or if team bad company beats weak opponents in team a not as many points are awarded to the winner.. one way to figure out a scaling formula would be by using a player elo rating.

This allows friends to continue to play with friends and when players don't have mates around doesn't stop a clan from moving up the ladder due to no matches.

we rotate teams every so often and base it off of elo and activity to balance team A and B..


Calculate elo by, win %, kill/death, captures, how
Many times you kill flag runner, etc..

Elo will be capped so it prevents certain players from show boating and trying to obtain new levels which would take away from the CTF experience.

I don't see any cons to this idea.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by NTH » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:58 am

I'm active but only in my daytime, adding me to a different team doesn't mean I will match any more than I can now. Something else has to change, I would need to become more active in the evening/night time or some of you will have to wake up around 4/5 am to come find me.

We will never see the late 90's / early 2000's of the DU/GU league for that to happen we would need an influx of around 50 new players a month and a retention of 75% (I made those numbers up but you get the point). Not so long ago merging the leagues was the best idea that came out of the melting pot, whilst it does for a temporary amount of time increase activity and renew some players it doesn't get us back to the heady days of league activity. I'm not saying you shouldn't try but ask yourself what are you attempting to achieve is it 1 or 2 matches a day or 20+ a day. We have always had an imbalance in the league, so perhaps we need a different measurement or handicap system.

CCB can you just bullet point what you want to achieve from this merge please so that I fully understand the desired outcome.

Edit: just seen this post viewtopic.php?f=114&t=19469 which makes seems on the face of it to address activity.
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Only you controls the length of time between the two.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by llrr » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:48 am

click click boom wrote:After further brain storming I'm thinking my second idea could work rather well..

All players remain in their current clan.
All players are split up to A,, B, and C or maybe just Team A for a general pool
What this does it allows team a to match team b incase there is no suitable clans around
Or
Team A can match Bad company a strong team, it will allow many players to team up to combat tougher teams

example: there are not many 3s or 4s offis being played but often chris, miro, zaa and monster are all online, if i wanted to 4s match them i would have to match with many inexperienced teammates, so what could be done is I could play vs them while being in team A

What we do is scale the points towards a win if team a beats bad company or if team bad company beats weak opponents in team a not as many points are awarded to the winner.. one way to figure out a scaling formula would be by using a player elo rating.

This allows friends to continue to play with friends and when players don't have mates around doesn't stop a clan from moving up the ladder due to no matches.

we rotate teams every so often and base it off of elo and activity to balance team A and B..


Calculate elo by, win %, kill/death, captures, how
Many times you kill flag runner, etc..

Elo will be capped so it prevents certain players from show boating and trying to obtain new levels which would take away from the CTF experience.

I don't see any cons to this idea.

Sound off in
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I think this idea still only tries to solve the activity, and balanced offi issue, but does not promote any more competition within the league. What would be the meaning of where the generic teams are ranked? In general the current team ranking system is not actually promoting players to try to increase their team elo because nobody cares right now about it.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:39 pm

Llrr: my idea does promote more competition. Yesterday Miro, zaa, monster and kajo were all online. With our current format no one could even match up 4vs4 to them skill wise. With our current format there wasn't even a team on while they were online.. so my idea solves many things.

Team A matches bad company and can climb the ladder vs Team B or the rest of the league

A balanced official match could take place because there was enough skilled players online to 4v4 bad company, I was, shuist, etigah

Bad company has a chance to play with their respected friends and are able to compete in a fair official, I mention this because there was a lot of gripes about people leaving there friends and changing teams so that solves this issue.

Bad company is allowed to contribute to their team activity

Bad company is able to work on their 4vs4 team work and so would Team A


All players have an elo rating so they can work to better it if that's their motive, if bad
Company matches Team A and team A is made up of poor elo rating players Bad Company doesn't gain as many valuable points.

So essentially we will now have fair officials and more officials being played. So if certain players come and go like NTH there is a good system in place that will continue to allow the free flow of play. There could be either 1 or 2 ladder, I would prefer one so there is some bragging rights to playing under Team A/B..

There might not be a lot of pros but there are no cons to it, it allows our current clans to remain and it allows our current clans to continue to recruit new players and get better.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by Monster » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:58 pm

I think both ideas aren't so different. Llrrs suggestion does everything yours does, but only adds individual ranking as an addition to team ranking which is as far as I'm concerned a great thing to have.

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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by click click boom » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:57 pm

So llrr and myself are brain storming ways to create some more activity, balance official matches, and have larger official matches. Please see the idea below:
-------------------------------------------
Kind of combing llrr' idea with mine here we go!!! :)


Bad company proposes a match: miro, Zaa and monster

Vs

Llrr (sg), kierra (ff) and etigah (minimalist)

Results are the 3 individuals win

All players will have a personal elo something similar to the 1vs1 league. Elo's will be effected, since the team of 3 randoms won their elo will rise
Not only does their elo rise but they earn points for their respective clans.
Since they were from 3 different clans their points can be averaged out and allocated appropriately..

The way you do this is with the current formula

bad company vs min=min win+-12
Bad company vs sg=sg win+-10
Bad company vs ff= ff win +-15

You take the average of the 3 which is +-12.3

That then +-12.3 is dispersed over the 3 winning teams
Sg gets 4.1
Ff gets 4.1
Min gets 4.1

Bad company losses -12.3 but the sg,ff, and min don't gain as much ground since they didn't match with their own teammates from their clan

If bad company wins their elo goes up and their clan win points and move up the ladder as well.

We won't need a team A,B, or C since all players can play alone but represent their clan and can earn points for their clans. Since those players are matching alone they won't win as many points as they would have if they play as 3 of their own clan members but yet they still get some points so it makes it worth while.


If no clans are on and just solo players for example:

Ccb (sg) and qd(min)
Vs
Kierra (ff) and miro(bad company)

If team ccb wins both sg and minimalist will gain points in the ladder and bad company/ forest force would lose points.

This allows for even officials, more officials, and LARGER officials not this 2v2 crap that's always occurring.

We will do this the same we do now with the /offi command

If no teams are willing to effect their elo or clans points you can do a regular fun match with the /fm command.

Monster
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Re: consolidation of teams 2.0

Post by Monster » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:17 pm

"Elo's will be effected, since the team of 3 randoms won their elo will rise
Not only does their elo rise but they earn points for their respective clans."
And that is exactly what should not happen. Players should not be able to gain points for their teams without playing with their teammates as it reduces team membership to absurdity. I think llrrs idea alone is a very good one and tweaking it in this manner does not help but dilute it's intentions. Still, if we can't have individual rankings introduced this would be better than no change

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