Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:14 pm

Monster wrote:I agree with miro's point which is why I suggested the following earlier:
-Implement an individual ladder next to the team ladder.
-players will gain/lose individual points on any official match they play respective to the average elon of their opponents.
-matches between individuals and teams are allowed
-matches between teams are allowed
-matches between individuals only are allowed
-a mix of individuals can never earn/lose points for their teams
-teams can gain points for their teams if they play vs other teams or vs individuals (latter calculation might be problematic)

So all in all the latest version of what ccb outlined, minus the effect on teamrankings for mixes of individual players
I'm not sure if it's a good idea for a team vs individuals offi to result in the team increasing team ELO. It is not a direct match between two teams, so how does increasing team ELO make sense in this case?

I think we should keep team ELO changes exclusive to offis where both colors are of players from two teams. So we end up with 2 types of offis:

Individual offis: Random players vs Random players, Team vs Random players will be considered individual offis and do not affect team ELO
Team offis; Team vs Team, individual ELO changes as well as team ELO

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:19 pm

Also, in chatting on bzflag with sn0w_m0nkey about llrr's post:
[->sn0w_m0nkey] i'm all for new ideas...testing the waters
[sn0w_m0nkey->] its what bzflag is about in my view
[sn0w_m0nkey->] word up, its encouraging the diversity of ideas that fosters innovation and success
[sn0w_m0nkey->] u can represent me :)
[->sn0w_m0nkey] even on allejo's idea for AHOD
[sn0w_m0nkey->] for real
sn0w_m0nkey: trying out new ideas and concepts is important to the game for sure
sn0w_m0nkey: otherwise the game would die
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:24 pm

@kierra I don't understand how you can be against team matching when not as many mates are online but be interested in just a player elo system in a team game format. There are many games when 1 player can earn their team points. And no it wouldn't be just 1 player doing all the work for matches. The points are divided upon a win or loss so not like you are going to run the table in 1 week. If everyone couldn't agree on individuals matching you simply make the rule that 1 team has to be a clan and the other team can be made up of individuals. I wouldn't just nix the whole idea there are alternatives. No offense but if this league came down to a 1v1 league format I probably wouldn't play.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:29 pm

ccb: upon thinking about it, i actually wholeheartedly agree with that individual matches should not affect team ELO. My reasoning is as follows:

1. Players are playing for their individual rankings and not for their team.
2. A player can increase their team ELO without ever matching with their teammates, which makes no sense.
3. The team ELO rankings should reflect the relative rankings of the TEAMS. This cannot occur unless two teams match against each other.

I've therefore decided to incorporate their idea and update the rankings logistics.

To summarize:

1. A team's ELO will only be affected *if and only if* the match is played between two teams. In this instance, individual ELO is also updated as it keeps track of all wins and losses between individuals.
2. Any other combination, whether it's all individuals, or team vs individuals, will result in only individual ELO being changed.

I've also edited the first post in this thread and added into the FAQ that FMs are NOT affected in any way, shape or form. Playing FMs will not result in any ELO changes for teams or individuals.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Monster » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:52 pm

I feel as if we are missing a big opportunity to rekindle interest in team rankings if we don't allow teams to gain/lose teampoints matching vs individuals. The reason I lost interest in the league was because I could never find offis and if I found one it was seldom balanced or vs players I cared about. Allowing teams to climb the ladder by matching vs individuals could highly increase the noumber of offis and add excitement for all participating players of the respective match which would otherwise have been just another fm.

EDIT:
This would also cater to all groups:
Those who aren't interested in individual ranking have an easier time finding offis.
Those who care for individual ranking have a better match with players who are more focused.
Those who don't want their individual performance to affect team rankings can still help others to an offi without the fear of losing their teams points
Last edited by Monster on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:54 pm

click click boom wrote:@kierra I don't understand how you can be against team matching when not as many mates are online but be interested in just a player elo system in a team game format. There are many games when 1 player can earn their team points. And no it wouldn't be just 1 player doing all the work for matches. The points are divided upon a win or loss so not like you are going to run the table in 1 week. If everyone couldn't agree on individuals matching you simply make the rule that 1 team has to be a clan and the other team can be made up of individuals. I wouldn't just nix the whole idea there are alternatives. No offense but if this league came down to a 1v1 league format I probably wouldn't play.
Clan elo should change when the actual clan members match.....not me & llrr vs another mixed team and have that impact FF standings. I don't support that at all.

I can live with or without the idea of [FF](as a clan) vs a mixed team and elo's being affected for all participating...individual and [FF] clan elo. Either one works for me.
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Monster » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:59 pm

kierra wrote:I can live with or without the idea of [FF](as a clan) vs a mixed team and elo's being affected for all participating...individual and [FF] clan elo. Either one works for me.
Same, but I think we would miss a great opportunity without that option.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:13 pm

Monster wrote:
kierra wrote:I can live with or without the idea of [FF](as a clan) vs a mixed team and elo's being affected for all participating...individual and [FF] clan elo. Either one works for me.
Same, but I think we would miss a great opportunity without that option.
I just mean that it's not a hill I would die on. I don't have a problem with clan vs mixed team. It's a doable idea.
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by etigah » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:21 pm

Agree with Monster. My opinion is to treat a team like a unit and only use team score for calculating elo for both the team and the team players when they play under its name. Players on teams can play freely in mixed (dynamic) teams, but in this case, only their own elo is involved.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:38 pm

Happy to change the ranking logistics to cater for this if that's what everyone seems to be agreeing upon. Will be updating it soon.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:57 pm

Ok, latest update from alot of player feedback.

The following format is now implemented:

1. Individuals vs Individuals
Individual ELO is updated

2. Team vs Individuals
Individual ELO is updated
In addition, the color playing as a team has their team ELO updated

3. Team vs Team
Individual ELO is updated
Both teams' ELO are updated

Please see attached the new rankings logistics to see how this works.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by lep » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:52 pm

I like the idea. Now that there has been decent discussion, my questions about how the league would retain the significance of teams has been answered (it was the only flaw I could point out). I was skeptical at first about how the "team" aspect would be kept, but with all the discussion now, I think this is a great idea.

Very clever and well thought out, llrr.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Pam » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:24 pm

That's what I was thinking. If there are only 2 official teams on, but one team wants to play with individuals they know instead in a "mixed official", doesn't that ruin the team vs team advantage that new teams need? Nobody matches newer players, no matter how good they are, if they can instead match people they already know. I feel like having officials be teams only has been the key to new teams starting up. This dynamic is the only reason anybody ever matched me. "I don't know you/ you're not very good, but I want an official." kind of mindset.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:28 pm

@monster we agree 100% and this is a great opportunity

@kierra if inviduals vs individuals is a no go but you agree that invidiudals vs clan can be acceptable I'm all for a compromise.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:55 pm

click click boom wrote:@kierra if inviduals vs individuals is a no go but you agree that invidiudals vs clan can be acceptable I'm all for a compromise.
Just to be perfectly clear....as long as the clan agrees to official.
for example, I can see a fm with mdskpr & I(we're both [FF]) vs some other ppl and it still being a fun match.
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:18 pm

Correct like any other fm or offi, players will play if agreed on teams.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:13 am

Feedback from Bertman.. copy pasted from pm.

Here are my thoughts on the proposal. While it looks good on paper, I do have a few concerns. First, as I have stated before, I am against any proposed handicaps being implemented in any form. I think that this will hurt the development of new and less skilled players as a whole, creating a hopeless environment for them as far as getting better at the game. To handicap better teams or players means that yes it levels the playing field some, but it doesn't teach the new or less skilled player how to be competitive against those better than themselves. As far as the rating system, I as a newer and less skilled player and just as you (llrr) mentioned in a earlier post, don't care to have a number attached to my name indicating that. I am sure there are more players that feel the same way. I was told while asking questions one time the "confidence is key". I think in some instances this can be harmful to a number of players confidence. This is also a great way to keep newer and less skilled players in obs, as the intermediate to better players would surely dominate the field during most of the popular playing times, with a lot less chance of the less skilled being able to get in. The intermediate to better players would then have their ratings to worry about and protecting it by making sure that the less skilled players only match against their own skill level or less or not match at all. I also have stated before my concerns with this sort of thing, because it would hurt development of players in my mind if they don't get to match against better and much better players that often. Then there is the part where player A from one team and Player B from another team is on the same team in a match. If we are going to do this, why even have teams? This means that the rating for a team is not achieved by the team but individual players. If there are no teams then what is the purpose of a league. I like everyone else would like to see bigger and better quality matches. I think that the answer to this is to let the captains work on their teams a bit. SG has 21 members with over half of them consistently active. This is due to good work on the captains part of recruiting. I was pushing for this before the team was even formed. The other 6 active teams have 3 to 6 consistently active players on them. I think it would be good to focus on this and continue to fill these teams with active players. That is what has gotten us this far slowly. We are actually having official matches again where for a long time that didn't happen. This started slowly before SG and the things that you put in place through recruiting and pushing for offis has increased the amount of official matches. I am not for reallocating teams, but filling them with active players. The proposed system in my mind would increase activity for the medium-skilled players and up, and hurt the activity of newer and less skill players OR hurt their development into better players. Mentoring programs, practice/teaching sessions, etc. have all been discussed but not implemented successfully to this point. I am strongly for steps like these. It would help better achieve the goals, and build a better foundation for a long lasting league. This sort of thing does take time and energy, that seemingly the best players don't care to provide. They just want to play and not be bored. I admire the effort to come up with a better way, but this all seems like a band-aid that will result in the slowed growth due to not being able to retain the newer people and loss of the older players to boredom because at some point the same teams will always be winning until someone else wants to change everything again to make it different. We are still early in what I feel can be an actual take off of LU. To rip it apart and change everything seems a bit unproductive.

Just my thoughts..
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:34 am

Re Bert:

Firstly I agree with not having a handicap system. It is difficult to implement one that is good, effective, and achieves the desired outcome. It is also incredibly difficult to determine how much a handicap should be depending on who's playing. I definitely do not advocate for one.

As for the rankings system. I will try to respond to each part of your feedback separately Bert.

"As far as the rating system, I as a newer and less skilled player and just as you (llrr) mentioned in a earlier post, don't care to have a number attached to my name indicating that. I am sure there are more players that feel the same way."

If this is the case, then there is no reason to care about the new rankings system. Just like currently where it is highly unlikely the same players would care about the current team rankings system.

"I was told while asking questions one time the "confidence is key". I think in some instances this can be harmful to a number of players confidence. This is also a great way to keep newer and less skilled players in obs, as the intermediate to better players would surely dominate the field during most of the popular playing times, with a lot less chance of the less skilled being able to get in. The intermediate to better players would then have their ratings to worry about and protecting it by making sure that the less skilled players only match against their own skill level or less or not match at all."

IMO there are two types of players in the league, the ones who want to get better, and the ones who want to just play FMs without caring about getting better, nor care about rankings. For the former, they will not be so easily deterred by a low ELO, just like in any sport. Those who compete in the sport but aren't very good yet have low rankings (think tennis), but they don't give up so easily. It wouldn't be any different in this league. If you care about your skills, getting better, and improving yourself, then the new rankings system won't stop you from doing that. For people who won't care about it, then it doesn't matter if a new, individual ranking is added, they still won't care anyway.

For the last sentence in this statement. I think we all have to realize that in order to have "balanced offis", that is exactly what has to happen. How do we not have balanced offis right now? By having anybody match anybody for the sake of activity. The only way to have a balanced offi is if people with similar skill levels match against each other. This however does not exclude players from matching against better players. In the new system, newer, weaker players are still free to match vs better players, and IMO better players will more often than not agree. Why? Because they're unlikely to lose and hence winning = more elo for them, so to the better players there isn't much to lose from doing this. In fact, right now pros don't actually want to match noobs anyways, because it's boring for them. For them, a 20mins match where the outcome is guaranteed 10-0 is a waste of time. You can't blame them for feeling that way.

"I also have stated before my concerns with this sort of thing, because it would hurt development of players in my mind if they don't get to match against better and much better players that often."

I hope my previous response address this as it's the same comment as the previous one.

"Then there is the part where player A from one team and Player B from another team is on the same team in a match. If we are going to do this, why even have teams? This means that the rating for a team is not achieved by the team but individual players. If there are no teams then what is the purpose of a league."

This is the whole point of the proposal. It allows anyone to match with anyone else, thus there doesn't need to be a teammate online in order to match. We still have teams, and team ELO is changed IF AND ONLY IF the match is between players from two teams, i.e. a team vs team match, OR one color of made up of players from a team, i.e. team vs individuals match (team ELO for the teams the individuals are on would not change). Please read the original post and my attached rankings logistics. Team ELO does not get modified by individuals matching with each other (that was the previous idea, based upon player feedback it has been scrapped).

"I think that the answer to this is to let the captains work on their teams a bit. SG has 21 members with over half of them consistently active. This is due to good work on the captains part of recruiting. I was pushing for this before the team was even formed. The other 6 active teams have 3 to 6 consistently active players on them. I think it would be good to focus on this and continue to fill these teams with active players. That is what has gotten us this far slowly. We are actually having official matches again where for a long time that didn't happen. This started slowly before SG and the things that you put in place through recruiting and pushing for offis has increased the amount of official matches. I am not for reallocating teams, but filling them with active players. The proposed system in my mind would increase activity for the medium-skilled players and up, and hurt the activity of newer and less skill players OR hurt their development into better players. Mentoring programs, practice/teaching sessions, etc. have all been discussed but not implemented successfully to this point. I am strongly for steps like these. It would help better achieve the goals, and build a better foundation for a long lasting league. This sort of thing does take time and energy, that seemingly the best players don't care to provide. They just want to play and not be bored. I admire the effort to come up with a better way, but this all seems like a band-aid that will result in the slowed growth due to not being able to retain the newer people and loss of the older players to boredom because at some point the same teams will always be winning until someone else wants to change everything again to make it different. We are still early in what I feel can be an actual take off of LU. To rip it apart and change everything seems a bit unproductive."

I honestly think that this is absolutely not the way. For several reasons:

1. It requires players to be interested in taking on mixed players in their teams, which many as you've seen are not.

2. As many have said, people cannot force players or active players to fill different teams in order to spread the activity.

3. Due to team vs team limitations, very few offis are balanced.

4. To be honest, I'm not sure how active the league was before I came back, but I felt like I single handedly revived it by creating SG. Now, I'm constantly online for hours a day right now. I've participated in 90% of our offis. What happens when I become less active again? I think most people can see that the current "activity" is fake. It is upheld by a few players (less than 5-6), and it required us to play offis "for the sake of it", without caring about team balance. To me, this really isn't a solution, to just wait for people to pick it up. Because of the waiting the league has been dying.

5. We need to not just think about activity, and helping newer players. Your thoughts seem to be biased towards that. We need retention of older players as well. Retention cannot happen if they all get bored. This is happening because there is no real competition left in the league right now.

6. I personally feel that the new system is hardly a "band-aid" as you've suggested, just by seeing the amount of positive feedback I'm getting from just about everyone who's active. The system is an addition to what we have now. It allows offis to be played with anybody. It allows FMs to still happen. It promotes competition. It still allows people who don't care about their rankings to play without caring. It allows people who want to get better challenge themselves against stronger opponents. It is not ripping apart anything, because the current system will still exist. You can still have team vs team offis that affect team ELO just lie now. It just adds something extra to retain older players and promote a bit of challenge between players.

I get what you're trying to say Bert, but I feel like what you suggest is just simply too conservative. If i become less active right now the league will hardly have any offi's again. Just look at the offi's page. 99% of it is vs SG, and 99% of the SG games have me in it. See what I mean? The league isn't as healthy as you think right now. What's happening right now with the increased activity etc. that's what I would call "band-aid".

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:44 am

Ok, first let's understand bertman's history his callsign was registered 2 years ago and maybe been a league player for a year and a half. So Bertman doesn't know what the league ever look like when it was active he just saw its current state in mind.

This league has been at its current state for years. Captains have been recruiting players and training players for years. We have been trying this method for years with no luck. How many more years are we going to continue to try it? It's clearly a failed concept. The league has evolved and its players we need to change with it. Stop having false hope and expecting every captain to recruit. It's nice if they do but we can't expect that to happen.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:30 pm

Hi everyone. I just want to update as to what's been happening with this proposal.

The original post, as well as the attached document has been updated to accommodate changes based upon player feedback. The current, proposed format is by and large liked by the majority of the community. It is therefore put forward to the LU council to be accepted so we can start working on it. When I get confirmation from the LU council for its acceptance, I will let everyone know.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:24 pm

I like how you have a scenario 3 that allows 1 team on a clan vs indivuals but don't like only if the clan team wins will earn points. If we don't allow individuals vs individuals and just a clan vs indivuals with team points on the line it won't take to much away from the objective. That is the only thing I don't like in your proposal. I can understand why indivuals vs indivuals can be bad but not clan vs indivuals, I think more good comes out of it than bad. That's the only change I would like see, but leave it up to the powers that be.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by macsforme » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:00 pm

I'm trying to wrap my head around this proposal... I know NTH asked this before, but how is this different from just tracking individual performance during fm's? And if there is a significant difference, how is this idea superior to that? Do we really need a third type of match?

If points are gained or lost strictly based on wins or losses of matches, I have concerns about the viability of such a method. For example, I would consider myself to be above average in skill (you may or may not agree), but my match win ratio is only 46%. For whatever that reason is (maybe I tend to get paired with less experienced players, or I tend to accept more difficult odds for the challenge of it), do you think the balance of points risked in each match would allow for players like me to be successful?

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:28 pm

What do you mean by "successful" in this context, Constitution?

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Orange Peanut » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:21 pm

I was thinking along the same lines as Const, I think. I'm not sure if this all checks out because I don't know exactly how the elo is calculated. If we assume that all matches are even and that everyone wins 50% of their matches, will their elos not be all the same? In a game like League of Legends, you play against people your skill level, then once you are able to beat people on your skill level, you move up a tier, so you are playing people your level again. The difference with this is we are not always playing people of our skill level, so people of low skill level can still beat people of high skill level if they are on a good team. It seems the only time you will really be able to gain a lot of points is when you have made quick improvements and people still undervalue your skill. One other thing I thought of was an extreme situation: let's say two good players haven't played in the recent reset of elos, if the two good players with low elos play against two good players with high elos and the low elo guys win, won't the high elos lose a ton of points? They didn't lose to someone way below their skill level, but that is what the elos suggest. I understand I might be completely wrong here, so feel free to correct me, I didn't put as much thought into this as I would like, but thought I would share at least.

Also, I would like to talk about 2ins. I'm not sure that they would fit very well into offis. We have had 2ins in offis before, but I hardly saw that happen. In fms right now, 2ins can be very unbalanced and if one team is winning, even by just one cap, they will always put the stronger player on the losing team, so the team that was going to win will now lose, possibly. Also, if a team is down by a couple caps, nobody is going to want to 2in onto that team because they are almost guaranteed to lose points, depending on the situation of course. I think the most fair thing to do would be not allow any 2ins during offis, or only allow it something like before 5 minutes into the match, if they want to even the teams. The teams should be evened out before the match starts.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by etigah » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:28 pm

My understanding is that points are not given based on absolute win/lose ratio, but instead on the final match score and the average elo of players participating.

To take this a step further, I would like to see the system estimate the expected final score and that's where the line should be drawn for calculating points, for example:

Team A 1000 vs Team B 1400
Team B is expected to win 3-0, and this is announced to all players before match begins
Actual end result is A 0 - B 1
Despite losing, team A gets points because they beat the expected result

Problem is players in the weaker team may turn too much to defense, not sure if that's a bad thing. But it can make matches more competitive.
Orange Peanut wrote:One other thing I thought of was an extreme situation: let's say two good players haven't played in the recent reset of elos, if the two good players with low elos play against two good players with high elos and the low elo guys win, won't the high elos lose a ton of points? They didn't lose to someone way below their skill level, but that is what the elos suggest. I understand I might be completely wrong here, so feel free to correct me, I didn't put as much thought into this as I would like, but thought I would share at least.
I think this will have some effect initially, but probably rankings will be representative over time. I don't know, it might be a good idea to set initial default elo for players manually, so that there are maybe 3 levels (1100, 1200, 1300) and players are ranked in one of those 3 levels. It can be a bit touchy.
Orange Peanut wrote:Also, I would like to talk about 2ins. I'm not sure that they would fit very well into offis. We have had 2ins in offis before, but I hardly saw that happen. In fms right now, 2ins can be very unbalanced and if one team is winning, even by just one cap, they will always put the stronger player on the losing team, so the team that was going to win will now lose, possibly. Also, if a team is down by a couple caps, nobody is going to want to 2in onto that team because they are almost guaranteed to lose points, depending on the situation of course. I think the most fair thing to do would be not allow any 2ins during offis, or only allow it something like before 5 minutes into the match, if they want to even the teams. The teams should be evened out before the match starts.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea to disallow 2 ins after match starts, or perhaps after first cap.

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