Call Out -- Open Letter to BZFlag Community

All things BZFlag - no [OT] here please
Locked
guyfawkes_usa
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:19 am
Location: Miami, FL

Call Out -- Open Letter to BZFlag Community

Post by guyfawkes_usa » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:36 am

Hello All,

This will be the 3rd time I have operated a BZFlag server and hoped that this time would be different. Hopefully I could run my server the way I like without anyone else interfering/cracking/etc with it. I was wrong. Don't worry accused... I will only stick to facts and let others who play the game make decisions for themselves.

After I banned these users for harrassing me, they did the same thing they always do: They tried to use the Tor game hack and send filthy messages to my server. Normally I would not reveal who these people are (assuming by their lack of character that they are kids), but I figure enough is enough. These guys are evidently script kiddies, wannabe-crackers, and the like. They have no credibility among the rest of us who have integrity.


Not saying anything other than these are the guys who showed up in my banfile:

[BEGIN EDIT BY BZBB ADMINISTRATOR - Mon Jun 4 00:42:03 EDT 2007]
PLAYER W
PLAYER X
PLAYER Y
PLAYER Z
[END EDIT BY BZBB ADMINISTRATOR]

I have no proof other than ip addresses and tcp dump traffic to show what these people tried to do but I have banned these same users over the past 3 years and get the same harrassment (sending unauthorized messages to the server) within minutes! These are merely the usernames of the people who I believe did this.

If you don't like my server, please don't play there. No one is forcing anyone to come and play if they don't want to. If you have a problem with the fact that I like to run robots, send a message via /report or if you prefer, you can now send a message here directly to me. If you can't send a letter explaining your points with intelligence, I will not acknowledge them.

Thank You,

guyfawkes_usa

User avatar
Peter
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1
Contact:

Post by Peter » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:04 am

The players you have mentioned are quite reputable, I can 99.9999% say that they did not do what you are saying. What is a possibility is that someone else is using their call sighns.

And I am not sure if mentioning names like this is allowed on the fourm.
“Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all of my base are belong to you.” ~ Nerd on Colour

User avatar
A Meteorite
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 1786
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:56 am
Location: California, U.S.
Contact:

Re: Call Out -- Open Letter to BZFlag Community

Post by A Meteorite » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:18 am

guyfawkes_usa wrote:Normally I would not reveal who these people are (assuming by their lack of character that they are kids), but I figure enough is enough. These guys are evidently script kiddies, wannabe-crackers, and the like. They have no credibility among the rest of us who have integrity.
Then please do not name callsigns that are reputable. If you know the attacks were tor-based any callsign naming is purely speculative and circumstantial.
Last edited by A Meteorite on Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Owner @ BZFX
Core Admin @ CAN

Email me: bzmet…@gmail.com

lodxcol
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:13 am

Post by lodxcol » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:20 am

Yeah, right. Those people have quite some reputation around here, all of them being server owners, and even administrators here at the board. BZFX is a server network run by a meteorite, that name is just one he uses for global groups.

I highly doubt your suspects are the actual culprits.

User avatar
learner
General
General
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 2:06 am
Location: Maryland
Contact:

absolutely inappropriate

Post by learner » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:36 am

The dispute was raised to the attention of others and was in regards to you running bots on your server to artificially increase your server's position on the list server. This is highly frowned upon in general, particularly when the bots serve no purpose but to do just that (increase stats) or otherwise keep your server high in the list.

It's on the developer's todo list to make bots not count towards the list server count (at all) and this will be enforced down the road, but can't be immediately deployed due to compatibility and technical implementation issues. In the meantime, for long-running servers it is requested that they not retain more than one or two bots at most unless you are implementing genetic algorithms or have some other academic interest.

It's absolutely inappropriate to "Call Out" any players on the forums regardless of the issue. Take it private, let it go, or leave your issues on the field. This thread is over.

User avatar
L4m3r
Hater of Everything
Hater of Everything
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:15 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by L4m3r » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:10 am

Note also that both tor attacks and the (UNKNOWN) issue were fixed months ago, and the fix is in 2.0.9 SVN, which is used by all the major public servers I'm aware of. 2.0.8 is over a year old now, and it's quite unfair to "call out" players you conveniently have a beef with when it is you who failed to secure your server.

Your approach to the issue is obviously inflammatory. Please do not insult our intelligence by saying that you will "let others who play the game make decisions for themselves."

Players are generally hostile to the presence of bots, let alone when they're used to scam the list server- Learner covered that part nicely.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.

guyfawkes_usa
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:19 am
Location: Miami, FL

Post by guyfawkes_usa » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:20 pm

Funny how it was you guys who came quickly to try to defend yourselves. Everyone who does things wrong were reputable at one time or another. Nonetheless, I'll let it go and not mention it again as long as it doesn't happen again. It was patched to 2.0.9 when I started the thread. Because someone may have a door that can get kicked in, it doesn't mean it's ok to break in.

My server runs bots. Get over it. It's my choice. They are not necessarily used to up the player count to get a higher listing. I've run bots many times and still had my server only show up on page 2 or page 3. If it's something that needs to be fixed (and I agree it does if it causes you guys all this worry and grief), then let the developers do this (or you guys can do this -- it is Open Source!). I am honestly interested in the BZRC project. If I let others join the "experiment", that is up to me and them. I do not force anyone ever to play -- by threatening them or by going to their server and trying to disrupt it.

I did not say anyone did anything. I merely presented evidence. I'll let others decide for themselves. If I was a completely objective player and I read this, I would not jump to conclusions but I would be cautious and nothing more until the situation warrants it.

Thank you for your opinions.

User avatar
joevano
General
General
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:08 pm
Location: South Bend, Indiana, USA

Post by joevano » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:28 pm

guyfawkes_usa wrote:Funny how it was you guys who came quickly to try to defend yourselves. Everyone who does things wrong were reputable at one time or another. Nonetheless, I'll let it go and not mention it again as long as it doesn't happen again. It was patched to 2.0.9 when I started the thread. Because someone may have a door that can get kicked in, it doesn't mean it's ok to break in.

My server runs bots. Get over it. It's my choice. They are not necessarily used to up the player count to get a higher listing. I've run bots many times and still had my server only show up on page 2 or page 3. If it's something that needs to be fixed (and I agree it does if it causes you guys all this worry and grief), then let the developers do this (or you guys can do this -- it is Open Source!). I am honestly interested in the BZRC project. If I let others join the "experiment", that is up to me and them. I do not force anyone ever to play -- by threatening them or by going to their server and trying to disrupt it.

I did not say anyone did anything. I merely presented evidence. I'll let others decide for themselves. If I was a completely objective player and I read this, I would not jump to conclusions but I would be cautious and nothing more until the situation warrants it.

Thank you for your opinions.
Uhm.. learner and L3m4r are developers for the project. As far as evidence once you mentioned Tor all evidence is suspect as they have said, so accusations are suspect as well (and not worthy of posting). Without strong overwhelming evidence what you said is nothing more that hearsay and worthless to the community.

guyfawkes_usa
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:19 am
Location: Miami, FL

Post by guyfawkes_usa » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:48 pm

donny_baker you are one of many who have opinions. What more can I say? If it's too much to handle, let it go.

meeba
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: N. Sanity Beach
Contact:

Post by meeba » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:50 pm

guyfawkes_usa wrote:donny_baker you are one of many who have opinions. What more can I say? If it's too much to handle, let it go.
I think you, sir, need to let it go. I can assure you that nobody you mentioned did anything to you, other than provide you with a game.

As Donny said, you other evidence went out the window once you mentioned Tor. IPs no longer are valid as evidence after that.

guyfawkes_usa
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:19 am
Location: Miami, FL

Post by guyfawkes_usa » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:59 pm

Conveniently. Ok, that's the last I'll mention of it if no one has anything else they'd like to add.

meeba
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: N. Sanity Beach
Contact:

Post by meeba » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:08 pm

Actually, wait. guyfawkes, can you PM me the list of names EXACTLY as you saw them? I have a suspicion about something.

A certain cheater comes to mind (not you).

User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by ducatiwannabe » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:46 pm

This is how I view it: A server owner has full right to put bots on his server to boost the player count. However, I don't think it'll be too cool, devs, to make it so that bots do not count for a player count. If anything, keep the whole "this many players on red/blue/green/etc team", but just add a bots slot with how many bots are there. Or just leave it... because this is what I've seen with servers filled with bots. A player or two, sometimes up to four or five will come for a short period of time, but because of the lack of challenge (I'm assuming), they grow bored and leave. The server will just become unpopular and officially ignored by some after some time, no matter how insanely cool their maps or settings are. People just don't like lots of bots.

Keep in mind that guyfawkes did not accuse anybody of anything, though it may seem like a player attack. He's just saying how it was tracked, and I'm going to assume he's just trying to be as safe as possible. Still, in the future, with a topic like this especially, I suggest you try to leave names out as much as possible so you won't get the whole squabble thing. I do know how annoying the tor spammers are... and if there is any way I can help you I will.

User avatar
CannonBallGuy
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:31 am
Contact:

Post by CannonBallGuy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:47 pm

I have had trouble on my server from a range of IPs. I have a hunch that these IPs are associated to a reasonably unknown player going by the name of "guyfawkes_usa". I think he is immature and childish. What do you say to this?

Furthermore, I don't like trouble at my servers - seems you feel the same way - and so I have taken measures to prevent it.

Lastly, you are certainly free to run Open Source software as you wish.
You are not, however, free to list your server on the official server list.
That is a privilege, not a right.
Image

Merry Christmas!

"Look, if I don't buy booze for the kids, I don't get any incriminating pictures to show to their parents, my business goes down the sink, my girlfriend leaves me and the baby goes on ebay. So help me search..."

"go Play With Toys urself in a dark alley u donkey ******" - Lt-Kirby2007

User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by ducatiwannabe » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:53 pm

I understand that this is/feels rather heated, guys... but I think a respectful approach will work a lot better of getting your point across rather than sarcasm or personal attacks.

guyfawkes_usa
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:19 am
Location: Miami, FL

Post by guyfawkes_usa » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:00 pm

If I may ask, who runs the list server? If they tell me not to have any bots, I'll make my server private or keep it public without the bots as long as it is enforced across the board. Yes you are correct, I don't own the list server but the capability to transfer data to it is included in the source.

I apologize for showing the names. I did that out of anger. I promise as long as it doesn't happen exactly like it did before, I'll never do that again. CannonBallGuy you are among many who have an opinion. If you are describing me with those adjectives, I can dispute them but it would just be tit for tat and I do not wish to stoop to that level. Like you too I have taken measures to prevent trouble. Like you hopefully, I am not a l33t script kiddie who has never worked with an analytical machine before.

Regards,

Guy Fawkes USA

User avatar
DTRemenak
General
General
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:54 am
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Post by DTRemenak » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:16 pm

Firstly: Regarding bots (and the list server), learner's word goes. The development team (as far as posts in this thread, that means learner, l4m3r, and me) run the list server at our discretion.

Generic information (i.e. not directed specifically at anyone in this thread): High bot counts on public servers are strongly discouraged except for active development (i.e. research, learning systems training, what have you). Running bots specifically to raise player count is expressly prohibited. Assuming contact information is provided somewhere on the server in question, or is known from other sources (i.e. here), the server owner will certainly be contacted a good while before his server is, ehm, "forcefully delisted."

Secondly: Ducatiwannabe's second post is absolutely correct. You can and should ask someone to reconsider their conclusions without being rude or sarcastic.

Generic information: If any thread develops into a flamewar, abuse, or heckling, it will be locked (all parties are welcome to review the board rules).

User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2024
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:44 pm

guyfawkes_usa wrote:My server runs bots. Get over it. It's my choice.
You have the privilege of running a server that complies with the list server rules, but there are server rules regarding bots. There is no saying "get over it" when talking to the list server administrators... sorry.
ducatiwannabe wrote:A server owner has full right to put bots on his server to boost the player count.
Mm, not so sure about that. See below.
CannonBallGuy wrote:Lastly, you are certainly free to run Open Source software as you wish.
You are not, however, free to list your server on the official server list.
That is a privilege, not a right.
DTRemenak wrote:Firstly: Regarding bots (and the list server), learner's word goes. The development team (as far as posts in this thread, that means learner, l4m3r, and me) run the list server at our discretion.

Generic information (i.e. not directed specifically at anyone in this thread): High bot counts on public servers are strongly discouraged except for active development (i.e. research, learning systems training, what have you). Running bots specifically to raise player count is expressly prohibited.

User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by ducatiwannabe » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:33 am

I think this is resolved, or close to it, but thank you for your post anyway. Still, while I see where you all are coming from, it seems to me if somebody is paying to play/run a normally free game, he can decide what he wishes to do with it, whether or not that is unpopular with the public. And, if it is unpopular, the person likely won't get players, and will have to figure out why. If it's in this case, bots, then eventually the owner may remove the bots if he finds that they annoy people. At any rate, it seems to me bots are a small matter compared to servers that allow extremely vulgar things and such which are actually harmful. It's all really a choice of where you wish to play, I think. Or, if you view my previous posts, perhaps there can be something done to change how the server shows the player count. Of course, the devs already mentioned taking out the showing of a supposed amount of players, when they are bots. Follow me anybody?

User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2024
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:22 am

ducatiwannabe wrote:Follow me anybody?
Yeah... and I didn't mean to pick a fight with anyone. :-) I just know that there are (a very few) rules for the list server, and I think these ought to be followed. I do see your point, though... and the devs seem to be working on solutions already.

User avatar
CannonBallGuy
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:31 am
Contact:

Post by CannonBallGuy » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:28 pm

ducatiwannabe wrote:I think this is resolved, or close to it, but thank you for your post anyway. Still, while I see where you all are coming from, it seems to me if somebody is paying to play/run a normally free game, he can decide what he wishes to do with it, whether or not that is unpopular with the public. And, if it is unpopular, the person likely won't get players, and will have to figure out why. If it's in this case, bots, then eventually the owner may remove the bots if he finds that they annoy people. At any rate, it seems to me bots are a small matter compared to servers that allow extremely vulgar things and such which are actually harmful. It's all really a choice of where you wish to play, I think. Or, if you view my previous posts, perhaps there can be something done to change how the server shows the player count. Of course, the devs already mentioned taking out the showing of a supposed amount of players, when they are bots. Follow me anybody?
I dont see anything vulgar on the list.
And we are not saying that a server cannot be run with bots.
We are saying - he does not have a RIGHT to have that server listed on the official list.
Image

Merry Christmas!

"Look, if I don't buy booze for the kids, I don't get any incriminating pictures to show to their parents, my business goes down the sink, my girlfriend leaves me and the baby goes on ebay. So help me search..."

"go Play With Toys urself in a dark alley u donkey ******" - Lt-Kirby2007

User avatar
DTRemenak
General
General
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:54 am
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Post by DTRemenak » Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:33 pm

Mmkay, this is no longer productive (if it was in the first place).

Locked