Making Even Teams

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alfa1
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Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:15 pm

It would be good, maybe, to have individual ELOes to make even teams for matches, both fun and official ones. Also, a plugin could be made to automate the process. I think that the ELOes should be taken from 1vs1 League, as it always has been this way. The system should be similar to what Constitution did with both his challenges and ELO Statistics plugin used on his servers:
01.png
(853.14 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Note #1: this idea was treated and proposed in some recent chats where I participated on (which blinky started, AFAIK); the previous 2 topics are related to them but hard to follow (too long; at least for me) and seem to talk about different topics from the original ideas (though could be valid too). This is why I start a new topic.
* Edited *: just to prove (because I was criticized by PMs but, also, to be fair) that I was in the original chats (this was the first one, AFAIK, about 2 weeks ago), that llrr was not in the first one, that the original idea was from blinky/d*mns3xy (AFAIK, because I joined, maybe, a tiny bit late), which is making even teams for matches, and that I proposed the 1vs1 idea at that time (based on Constitution's previous ones; maybe my English was not the best; and I was not able to start the topic before):
02.png
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Note #2: "I know this is a fairly isolated case, but I found the 1vs1 league's ZELO ratings to be useful as a way to rank players for the HiX Doubles tournament. Even though it was perhaps not designed (and not a perfect fit) for this usage, there are few other options as far as player skill ratings that cover such a large portion of the player population. I feel that it would be a loss if all of that was reset, especially if it was reset regularly, without keeping some more long-term data available" (A new year, a new beginning).
Last edited by alfa1 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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miro
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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by miro » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:45 pm

The 1vs1 league zelo ratings are outdated , the league has been inactive for years now and lots of players aren't even registered. Anyway you should read llrr's thread or at least explain more the details of your idea , what are the differences between yours and llr's one except using 1vs1 league elo?

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alfa1
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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:09 pm

The league is not inactive as you can see on their site.

About the known and active LU players which are still unregistered there, I see just few of them. There are just 10, apparently (which is easily fixeable). Also, total unreg. vs reg. players are just about 1/3 (which includes all of the unreg. BZ players who played there anytime): 275 vs. 748.

The main idea is simple:

- Individual ELOes should be taken from individual matches.
- Teams' ELOes should be taken from teams' matches.

Otherwise, it would be not fair or transparent.

Now, people should play more both leagues, true. To make it, precisely, more fair and transparent.

Note: BTW, HIX map should be re-added to it (there are also others maps included in LU).

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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by miro » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:46 pm

alpha1 wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:09 pm
The league is not inactive as you can see on their site.

About the known and active LU players which are still unregistered there, I see just few of them. There are just 10, apparently (which is easily fixeable). Also, total unreg. vs reg. players are just about 1/3 (which includes all of the unreg. BZ players who played there anytime): 275 vs. 748.

The main idea is simple:

- Individual ELOes should be taken from individual matches.
- Teams' ELOes should be taken from teams' matches.

Otherwise, it would be not fair or transparent.

Now, people should play more both leagues, true. To make it, precisely, more fair and transparent.

Note: BTW, HIX map should be re-added to it (there are also others maps included in LU).
What do you mean for "individual matches"? Are you suggesting to merge the two leagues? In some of the last months some players had won the 1vs1 league just by playing 1 match, i wouldnt call it active.

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alfa1
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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:13 pm

I just see activity in All matches page. With this new idea, both leagues would get more activity too.

"Individual matches" means 1vs1 matches, where every player demonstrates their skills individually, not by collective matches, as I understand llrr is suggesting for. Anyway, we are aiming to use individual ELOes with the objetive of making even teams for any fun/official match (and a plugin to handle this precise action/objetive, if possible), not (mainly, at least) as a final goal in itself.

I am not suggesting to merge both leagues but to make interaction between them, to get feedback, to use the best from every one, to get sinergy... Something like Constitution has been doing lately but making it permanent.

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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:01 am

Taking in count the lowest and highest scores, I made a table (Table A) with the 3 possible categories, using 3 groups of ELO points in an approximate amount (maybe they are not the best groups; every group has 500 ELO points, basically, with open extremes). Then we have:

- Experienced players (A): from 1400 to 1899 (and over) ELO points.
- Intermediate players (B): from 900 to 1399 ELO points.
- Beginning players (C): from 400 (and under) to 899 ELO points.

Table-A.png
Table A
Table-A.png (15.43 KiB) Viewed 1574 times

Note: the identification letters could be replaced for any group of them, as they fit better. In example: B/I/E, I/II/III, etc. The idea is to add them to players' mottoes, to make easier the conformation of teams (for matches) in-game.
Structure: <player's name> (<team's name>) (<player's ELO>) (<player's category>).
In example: "alpha1 (Team Name) (1000) (B)".

How to place players, based on their categories, to make even teams? Use Table B to make calculations and obtain even results (it also could be improved; maybe not the best one).

Table B
A: 0.75 points.
B: 0.50 points.
C: 0.25 points.

Examples:
2 Bs vs 2Bs --> 0.50 p + 0.50 p vs 0.50 p + 0.50 p --> 1 p vs 1 p --> even
1 A + 1 C vs 2 Bs --> 0.75 p + 0.25 p vs 0.50 p + 0.50 p --> 1 point vs 1 point --> even
1 A vs 1B + 1C --> 0.75 p vs 0.75 p --> even
1 A vs 3 Cs --> 0.75 p vs 0.75 p --> even
etc.

Note: I am following (though, as I said, it is hard to me since it's very long) the New Format topic. Then, (1) despite it was approved, (2) since I made this work (draft) about 1 week ago and (3) because it can still be useful, both for a new individual "official" ELO (maybe these tables should be adapted, tho) and for using the 1vs1 nowadays one, I am concluding this work. It could, maybe, be implemented adding only the category on mottoes; or, if not, just checking the 1vs1 page and seeing ELOes/ZELOes manually.

As I expressed on this topic, I don't like very much (or at all) making individal ELOes based on collective matches (which includes captures), which was approved recently on the league, as it would make points get deformed: until now it has been based, let's say, on individual kills, mostly (etigah said (in chat) "tactics are very hard to meassure", and he is right); based on 1vs1 matches, official or not; into 1vs1 League or not; everyone has an idea of "how good is that player", "how good is that another one"... It's my humble impression and seems others have it too. In the other hand, I liked seeing the excitement on part of the players with all these ELO/systems discussions. I hope, anyway, like everybody, that we all have better times/results in general, and, that we don't forget, please, that the or one of the original objetives was, precisely, making more even teams to make better players' experiences.

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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by macsforme » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:59 pm

Yes, there should be an individual rating system in this game. ELO based on kills has proven to not be ideal, given the random factor of who might kill you in a chance situation and due to the workarounds people do (like signing off at certain times). The individual ELO based on league CTF play might work better and I am hopeful that it does.

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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:26 pm

2 real examples:

(A)
HIX
click click boom (purple) vs Coltrain and noobTastic (red)
A vs BC --> even
Most part of the match was even (see note #1): 2-1 for reds when 4 min. left (picture #1); then it finished 4-1 for reds because ccb was tired (picture #2).

Time lenght: 15 min.
Date: 2017-04-21 - 20:00 approx. UTC 0
Recorded file: fun-20170421-2015.rec
(Match was not reported to page because had less than 2 players per team.)
01.png
(830.65 KiB) Not downloaded yet
02.png
(891.52 KiB) Not downloaded yet

(B)
HIX
Orange Peanut and noobTastic (purple) vs Coltrain and Fat Rat (red)
AC vs BB --> even
3-2 for purples

Time lenght: 15 min.
Date: 2017-04-21 - 21:09:58 UTC 0
Recorded file: fun-20170421-2109.rec
http://leaguesunited.org/matches/44194


* Note #1: I consider a match is uneven when the score point difference is 3 or over.

* Note #2: categories, in general, are approximate, since 1vs1 ELOes are somewhat out-of-date and partially incomplete. Sources: experience, direct talk, 1vs1 ELO, strayer's web, forums and LU.

* References:
click click boom: ELO: 1603.
Coltrain: forums and strayer's: 1 year old approx.; LU: 1 day old. approx.
noobTastic: forums and strayer's: 3 months old; LU: 1 month old. approx.
Orange Peanut: ELO: 971; forums, strayer's and LU: 4 years old approx.
Fat Rat: forums and LU: 8 months old; (strayer's: 8 years and 7 months old approx.).

* Other references:
Apparently out-of-date (they are supposedly A, not B):
Ebert: ELO: 1010.
MlG: ELO: 1028.
Krissitoff: ELO: 1081.

Apparently up-to-date (they are supposedly correct as A):
An SQUERRILz: ELO: 1449.
brad: ELO: 1457.
Zac: ELO: 1487.

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alfa1
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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:04 pm

Positive feedback:
  • LU's admin:
    01.png
    (224.64 KiB) Not downloaded yet
    (My participation on the New Format topic, related to these comments (to disable the highlighted text, open search result links in new tabs and delete "&hilit(...)" until the next "#" symbol, not including it, from their address bar).)
About 1vs1 League's state (by PM):
1vs1_maintainer wrote: If you are asking the state of 1vs1 league....it suffers from the same affliction of bzflag in general....loss of players in general without sufficient replacement numbers. It still sees activity. allejo servers for hix/dupi were down temporarily and now back up. Still the ebb & flow of activity is present on a day to day basis.....same as elsewhere on bz.
Last edited by alfa1 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by 1vs1_maintainer » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:28 pm

alpha1 wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:04 pm

About 1vs1 League's state:
1vs1_maintainer wrote: If you are asking the state of 1vs1 league....it suffers from the same affliction of bzflag in general....loss of players in general without sufficient replacement numbers. It still sees activity. allejo servers for hix/dupi were down temporarily and now back up. Still the ebb & flow of activity is present on a day to day basis.....same as elsewhere on bz.
To be clear: My pm comment to alpha and others on forums, is not an endorsement for 1vs1 elo system to be used in LeaguesUnited. LU is a separate entity to 1vs1 league.

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alfa1
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Re: Making Even Teams

Post by alfa1 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:19 pm

Just in case:
synergy
(also synergism)
NOUN
[mass noun]
The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.
‘the synergy between artist and record company’
(Oxford Dictionary)
Team work at its best results in a synergy that can be very productive.
(Cambridge Dictionary)

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