Is radar too good, or 1st person view too useless?

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rolling_blunder
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Is radar too good, or 1st person view too useless?

Post by rolling_blunder » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:41 pm

Admit it: even though there's a lovely 3D view out your front window, you look at radar most of the time.

Admit it: when you get a blindness flag, you go on playing normally. when you get a jamming flag, you're in constant worry and can't wait for it to be over.

Sometimes I wonder if the 3D aspects of the game even matter, except in a few instances. I often feel like I'm playing a 2D game in the lower left hand corner of my screen, and just getting a little extra info from the rest of the real estate.

These are just a few things that indicate Radar might be out of balance in BZFlag.

Thoughts?

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Post by Davy Jones » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:59 pm

I'm pretty sure most of us are going to disagree with you
But it is what makes bzflag good.

Most
of us can't use radar to rico off pyramids, as †hey show up as boxes in the current mode


There are many other factors against and for your argument.

But i think most of us like the radar how it is
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Post by A Meteorite » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:18 pm

Davy Jones wrote:I'm pretty sure most of us are going to disagree with you
I'm pretty sure most of the good players are actually going to disagree with you and agree with rolling_blunder.

I'm with rolling_blunder as well. I barely use the window except in close dogfights. Other than that it's all radar. And I do perfectly fine (dare I say, way above average?).

And about confusing pyramids and boxes: that's why you play the map long enough to know what they are. And if you still can't tell where you are based on your radar alone then the map has a serious playability problem.
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Post by Lan » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:43 pm

rolling_blunder, you hit the nail on the head. I *do* panic when I have jamming but play normally even with blindness. The only times when radar is not good and in fact might hurt me is when I am trying to make a long range laser shot, dogfights (as meteorite said), or...well thats about it.

However, I disagree that it is out of balance. The radar is part of the game and isn't unfair or unbalanced by any means. Some people might find the window view better than radar, and if so, they have that choice. Choosing radar to help me out primarily is a strategy, not an advantage or cheat (if that's what you meant or hinted at) ;)

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Post by The Red Baron » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:24 am

Davy Jones wrote:I'm pretty sure most of us are going to disagree with you
But it is what makes bzflag good.

Most
of us can't use radar to rico off pyramids, as †hey show up as boxes in the current mode


There are many other factors against and for your argument.

But i think most of us like the radar how it is
two very major leagues disaggree with you. Http://my.bzflag.org/league Http://www.gu.bzleague.com

and I personally disagree with you.

I find the HUD useless, radar is everything. Don't mess with my radar :)
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Post by Davy Jones » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:28 am

That's not what i mean...I meant that mod...ing the radar would not be very good for the game, as most like it how it is.
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Post by A Meteorite » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:49 am

Davy Jones wrote:That's not what i mean...I meant that mod...ing the radar would not be very good for the game, as most like it how it is.
Modifying the radar wasn't even mentioned.
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Post by A Vicious Muffin » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:06 am

Yes, the radar is everything, dodging, knowing where people are, where to rico off things, and how to get places. It's everything.

However, look at it this way. It is important, but imagine if BZFlag didn't have a HUD. It was just one big giant radar with dots moving on it. A lot less fun, and to me, it seems more confusing. Yes, radar is a crucial part of the game, but you also should also look out your HUD. Take a look at any one of louman's maps. It's a work of art, a masterpiece. How would it look on a radar?

My two cents.
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Post by blast » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:20 am

The radar is actually part of the HUD, along with any other onscreen text and visual. HUD stands for Heads Up Display. The 3D view is not the HUD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heads-up_display

Anyway, Jeff has called the game 2.5D because of the high reliance on a 2D representation of the world. Some have suggested making the radar more of a rough representation. (Maybe more like a circular rotating radar representation) I am unsure how this would affect BZFlag as we know it.
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Post by Winny » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:18 am

I use the view only 10% of the time.
Jones wrote:I'm pretty sure most of us are going to disagree with you
Please, do your research before saying these things.

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Post by The Red Baron » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:10 am

blast wrote:The radar is actually part of the HUD, along with any other onscreen text and visual. HUD stands for Heads Up Display. The 3D view is not the HUD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heads-up_display

Anyway, Jeff has called the game 2.5D because of the high reliance on a 2D representation of the world. Some have suggested making the radar more of a rough representation. (Maybe more like a circular rotating radar representation) I am unsure how this would affect BZFlag as we know it.
from my understanding, Jeff would like to make a circular radar, with a representation of the map, and something akin to halo's motion sensor. or so I last talke to him.

The Huge reliace on the radar/2D representation of the world, was introduced with the config, and the ability to modify the radar sizing. That was when player discovered you could post bigger sizes then what the GUI options specified.

Technically, you could say that the radar has been "abused" and "exploited." But in my understanding of the history of bz... thats where alot of the Flags have their origin.
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Post by Davy Jones » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:50 am

Sometimes I wonder if the 3D aspects of the game even matter, except in a few instances. I often feel like I'm playing a 2D game in the lower left hand corner of my screen, and just getting a little extra info from the rest of the real estate.

These are just a few things that indicate Radar might be out of balance in BZFlag.
I'm sorry if i led you to the wrong conclusion about my thoughts-I was saying i disagree with that the 3D aspects don't matter, as AVM said, quite frankly, having it just have a big radar would make me quit.

I LIKE the view out the radar, and i usually turn the opacity so i can see through the radar, i personally only have it 3 or 4 above default, which is pretty small, but i can live with it.
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Post by rolling_blunder » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:06 pm

thanks for your comments everyone, i'm not too surprised that so many agree, but i wanted to see for sure.

anyway, i'm not advocating for getting rid of the radar, or unilaterally nerfing it for everyone. i think that a forced decision like that would be against the spirit of this kind of open-source game. servers should be able to run as they like, and many of the maps now are very dependent on radar the way it is.

but i do think that, at present, the 3D aspect is underutilized. players are going to use whatever works to win, and right now the radar is "stronger", so the 3D side sort of atrophies. yes, there are many beautifully designed levels, but honestly i rarely notice.

i think radar is pretty crucial in BZF, especially in free-for-alls where enemies can spawn all over the place. but some nerfing might actually open up whole new aspects of gameplay. it would be great if you used radar to see that someone was behind you, but then you'd have to use the window view to really fight them accurately. or to have a CTF game where radar was so nerfed that you had to use teamwork to keep any opponents from getting behind your front lines, where they could pick your whole team off.

so let's hear some ideas for things that could be built into new maps or future versions of BZF to re-balance things! Here's a few:

Idea #1: allow the server to limit the radar views that are available. for instance, only allowing 1, 2, or 3 fixed sizes, unchangeable. i could imagine a well-made map that only allowed one very "zoomed out" radar view as being really fun.

Idea #2: create some new radar variables that can be chosen by the server, such as:
- a degree of fuzziness
- motion-sensor only
- only show tanks within a certain range
- only show team flags & carriers

Got more??

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Post by WarPig » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:22 pm

although i admit to watching the radar most of the time, i disagree that radar should be changed, the radar is what makes it fun. also, as many have said. re-bounding shots of pryramids is simply impossible without a 3D view!

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Post by The Red Baron » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:46 am

WarPig wrote:although i admit to watching the radar most of the time, i disagree that radar should be changed, the radar is what makes it fun. also, as many have said. re-bounding shots of pryramids is simply impossible without a 3D view!
if you mean ricocheting off a pyramid, to hit a wing dude, or some one in the air, without using hud is impossible...

You're wrong. its quite possible. i do it all the time, and I'm not the only one. its rather easily done.
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Post by WarPig » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:18 am

really?? well...i must try it! i guess im lacking experiance

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Post by CUPCAKE » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:59 pm

I'm more of half and half...
I use the window alot of the time, but I always keep an eye on th radar for people behind walls or behind me. :D

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Post by blast » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:27 pm

It really depends on the map. Some maps you HAVE to look out the main view. It also depends on the weapons. Laser I usually don't "spray" due to the long reload. I try to make every shot count, so I use the main view for laser.
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Post by CUPCAKE » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:53 pm

blast wrote:It really depends on the map. Some maps you HAVE to look out the main view.
Like Hide N' Seek Hills No Radar? :lol-old:

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Post by blast » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:35 pm

CUPCAKE wrote:
blast wrote:It really depends on the map. Some maps you HAVE to look out the main view.
Like Hide N' Seek Hills No Radar? :lol-old:

heh, well that one too. But I mean some maps with complex platforms or openings that you have to jump into.
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Post by CUPCAKE » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:13 am

One word: wait... actually, two letters: ST. That's the main reason I use the window view as much as the radar.

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Post by Joop » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:37 am

Actually i agree a little both ways...more toward Davy Jones

i love useing the first person window...it is what makes bzlflag, BZFLAG

i use both about equally...the radar and window...

if we didn't have the 3d part of it this game would have never become this popular or exciting ...bzflag would flat out suck

just my thoughts...

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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:44 am

Rover Blaster wrote:Actually i agree a little both ways...more toward Davy Jones

i love useing the first person window...it is what makes bzlflag, BZFLAG

i use both about equally...the radar and window...

if we didn't have the 3d part of it this game would have never become this popular or exciting ...bzflag would flat out suck

just my thoughts...

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I believe its the reverse. Bzflag without the radar would flat out suck. And the radar is what makes bzflag, bzflag.

What other games have a radar equivalent to bzflag?
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Post by Joop » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:48 am

The Red Baron wrote: I believe its the reverse. Bzflag without the radar would flat out suck. And the radar is what makes bzflag, bzflag.

What other games have a radar equivalent to bzflag?
I never said anything about getting rid of radar...i was just talking about the 3D aspect of the game
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:38 am

Rover Blaster wrote:
The Red Baron wrote: I believe its the reverse. Bzflag without the radar would flat out suck. And the radar is what makes bzflag, bzflag.

What other games have a radar equivalent to bzflag?
I never said anything about getting rid of radar...i was just talking about the 3D aspect of the game
And neither did he..off the top of my head, I can't think of any similar games with a radar near the quality of the BZ-radar.
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