Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by alfa1 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:14 am

Just to be fair and just in case, the original idea was blinky/d*mns3xy's (AFAIK) and his intention was to make even teams for matches. See the edition on the first note: Making Even Teams.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:18 am

Just to be fair to blinky, ccb, llrr AND others present on servers: ccb's & llrr's concepts were discussed by both AND with other players on servers for several days before llrr took the initiative to bring the concept in written form to the public forum.
After much dialogue on servers and input here on this forum, we have a final product in the attachment in llrr's first post.

Let's not argue which came first the chicken or the egg.
I applaud llrr for diligently listening/lobbying with players, getting them to post and being patient to bring this idea to fruition. It was done with much input from many.....not a lone wolf accomplishment by any means.
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:24 pm

kierra wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:18 am
Just to be fair to blinky, ccb, llrr AND others present on servers: ccb's & llrr's concepts were discussed by both AND with other players on servers for several days before llrr took the initiative to bring the concept in written form to the public forum.
After much dialogue on servers and input here on this forum, we have a final product in the attachment in llrr's first post.

Let's not argue which came first the chicken or the egg.
I applaud llrr for diligently listening/lobbying with players, getting them to post and being patient to bring this idea to fruition. It was done with much input from many.....not a lone wolf accomplishment by any means.
Thank you, I am sure many had taken part in the discussion over many years it took someone throwing the idea together. LLRR had his idea and I had my own, at the end of the day LLRR saw some things in my idea he liked and vice versa. Kudos to LLRR for getting people to rally around his idea, if the community likes it I am all for it and hope it brings a positive change to the league. I did a lot of nagging and pissing and moaning to get where we are today. Not to be annoying but because I was adamant about something being done. I would like to thank all of you for taking the time to read the forums and bounce ideas of off each other. Everyone has a envision so it's difficult for us all to agree on one thing, but with compromise anything is possible!

see you on the field,
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by indy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:17 pm

Pleased to announce that Council approved the idea as posted on attachment as of April 13. Allejo and Alezakos will be responsible for its implementation.
-Indy

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by allejo » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:56 pm

You can follow the progress here: https://github.com/allejo/bzion/issues/71

As of yet, there is no official ETA.
Here's my personal website and my open source projects are available on GitHub; I work on a lot of cool things.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by slime » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:24 am

I'm late to the party as I see it's already been approved, but here's my feedback anyway from what I understand just reading the first post.

I think adding individual ELO to the league is a good idea. As long as teams and team official matches remain intact, I'm all for additional match options. I don't believe it will necessarily increase activity in general, but I think it adds another fun and competitive component to the league.

My only piece of constructive feedback is that I don't believe individual ELOs should reset after each proposed "season". It makes no sense to me to say player A is a 1700 ELO player one day, then a 1200 ELO player when the season resets. Having a perpetual ELO system would give a much more accurate depiction of a players actual skill level. If you want to award activity and prevent 'afk camping the top spot', you could award the 10 highest ELO players who played at least 1 match (or 5, 10, whatever) in a season - but don't completely reset the ELO. It in effect makes the rating itself pretty hollow IMPO.

Good idea llrr and whoever else had input, and good luck with the implementation to whoever is doing the background work.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:19 am

Thanks Indy and good work to everyone on making this proposal possible.

As far as I can tell there are two outstanding issues we still need to address.

1. How caps will affect ELOs (or no effect at all?)
2. How to prevent afk ELO camping without resetting the ELO per season.

For the first issue, I have a tier based idea - i.e. win by 1 cap - gain no extra elo, win by 2-4 caps, gain certain x bonus ELO, win by 5+ caps, gain certain y bonus ELO. This way does not encourage winning by huge margins as it offers no additional benefit.

For the second issue if there's any more input that would be great as I don't have a better idea just yet.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:05 am

Ok, on the subject of afk ELO camp top score issue, here is my suggestion:

We introduce a minimum activity level for each season. For example, 3 offis. If a player plays at least 3 offis during the season, their ELO at the end of the season carries into the next season and is not modified. If a player plays less than 3 offis, then they're considered "too inactive", and an ELO modification occurs.

The ELO modification will be +-x points at the end of the season, depending upon whether the player is below or above the default 1200 ELO. For example, for inactive players, each season they gain/lose 25pts of ELO until they reach 1200 then nothing happens after that.

This way, a player who goes inactive for one year will result in a +-100 ELO modification to whatever their ELO was when they stopped.

The system solves the afk camping ELO as follows:

1. Your ELO is not immediately reset to 1200 each season, therefore it does not discourage you to continue to match to gain ELO.
2. It encourages activity to keep your ELO rating.
3. The gain/loss should be sufficient to deter players from going active to camp ELO spots, but also promote regaining ELO once they come back from being inactive.

An example:

blinky gets to an ELO of 2000, then goes inactive for a year.

Assuming, 4 seasons per year, 3 months per season, when blinky gets back he will have an ELO of 1900, this is not too far from his original, and still shows that he's a very good player. He can resume matching to build upon the new ELO.

Similarly, llrr loses ELO til 900, then goes inactive for a year.

Same assumption as above, after one year, llrr's ELO becomes 1000. He can come back but his ELO is still not reset to the default, showing that he's still a noob.

Basically, when players go inactive, their ELO gradually moves towards the default 1200 over time, but is not instantly reset.

Players who are close to 1200, say Indy, who goes inactive at an ELO of 1250, for a year, will come back with an ELO of 1200.


For those of you who think that noobs will just stay inactive and not match to gain ELO, that's fine, because in a year they will only gain 100 ELO. Players can gain ELO much faster by winning matches, so it is of no benefit to sit in obs and do nothing. Players with incentive to improve will still match as they will gain ELO at a much faster rate than waiting for it to gain from inactivity.

Similarly, top players will need to continue to match to keep their high ELO ratings, or they could risk losing 25 ELO per season every season for being idle or afk. Besides, not playing = not having fun, so the whole system revolves around people who actually want to play. It's simply a measure against people becoming inactive due to life etc.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by alfa1 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:05 am

You made me think, llrr (and others) :) .

Individual skills:
kills skills (1vs1 ELO) + tactics skills (hard to meassure) = capturing skills (proposed llrr's ELO)
70/80% + 30/20% = 100%

Team's skills:
sum of individual capturing skills (sum of proposed llrr's individual ELOes) / amount of players = capturing skills (team's ELO)


(1) Are you saying, llrr, that team's ELO would be then the average of your proposed individual ELOes? Then, in the future, nowadays teams' ELOes would be deleted? Or both of them would be kept separated and at that time it would be decided (in example, if both values are similar)?

(2) Also, your proposed ELOes are not based on 1vs1 ones. It could be fixed with activity, though, on both leagues.

(3) If team vs individual matches would be adding points to one team and not decreasing points to another team, would this not affect teams' ELOes formule/general results (which are relative to each and every team)? They are different categories of teams. If this is the case (I am almost sure), this could be fixed just treating everybody as individuals. This could be affecting everything, tho. (The only advantage for the team would be getting experience together.) In the other case, it would be unfair (for individuals vs individuals), then, if when playing team vs team you would be giving points to individuals too. Giving ELO points twice would not be fair. At then end, we would have official fms as a new category of matches. Does not make very much sense for me; it would be against teams, I think: why would I play with my team if I can play individually and get a prize only for me?. If you need individual ELOes, go play 1vs1 :). If this is not the case: (4).

(4) Would allowing individuals' to offi not make teams' offies to dissapear or to reduce even more? Since the league is based on teams and you would be breaking teams, let's say. In example, nowadays there are lots of fms; in the future, there would not be lots of individual offies? I think people would or should always prefer to play in teams because they would be adding points to both their teams and to themselves.

(5) If player M plays 100 matches individually; and makes your proposed ELO on 2100; when he plays with his only teammate N, with your proposed ELO on 1200, making their team's ELO be 1650; would it represent a real value if they never played together? No, it would not. (It would be answered by (4) if it was valid, which I doubt.)

Well, IMHO, this new system doesn't make very much sense for me.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:18 am

Thanks for your input alpha. Sorry to hear that the new system won't be what you're looking for.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by macsforme » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:07 pm

Why not just have active versus inactive players and a certain threshold for activity, like we have already for teams? Sometimes the best solution is the simplest solution.

Also, I'd personally prefer that the margin of score difference in a match not be a factor in the rating. Continuing to play a match where you're being soundly beaten just to try to lose fewer points than otherwise sounds very demoralizing. We might see people quitting matches when the outcome becomes inevitable.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Constitution wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:07 pm
Why not just have active versus inactive players and a certain threshold for activity, like we have already for teams? Sometimes the best solution is the simplest solution.

Also, I'd personally prefer that the margin of score difference in a match not be a factor in the rating. Continuing to play a match where you're being soundly beaten just to try to lose fewer points than otherwise sounds very demoralizing. We might see people quitting matches when the outcome becomes inevitable.
Totally agree with Constitution! Definitely do not like/or want # of caps/ margin of score difference (call it what you will) to be a factor in ratings.
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:07 am

Constitution wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:07 pm
Why not just have active versus inactive players and a certain threshold for activity, like we have already for teams? Sometimes the best solution is the simplest solution.

Also, I'd personally prefer that the margin of score difference in a match not be a factor in the rating. Continuing to play a match where you're being soundly beaten just to try to lose fewer points than otherwise sounds very demoralizing. We might see people quitting matches when the outcome becomes inevitable.
Consti, the losing team does not lose any more points than normal. Only the winning team gets x number of bonus points for cap margin, and the limit is +5. Alternatively, what you suggest could also work. Seasonal leaders will only be based upon players who have played a certain number of official matches in that season, otherwise players are considered inactive.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by etigah » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:39 am

I'm with the opinion that player rating should not be affected by level of activity.
Constitution wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:07 pm
Also, I'd personally prefer that the margin of score difference in a match not be a factor in the rating. Continuing to play a match where you're being soundly beaten just to try to lose fewer points than otherwise sounds very demoralizing. We might see people quitting matches when the outcome becomes inevitable.
If a player wants to play casually they can play in fun matches. I don't know about others, but I find it way more demoralizing to play against a team who is obviously going easy on me.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:55 am

etigah wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:39 am
I'm with the opinion that player rating should not be affected by level of activity.
Constitution wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:07 pm
Also, I'd personally prefer that the margin of score difference in a match not be a factor in the rating. Continuing to play a match where you're being soundly beaten just to try to lose fewer points than otherwise sounds very demoralizing. We might see people quitting matches when the outcome becomes inevitable.
If a player wants to play casually they can play in fun matches. I don't know about others, but I find it way more demoralizing to play against a team who is obviously going easy on me.
I'd be happy to go with consti's idea of simply separating active players with inactive players then. The top 10 players from each season should be in the active players list only and not include inactive players sitting with high ELO but not matching.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Kenshin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:06 pm

I'm with Consti and kierra. I don't think cap difference should affect ELO. In my experience, players love to say they want the opponent to be pushing the entire game but when it actually happens to them they tend to lose that positive attitude. I know I personally don't enjoy running up the score by more than 3-4 caps if I don't think the opponent has a real chance of a comeback and many players tend to be pretty down on the game after losing by more than that margin

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by alfa1 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:55 pm

llrr wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:18 am
Thanks for your input alpha. Sorry to hear that the new system won't be what you're looking for.
llrr, did you take in count my points, my thoughts? You didn't answer me anything.

Maybe, a *possible* solution to my points (I am not sure still about the new system) would be having 2 *separated* and *paralel* ranking systems; *never mixing them*:

(A) Teams vs teams ranking (the nowadays one).
(B) Individuals vs individuals ranking (a new one; let's say, again, "official (nowadays) FMs"). (Then, (real) FMs would dissapear or people would be able to decide between '/offi' and '/fm' still? (retorical question).)

And never giving/decreasing ELO points twice in the same match (in the case of team vs team, adjusting ELO points *only* to teams; not also to individuals).

Apart of this, I was thinking, too: "If we want an individual ELO based on capturing skills, we already have it: the team's ELO where a player is part of gives them their individual ELO already, their identity. Player A is as good as their team is; player A has their team's ELO, individually, let's say (giving them some time to adapt each other, if the player is new, of course; and, also, the more a player plays with their team, the more similar they will be to each other!)". Then, do we really need this new system? Or it would be more problematic, instead? (retorical question).

Remember, people, that a league is based on teams. Any thing which could possibly go against teams should be either studied very well or avoided, because it could possibly go against the league itself. I remind and warn that one of the original ideas about this new system was "a radical overhaul of the league": "we dissolve ALL teams, and players are ranked individually (like the elo system in 1v1)" (llrr).

Why not making, maybe, a totally new tournament group (which won't be a league) with this new system, instead? (retorical question).

I always give my humble opinion with the best intention: the league's well-being.

* Reference: "The Elo rating system is a method for calculating the relative skill levels of players in competitor-versus-competitor games such as chess" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo; bold word made by me).
Last edited by alfa1 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Monster » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:13 pm

I'm with kierra, consti & Ken on the matter of number of caps counting for points.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by etigah » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:00 pm

I find myself having to defend my opinion on the subject of making caps count matter. The problem with only considering win/loss is that matches between strong teams and relatively weaker teams will be much less likely to be played, as the stronger team will have no incentive to play if points won from such a game are always miniscule, and the weaker team will also not be motivated to play knowing that losing is inevitable. Giving significance to caps count should give both parties a goal to play for. I must agree that some players react differently to the situation of winning/losing by a large amount, but as I said before, FMs are there for players who want to play casually, and if you don't want to lose big you shouldn't play against much stronger opponents. As for me, I enjoy playing against much stronger opponents.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by click click boom » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:08 pm

captures should matter as etigah said, why would a weak team not want to play a strong team when they know they would lose?

so what you do if it's a 1 capture game the weaker team gains points, if it's more than 1 capture they lose points so that the stronger team isn't racking up the score.

to easy..

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by Kenshin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:14 am

The same reason everyone played Sunspots -- the challenge

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:01 am

I would like to add that if we make caps affect ELO, it will only provide bonus ELO gain for the winning team, based upon the number of cap differential. There will be no extra points loss for the losing team. A limit of some form, most likely at +5 caps, will also be imposed to ensure that no further bonuses are awarded for more cap differentials.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by kierra » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:08 am

So, not only does the winning team gain points....you're going to sweeten the pot with elo gain depending on # of caps.

I would like to reiterate, that I don't agree with # of caps affecting elo gains
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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by llrr » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:15 am

I'm happy with either way, and since it seems like we have some players preferring one over the other and vice versa, but no majority, I think it would be best if the council can make a decision on this matter.

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Re: Leagues United New Format - Individual Rankings

Post by miro » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:07 pm

I too am against counting caps for ELO.

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