Official forums for BZFlag.org

Hello,

I am zaa, an active player in Leagues United (LU) since 2005.

Over my time participating in the GU and Ducati Leagues, I have seen a dramatic decline in interest in the league communities, which I found escalated when the two primary leagues merged, and became Leagues United.

It is understood that the objective in merging the leagues was to increase activity by joining individual league playerbases, creating a newly-branded, competitive platform.

To be blunt, I think one of the primary reasons that I think this didn't fully accomplish the projected goal was a lack in public discourse within the Leagues United community.

Open forum discussion has politically been one of the most successful conversational structures regarding community development. It is my understanding that a lot of players wish that LU was more active and would like to see a larger playerbase, which has a direct correlation to competition and overall player morale.

While the past structure used by the League Council, with additional administrative assistance has been effective and produced positive morale over the years, its effectivity in maintaining league activity has dropped significantly.

A discursive space for Leagues United players to propose ideas in accomplishing these common goals would successfully increase player morale, for the common LU player would see the changes that they hope to see be made before their eyes, which creates a stronger appeal to not just BZFlag, but the playing environment that the LeaguesUnited community offers.

______________________________________

tl;dr / thesis:

Open forum discussion, with unbiased moderation, would effectively contribute to an increase in general player morale, crafting a stronger appeal to the BZFLag Leagues United community.

- z

zaa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:35 pm It is understood that the objective in merging the leagues was to increase activity by joining individual league playerbases, creating a newly-branded, competitive platform.

Just to clarify: The goal was not to increase activity; but to bring all activity under one roof rather that in competing leagues for the same, small number of players.

kierra wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:51 pm

zaa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:35 pm It is understood that the objective in merging the leagues was to increase activity by joining individual league playerbases, creating a newly-branded, competitive platform.

Just to clarify: The goal was not to increase activity; but to bring all activity under one roof rather that in competing leagues for the same, small number of players.

Okay, sure -- that's a better way of framing it. But maybe I should say LU's goal became increasing activity.

Semantics, zaa;, but vere's from the issue of whatever you're trying to accomplish

EDIT:

An idea I had in mind would be a moderator panel chosen by members of the community, in order to disable any potential bias among said panel.

I would suggest the current LU Council/administration board -- however, I feel that even though the board is objectively trying to treat others equally, it doesn't happen.. however, I feel that it is typically unintentional.

Each member of the LU Council and even the administrative board has had altercations or behavioral disagreements with certain players (often more than once) that do shift their perceptions of players' character, which (naturally and non-objectively) creates an imbalance in individual player treatment.

I think it would benefit the community to have a productive discursive space, moderated by community-selected players that all can agree on.

Thoughts?

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initial post fix:

kierra wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:51 pm

zaa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:35 pm It is understood that the objective in merging the leagues was to increase activity by joining individual league playerbases, creating a newly-branded, competitive platform.

Just to clarify: The goal was not to increase activity; but to bring all activity under one roof rather that in competing leagues for the same, small number of players.

Read through this a couple time and I am still trying to wrap my head around what this is about.

Is this asking to change the 'format' for which the BZFlag forum happens?

Right now, we use this site and have online discussion board. That is our current format for input.



It seems you are proposing a 'verbal format' with structured meeting roles and agenda like I have with my staff and Board.

I am not sure it is feasible to schedule a 'BZflag conference call' type of situation. IF that what you are suggesting?



Let's say that it actually does happen...what would the reason of having this conference call?
A) Are players opinions not being heard?
B) Are players unhappy that they are heard but not agreed upon by decision makers and want to change who the decision makers are (admins and developers)?
C) some other reason...

Thank you for providing clarity as to this thread. Much appreciated for your input.

-Indy

I feel the same as Indy, I'm not sure what you want. The forums are available for such discussions as well as the league IRC channel, ##leaguesunited. Whether or not the players actually use them is another thing.

I am always open to hearing suggestions when they're presented in a rational manner. I think the problem in the past is that such discussions always become an argument between a handful of more vocal individuals bickering over semantics rather than the topic at hand which leads to the administration killing off the conversation or it discourages other players from participating.

What exactly do you want from us in this thread?

The actual discussion is taking place on discord server:
https://discord.gg/9rCkfyZ
Join the "#open-forum-moderated" channel discussion
So far some good discussion occuring and good ideas coming forth.

allejo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:38 pm I feel the same as Indy, I'm not sure what you want. The forums are available for such discussions as well as the league IRC channel, ##leaguesunited. Whether or not the players actually use them is another thing.

You're correct.

There are certain platforms for league-related communication that are already available for players to use, such as this subforum and the ##leaguesunited IRC channel. However, I have found that most players can't be bothered to interact with either of these platforms.

I have spoken to many community players who have told me that they don't comment on the forums much, if not log in at all. I am not suggesting that these platforms be more accessible, but the implementation of a new chat platform that is more accessible for players than what is already available.

As kierra mentioned, players have already been utilizing the #open-forum-moderated channel on Discord, and I feel that progress has already been made.

Indy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:37 pm Let's say that it actually does happen...what would the reason of having this conference call?
A) Are players opinions not being heard?
B) Are players unhappy that they are heard but not agreed upon by decision makers and want to change who the decision makers are (admins and developers)?
C) some other reason...

Without any centralization of players' common goals within an accessible and public discursive space, there is a disconnect between the board and the rest of the LeaguesUnited community.

Quite often, players' hopes or concerns regarding LeaguesUnited are addressed on an individual basis. Utilizing a public chat platform, where players' voices are collectively being heard by LU Council and the administrative board, in achieving a common goal would increase overall player morale.

Player morale is also correlative with competition and a strive to make the changes that the community hopes for.

Soooooo I don't think that Zaa's idea is all bad.

With that being said, there are a couple things that I'm a little confused with as well as worried.

1). I am of the opinion that if someone REALLY has something that they care about enough (like zaa here) they will take the time to log into the form and voice their opinion in a well thought out and organized idea/thought. If someone doesn't care enough to log in and write something out (in a proper and respectful manor) then what they have to say *might* not be worth the time and effort.
***(As a side note, having a form based discussion takes away from people just throwing outs ideas willy-nilly which isn't bad to be perfectly honest)

2). Having a instant message system like we are currently testing on discord isn't a bad idea. However, the issue that I see happening really fast is it getting out of hand. Having the ability to instantly respond to someone's comment that you disagree with takes that "breath~for~ten~seconds~and~calm~down" thing out. As a result people may say things that they don't mean or someone that shouldn't have been said to start and nobody has the time nor should be asked to moderate the chats at all times.

3). The other thing with the instant message system is that because THERE IS going to be so much happening on there due to the ability to just spit something out, (even if it has no real relevance to the current topic at hand) it will be very easy to miss something. As an example, I just logged onto discord this morning (after only signing off last night late) and there were already 300+ messages to read through. I don't have the time to read through all that. So as a result I am now suddenly disconnected from the conversation.

My main point is that while it isn't entirely a bad idea, however, there are just a lot of issues at hand. 1. Organization for different topics, 2. the massive amount of "extra" stuff that has nothing to do with the topic that is happening and 3.the fact that many players don't have time to be on at all times set us essentially back to square one.

Kesslar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:38 pm My main point is that while it isn't entirely a bad idea, however, there are just a lot of issues at hand. 1. Organization for different topics, 2. the massive amount of "extra" stuff that has nothing to do with the topic that is happening and 3.the fact that many players don't have time to be on at all times set us essentially back to square one.

Hey Kess, thanks for the input. You've got some good points here, and i'll do my best to address them all.

Topic Organization & Static Reduction

I too have noticed that there's been a slight increase in static in the new channel. Participants tend to stay on topic, but reducing static to its minimum is something I'd like to accomplish.

One thing that I am going to look into is if there is any way to create subtopics (sub-channels?) that can exist within the preexisting #open-forum-moderated channel where players can discuss individual topics.

If not, or if it's not an effective solution, I may talk to some players about the possibility of starting a Discord server that is meant for open-forum discussion, separate from the BZF Leagues United server.

Falling Behind

You're right.

If I'm out for the day and can't access my computer, there'll be plenty of unread messages in the #open-forum-moderated channel that at first, can be a bit overwhelming and I may have me feeling a bit out of the loop.

This morning, I noticed a thumbtack icon at the top of my Discord app window. It showed me this.

It appears that Discord server moderators have the ability to pin messages as part of the discussion, which is as most as I think can be done to keep idling/inactive participants on the same page.

I would suggest that there would be occasional messages regarding the current topic of discussion, pinned by a server moderator. Aside from that, it is mostly in the hands of the participants to read (or at least skim) the previous discussion to get themselves caught up.

I will speak to Bertman about this soon, and we'll discuss our options.

I think that what you originally brought up is a good idea *for just kicking ideas around in their infancy stages*. However, with that being said, anything beyond that should in my opinion; be posted to the forum discussion. These forums were created and are still used all over the internet. There's a reason they exist. Forums are somewhat difficult to post to for a very specific reason. If everyone went around posting their ideas then we'd have caos like unto what can be found by logging into the discord chat . But for anything that people want to be taken seriously - I'd strongly advise posting and discussing on the forums here. The discord channel isn't a bad idea for players to kick ideas around, but trying to get anything serious done there is a guaranteed mess and people WILL miss many things. How many times have you misread a text message from a single person?


What you're suggesting in response to my concerns are not only inefficient but also a lot of work for one or two people. It just seems rather desperate for something different if you ask me. This is a game, not a job that somoene is being paid to maintain and keep organized.

The problem is forums are no longer reaching players. It’s just an out dated platform. It’s not that it doesn’t work because it can and has in the past. Players are not regularly logging in and are not in tune. If someone wants to propose an idea they will simply come here. But the majority are a few admins reading the forums and not players.

So getting players to communicate through discord is a great idea. I’m not a huge fan of it personally but you can easily reach out to younger and active players.

Forums are becoming extinct on the web, Facebook groups have kind overtook them.

And yes there is irc which has been around since the 90s. How many kids playing this game even know what that is?

I honestly don't know, and I hate that these forums are losing their effectiveness, but I have an idea about how to help the Forums reach more of the BZFlag players. The idea is as follows:

As most people here know, when someone logs in to play on a map with a registered username, the Forums site, which is linked to the application, will let that person know when they have private messages waiting for them on Forums, but I think we need to expand that notification. If someone, like Tim Riker himself or another high-ranking administrator here (e.g. Blast, Bullet Catcher) can change the Forums to where it will notify any registered player logged in while playing if someone replies to ANY public topic on the Forums. That way, it can let more people know what is going on in the BZFlag community, if any major issues are concerning the public, and possibly offer solutions to them. Also, I see numerous people on the Forums every day, but the vast majority of those online are non-registered guests. I believe that if they are willing to be active and abide by the rules here, and not bully people, hack servers, target players, or damage anyone's reputation, then I am recommending them to register, so that we can have a new active generation of the Forums community. It may not end up as big as it used to be, but hopefully big enough to where we can make a difference, and help everyone enjoy the game for many years to come.

The forum is a good platform. Some people need to avoid being lazy and to check it somewhat often.

IRC is, as well, a good platform.

I am tired of hearing silly arguments and people talking a lot (specially teens).

Forums are still hugely popular on the web. Many communities in gaming have forums. Steam and GOG have forums. Ubisoft has forums. Epic Games has forums (even for that new game you might have heard of, Fortnite, with thousands of threads about their recently added Battle Royale mode). Apple, Dell, and HP have forums. Just because you don't like forums, ccb, doesn't mean that forums are somehow extinct or outdated.

blast wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:46 pm Forums are still hugely popular on the web. Many communities in gaming have forums. Steam and GOG have forums. Ubisoft has forums. Epic Games has forums (even for that new game you might have heard of, Fortnite, with thousands of threads about their recently added Battle Royale mode). Apple, Dell, and HP have forums. Just because you don't like forums, ccb, doesn't mean that forums are somehow extinct or outdated.

Yes, forums are prevalent on the web and in many communities, especially gaming communities, they are effective.

Unfortunately, I feel that the population of BZFlag players that belong to LeaguesUnited often do not use the forums as a space to work together towards a common goal.

It is a fine environment to address global administrators, moderators and devs, regarding game-related questions and suggestions -- but I have not seen it actively utilized for LeaguesUnited community development.

The responsibility to do so is partially on the players, but based on the public surveying i've done, most don't even put forth the time to log in.

Honestly, I don't think you mental model of a facebook or discord social media is designed to do what you are wanting.

I cannot think of any game that has a facebook page that dictates the direction of the game.

Is it that forums are not as 'shiny' as discord?

Zaa, Have you actually used any forums outside of the bzforum? I don't mean hop on them to find an answer. I mean read, post, talk, and kick ideas around. Admittedly the bzforums aren't the prettiest, but they are setup and operate almost identically to many other forums across the internet. Forums aren't meant to be little SMS things. People have grown used to instant chatting. People want it right here right now, and want nothing to do with this whole "waiting" thing. Forums are not, and never were designed to be instant chat systems. They have a more sophisticated purpose.

You said it yourself.

zaa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:35 pm The responsibility to do so is partially on the players, but based on the public surveying i've done, most don't even put forth the time to log in.

Players aren't putting forth the time to enter a username and password and browse (like they do everyday with Facebook, Instagram, twitter) because they don't care enough, if they cared enough they would take the time to log in and read the forums. But because they don't care enough, it isn't just "partially" their fault. It is entirely their own fault. Not the forum's.

Kesslar wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:31 pm Zaa, Have you actually used any forums outside of the bzforum? I don't mean hop on them to find an answer. I mean read, post, talk, and kick ideas around. Admittedly the bzforums aren't the prettiest, but they are setup and operate almost identically to many other forums across the internet. Forums aren't meant to be little SMS things. People have grown used to instant chatting. People want it right here right now, and want nothing to do with this whole "waiting" thing. Forums are not, and never were designed to be instant chat systems. They have a more sophisticated purpose.

I've used plenty of forums -- many for active gaming communities.. posting team/clan videos, organizing tournaments, and so on. Also.. I think there may have been some miscommunication between us.

I am not suggesting that the LeaguesUnited community utilizes a new forum, but that we use a communicative platform with an implemented instant-messaging system for players to chat together, regarding community development. In order for this kind of communication to be successful, it requires an open forum discursive structure -- which can be operated through platforms such as Discord.

Indy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:19 pm Is it that forums are not as 'shiny' as discord?

While Discord is 'shinier', that's not quite what i'm getting at.

LeaguesUnited Council as well as administration/developers use the BZFlag Forums to (often privately) discuss upcoming events, discipline, and overall player morale. When it comes to how the forums are utilized by the LeaguesUnited community, this is its primary use.

While the forums are a very successful tool in communal discussion, especially regarding community development, it is not effective for all players. Even though it is the responsibility of players to utilize the forums if that is the intended platform for communication, many will not because of the formality seen in fashion of posting. Regardless, I think it's important that we attempt to bridge the gap between players of the Leagues United community and LU Council/administration.

I have already found in the #open-forum-discussion channel on the BZF Leagues United channel that players are much more responsive to offered topics of discussion than on the Leagues United Discussion subforum.

However, organized topic structure within an instant-messaging based chat platform like Discord is very possible, and is what I think we should consider next.

I think that the whole idea may be misunderstood by some. This idea isn't and shouldn't be a "replacement" for the official forums. It is simply another technology we have at our disposal and gives some players a "real time" connection with some admins to voice their ideas and concerns in a more relaxed environment. Once these ideas and concerns are voiced, then they can always be taken to forums for official discussion. There is no need for concern here.

@blast
I never said I don’t like the forums in my above post did I?
it has nothing to do with me not being a fan of forums especially since I’m one of the more active ones. This is a small community game and most
Community members involved in the league don’t participate in the forums. I can tell you since using discord many more have been involved.

Yes many large gaming
Platforms will use forums. But I can also sit here and tell you fort nite has 5 groups on Facebook

Fortnite Xbox one 8k members
Fortnite ps4 20k members
Fortnite battle royale 112k members

Clearly forums are not the only way the newer gamers are trending towards.

Many prefer a centralized place to have their social networking/ and gamin experience.



And finale what closed source game or large game forums board dictate the development of the game? Battlefield one is a huge game but they aren’t combing through posts to see what I like or dislike. Games that
Big will also use social networking like twitter to get feedback. Truthfully there isn’t a clear cut way for games to communicate but whatever seems to succeed. Right now it’s discord for the league. The activity doesn’t lie.


@ kesslar:
It Has nothing to do with people not caring or
Being to lazy to use the forums. When you can click an app and have a thread populated instantly. Or to communicate live, it becomes more feasible to use. Many in this game I have noticed hate any sort of change. The forums aren’t going anywhere they are here to stay and can be used if need be but if another platform is more readily accessible why not use it for official purposes?

I was merely providing facts countering your hyperbole about forums going extinct. I made no claims that other communication platforms aren't also popular.

@ccb,
I am merely making the point that the forums are where official business will take place. Things like discord as I have stated before are great for kicking ideas around, but they will not be replacing the forums in terms of official business. Same would be applied to a Facebook page.

As for more feasible, just imagine how many messages you've already missed on discord. I would be hesitant to call that "feasible" at least in terms of "getting things done".

Kesslar I haven’t missed no messages. All you need to do is scroll up and can read them all. Just time consuming. And a bit difficult since I use the app.