Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

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Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by -roo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:15 pm

Here is a subject that most gu players request due to the new rules on Sigonasr2's server. I think they are a waist and gu players shouldn't be treated that way because he has a problem with gu. There is lots more but lets let other people share what they got. For people who don't yet know his new server rules which are only for league matches or fun matches they are: (exact words)
1)You may only send a message once every 10 minutes.
2)You may only send a message up to 40 characters long.
3)You will be auto banned for any mention of matching , fun matching, or any league.
Your best option is to just play without talking. Or simply leave, Or even leave the GU league. ;)

Please share.
Last edited by -roo on Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by mdskpr » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:58 pm

I have to disagree. Sure these rules are unfair to some(namely those who want to talk). But sigonasr has every right to ban anyone he wants(here): http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3552 Also, it is perfectly logical that sigonasr does not want people talking on his servers(it can be very distracting to those racing on his jumping maps or marathons). Giving GU players a lower limit on how much they can talk is also logical. League players are the most talkative. And thus it is necessary to put a different limit on how much they can talk.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Black Mage » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:18 pm

Just like said on the discussion at the HIX server today this can be connected to some sort of GU hatred? Me my selves when I went to one of his servers earlier today and got those rules thrown right in my face I felt discriminated. That because the rules clearly says that you have been identified as a member of the GU league and only the GU league. If he is going to have those kind of rules on his servers it should be fore ALL players and not a specific group. shouldn't there be at least some sort of standard rule from the bz administration saying that this isn't allowed. If Sigonasr2 wants a rule to only speak once per 10 minutes and only 40 characters long it should be for ALL the players that plays on the server. Or ban players talking about league questions but not limit their rights to talk. Just to set up a rule to not speak about leagues?

If you now think that it's his server and he can do whatever he wants whit it remember that he got a server IN the game the server isn't the game. And if there now would be a standard rule for servers to not have specific rules for a group of players the server owner should follow those rules. Can't this be seen like some sort of GU racism?

EDIT: This post where already begun to be written while MDSKPR submitted his post that's why it doesn't contain any response to the earlier post.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by FangUp » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:23 pm

Omg you may talk this low on Sigonasr2's maps? thats bad -.- i mean who would want a map that you cant communicate on it like: "Gj", "ns" , "Genooo" or like general talk about things....in one point i agree about having silence would bring better results, but omg this is a game for having a good time not a real need to do thing O: ( but i agree to have silence on Sigonasr2's map as long as it stays ONLY on his maps ).
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by mahem1 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:29 pm

It is all Sig's choice on who he wants to talk on his server. Kinda the same how The Leagues don't let people that are not in the Global Group talk.
And there is a price for it. I liked his servers especially QBert and his RaceTrack Map. But I don't think I'll go back if I can't even talk.
"Your best option is to just play without talking. Or simply leave, Or even leave the GU league." So guess my best option is "Or simply Leave". :(
Maybe if you know Sig, and he know you are responsible, you could ask him to be whitelisted...
Black Mage wrote: And if there now would be a standard rule for servers to not have specific rules for a group of players the server owner should follow those rules.
I would say that would be taking away his rights. But that is just my opinion. Still just the same as The Leagues.

All I would ask is that there be a brief reason why he evidently doesn't like GU people.
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Tane » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Hello all, Hello Sigonasr2

First of all, I think this is a very serious topic, and all I am going to say in this post is my very personal opinion, and I don't intend to offend anyone and I hope none feels offended by this.

I both have a question and a respond.

My question, which I think most players have, is: Why, Sig, why the heck are you doing this? I talked to you earlier today, and our conversation lead to the impression, that all those new rules, all those plugins and scripts, all that are components of a very detailed plan which you appear to have. But I wounder what the aim of such a plan could be.
In our conversation, you said that you expected to loose your friends. This drives me crazy. You appear to like BZFlag very much. You own at least 7 servers yourself. You already created lots of maps. You really were an enrichment for the BZF-community. That's why I believe you really like BZFlag. And this makes me wounder really hard, why you accept loosing your BZFlag-friends for the realization of your plan. I mean - BZFlag, without of any friends? That really is no fun!
I assume you will - sooner or later - read this post. I hope you will read it. And I hope you can and will answer me this question: Why? I don't get it!

The respond I have is my very personal respond to what you are recently doing, sig. I neither like the new rules, nor the new scripts, nor the dozens of bans which have recently taken place on your server. I have been kicked by you, and some time later I have been banned for mentioning one of the lots of forbidden words. As far as I can see, I am banned from your server for 7 days from now. This is crazy!
There are many BZFlag-leagues already. There are many servers. All of those servers and leagues want a high activity. They want many members. There are some leagues, which try to steal players and activity from other leagues. Take XLeague for example - XLeague is the first league which clearly states (what btw. I neither like nor mind) that arranging matches for other leagues on XLeague-servers is unwanted.
In my opinion, this is a annoyance.
But what you are doing, the rules, the plugins, the bans, by this you go way overboard!
This really poisons the climate of BZFlag. It arouses hatred! It is not nice for any of us. And I really don't like it.
I am quite certain of you liking BZFlag. And I don't get why you are doing this. But I can say that there is no possible reason justifying your actions.
At the moment, almost nobody can force you to stop this. But I assure you, I don't want hatred to be aroused and BZFlag's climate to be poisoned, and I will go far to prevent this. You - in my opinion - crossed the line.
It seems we can't stop you for now, but if you don't stop yourself, I, and I doubt that I will be alone, will take action. If you don't quit banning other (in my opinion innocent) players from your servers, I might e.g. raise the question of banning you from other servers.

Anyhow, I hope there is a peaceful solution for this problem, which is causing lots of trouble.
I considered you a friend of mine. We played lots of matches together in ducati-league, we lost together and tied up together and won together, and I kind of liked you. You might have kicked me and your server might have auto-banned me, but it still is not to late to save our friendship.

Your recent actions are neither good for me, nor for BZFlag, and I doubt they are good for you. Please stop it, or at least tell me: Why?

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by FangUp » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:44 pm

Tane, i did not have time to read what you posted but, i just got banned for 1 week on Sigonasr2's new jumping skillz map...now this is overflow dude truly how do you expect to peoples play on such a map!?
sigonasr2, cool map but in my opinion, waste of time. only you and kris will play it seems... Do not be too rough on everything, rather suggest something like this: a "h" button makes flags not seen on radar, how about "c" would cancel the seeing of chat? so those who do not want that just press c? i thin my suggestion will attract more people to your new map, or if you made that on all your maps, than on all on them.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Flag Alert!!! » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:22 pm

@FangUp

There already is a toggle console button - I think "Q" or "W," not sure which. As for the topic at hand, I don't care much for the rules as I AM a member of GU but I don't play often. However, they are his rules to enforce and they are his own servers. I have always loved his servers and plug-ins and to be honest, too much chatting CAN be obnoxious. Though the limits he set might be very large, they aren't hard to abide by for me because I love his servers and I'll sacrifice some talking to have fun.

So yes, his standards are very high, but not impossible to abide by and by all means they are his right to enforce.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by allejo » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:23 am

Stop hating on sigonasr2's server. MULTIPLE games have been disrupted on MULTIPLE servers because league players have come and advertised official matches or fun matches. A lot of servers have the policy that advertising other servers or league matches are not allowed, this rule is rarely enforced. sigonasr2 has taken it into his own hands to make sure that this rule is enforced on his server. Having a map being very popular and very active and then league players come to kill it by taking players is very disappointing when the map dies because of that. I have nothing against GU league, but their players are the ones that often disrupt games because of matches. It is sigonasr2's server, his rules, his enforcement; if you don't like it, play somewhere else or if you like the map, play by his rules.
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by JUR » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:16 am

Not only league members disrupt matches allejo, I have frequently seen players asking others to leave the server they are on to join missile war or zigurat. It's really annoying when you're playing with 6 people on a server, and suddenly 3 of them leave. But please dont forget players may have their own opinion. The reason why players are leaving is most likely because they think another server would be more fun,.. and why wouldn't they think that?
As long, the invitings for league matches or joining other maps stays in private chat it should stay allowed.
Even though I agree with sigonasr2 it's annoying, I dont think discriminating league players is a solution..
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by mahem1 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:50 pm

We need to set a moral standard that this is unwanted.
Treat it like camping, teamkilling, spawn killing, etc.Because it does ruin it when half your players leave. Yeah I guess using private chat is fine, how else would you your teamies to match?
But making it too all league players? I have seen just as many non league player steals.
Maybe change it to something more like nagware so it will announce to the whole server that you don't like people stealing players of your server when people start talking about it.
Be the first one to start this mind set! :D
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by dereliction of duty » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:47 pm

LOL, this is funny. You all are acting like this is the U.S. and you all are able to vote on what happens on anybodies server.

While I've always been partial to less chat, more game play - my opinion doesn't mean squat.

It's sigonasr2's server. Period.

If his rules bring down BZ or the league, so be it.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Tane » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:15 pm

ttfkad wrote:LOL, this is funny. You all are acting like this is the U.S. and you all are able to vote on what happens on anybodies server.

While I've always been partial to less chat, more game play - my opinion doesn't mean squat.

It's sigonasr2's server. Period.

If his rules bring down BZ or the league, so be it.
Dear ttfkad,

I can assure you that I neither think this is U.S. nor are we all able to vote on what happens on anybodies server. What I am saying is, that there are many possible ways to take influence on what's going on on servers. You can e.g. support a specific server by playing lots on it, or you can simply boycott a server.
Besides, I am not from the USA.

You are right - It is sigonasr2's very own server. But that doesn't mean he can do just anything he wants. I don't know where the server is located, but I assume it is located within a country. And - as far as I know - in almost all countries the content hosted by a server is subject to the laws and regulations of that country. Sigonasr2 has to obey those laws and regulations.

Within most countries, discrimination is forbidden.

I don't accuse sigonasr2 of violating any laws. I don't even know what the laws of the country his server is located in are like.

But I am saying that server owners can't just do anything they want.

Tane

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by JeffM » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:33 pm

Tane wrote: You are right - It is sigonasr2's very own server. But that doesn't mean he can do just anything he wants. I don't know where the server is located, but I assume it is located within a country. And - as far as I know - in almost all countries the content hosted by a server is subject to the laws and regulations of that country. Sigonasr2 has to obey those laws and regulations.

Within most countries, discrimination is forbidden.

I don't accuse sigonasr2 of violating any laws. I don't even know what the laws of the country his server is located in are like.

But I am saying that server owners can't just do anything they want.

Tane
A server is considered private property, the laws you are talking about are for businesses and other public physical PLACES (not hardware or internet connections). He can do whatever he wants. It is the same as him being able to decide who he lets into his house. There are many examples of internet sites that limit who they allow to connect (Every pay site in the world) that are well within the laws and regulations of the countries they operate in. From the law's standpoint those that get in are just lucky he allows it.

Even this site limits who can access it so you would be saying we are breaking the law too and that is not the case.

If you don't like the server, don't play there, it is that simple. There are hundreds more.
Last edited by JeffM on Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by GigaG » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:16 pm

Yeah - i got banned for mentioning GU league. I hate Sig's server rules!!!

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by FangUp » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:32 pm

I got banned for just saying "Hi" lol wth...
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by kierra » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:40 pm

I know these new rules aren't pleasant for any who enjoy playing on sig's many servers and they come as a shock to many. But, the fact remains that these servers are sig's and as server owner he can set the rules as he decides.

If you go there and break any of his rules.....you already know the consequences - no need to come whining here or complaining on any other servers or to other players about it. The choice was yours....take responsibility for your own actions.

I don't claim to understand why these rules were put into effect or to know what prompted this action...but bottom line is it's sig's server, sig's rules.

If you think about it....there are reasons for some of the rules: There are some players that talk to excess in public chat and any public chat can cause a disturbance in match concentration (that is true for gu and duc leagues as well).
Coming to a server and drawing away players to play a match is annoying for those left behind on a now empty server but is a plus for those wanting to match. I don't condone either side, I've been on both sides and know how both feel.

I'm sorry things have come to this point on sig's servers, but there is nothing that can be done about it unless he changes his mind. This I do know: Calling him to task in rude ways won't get it changed.
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by SkillDude » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:21 pm

While on the subject of the new plugin,

Thank you all for testing and finding issues with the plugin. One clarification that may be twisting this a bit more is that some players start with the greeting "hi guys" and get immediately removed. I am not under the impression that anything you say is bad. The thing to notice is that the word guys has the word GU in it, therefore causing a ban. I have unbanned any players that have been banned in this manner and it will be whitelisted in the plugin. I also plan to add callsign filtering and motto string filtering to further prevent these issues also. Finally, under no case should you purposely say GUys or GU-ys or things like that. That will get you immediately removed.

I hope that clarifies any issues with the plugin.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by GigaG » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:56 pm

I could contend with these rules if you did some things-

Make it 3 strikes - somebody might accidentally press the shift key too long and write Hi GUys.

Also, please lift the 10-minute rule. The whole community is begging you.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Flag Alert!!! » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:10 am

Actually I'm not ;) I think enough has been said on this topic, though, so I'll simply say what's been said multiple times: His servers, his rules.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Bullet Catcher » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:22 am

Even a penguin knows that arguing guarantees misguided dialogue, so hold your tongue.

Do not feel disgusted or guilty that a singular server mogul has begun to extinguish league language as if it were a fungus or plague. I have a gut feeling that most of my colleagues (including Ziggurat) figure that even a rougue should be allowed to fire his gun and create intrigue without having to languish in the gutter.

The server list gushes with regular maps configured so any guy can play without guessing about vague or ambiguous linguistic regulations.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by dereliction of duty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:45 am

In some ways, this is good entertainment. And it should be happening here, not while in the Battlefield.

Though some may object to this discussion happening here, as I said before, less chat - play more, at least on the field.

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Bambino » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:42 pm

His bandwidth, his server, his rules. If you don't like it, don't play there. If you want to play there, abide by the server owner's rules.

I did something like this also, except I set up a language filter that would block league related terms and phrases. I did this because the servers were struggling to keep players. If a league player would come on and tell everyone "match here blah blah blah" then 75% of the players would leave to watch or play in said match. All the other players would get bored and leave.

Stop whining about something you can't change.
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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by Frank The Tank » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Interesting debate or scary debate?
To understand what the issues are and how they are expressed.
Players on one hand are trying to understand how can a server owner dictate to all how whom are permitted on it and the restrictions that are placed on those supposedly identified as disruptive, ie GU league, verse other players whom believe the server owner has every right to dictate terms.

There are some key points
Jeff M has identified one as
"A server is considered private property, the laws you are talking about are for businesses and other public physical PLACES (not hardware or internet connections). He can do whatever he wants."

This is a view I believe to be wrong as this is a social network site. Property rights therefore are designed for the whole community not an individual. But alas BZ administrators and owners can either choose to let individuals dictate terms or can actually decide what is for the greater good of the whole BZ community.
Regardless, private property is owned and held in ownership under rules, a private property owner does not have the right to do whatever they choose. Otherwise we would be in an Anarchy state, Is BZ an Anarchy state?

Jeff goes on to say
..."From the law's standpoint those that get in are just lucky he allows it."

But Jeff you are BZ, it's your community along with all the other players who share it with you.



This the leads to another key point that any free minded person should be up in arms about regardless of whether or not they are in a League.

"You have been identified as a player of the GU League"
....and goes as on ending in ....'Or even leave the GU league'


Here is what the United Nations has to say
"Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group."

".... prejudice is manifested through attitudes and discriminatory practices and unjust charges by the mere fact that people are part of a particular social group."

mHmmm

If I were an owner of another site where sig was an Admin how would I know that sig hasn't brought with him the same attitude to my map? As an example, most if not all sites would see prejudice and discrimination as a ban-able offense. So is sig going to prejudice League players more than others??

But hold on, Jeff said that is okay if you own your own server. You can make up your own rules.

Well, as one voice in our BZ community, I register my protest at the use of discrimination and prejudice

Found this in Wikipedia
"Marxists define private property as the right of an individual or group of individuals, to exclude others use of an object. In its undeveloped form, private property is the simple relation of the individual to the natural world in which their individuality finds objective expression."

And Kierra writes
"If you go there and break any of his rules.....you already know the consequences - no need to come whining here or complaining on any other servers or to other players about it. The choice was yours....take responsibility for your own actions.


We as players and as a social network site, we choose to be here, because it is fun, we want to have fun, we enjoy for the most part interaction with others and the competitive nature of BZ.
We need owners and BZ administrators to take action and fight prejudice and discrimination in all it's forms.. to quote kierra ...The choice was yours....take responsibility for your own actions."

Step up BZ admin, it's your show too.

One last point, re Tane's sentiment of sig in taking measures to an extreme. Yes it would be nice to hear from sig. I doubt that he will offer a complete explanation. However we can only but ask of him. In the meantime BZ community should voice and be concerned how this is handled.

Hello anarchy??

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Re: Debate on Sigonasr2's Server Rules.

Post by JeffM » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:18 pm

Frank The Tank so I can come into your house whenever I want and do whatever I want, cool, I've always wanted to see how my rifle works on a couch :)

Thankfully that is not the way the rest of the world works. The law does not recognize "social media" or any kind of social contract (facebook bans people ALL THE TIME for tons of reasons). A website is not considered a public place. There have been case rulings that deal specifically with this (some guy tried to sue a site for banning him) and the courts ruled that server owners can do whatever they want and that users do not have any inalienable rights to use somebody else's hardware and software over the internet. Yes that is what you are doing by going to a site, using someone else's computer ( this is why all the hacking laws are prosecutable, you can't just come and use my stuff with out my permission). This is the basis for all Internet hosting and commerce. With out it the entire system would crumble and be useless, since it means that I have rights to install whatever I want on your personal computer since it is broadcasting packets over a public internet (the ones you used to post here).

Is it Anarchy? Sure for some definitions of the term. There is nothing preventing me from doing whatever I want on my systems, and the same goes for you. But what you can't do is go and apply your rules to my systems, there is a concept of ownership, so that aspect is not similar to your traditional anarchy. Your traditional anarchy degenerates in a bullying "might makes right" system and that is not what we have here.

It is more similar to your your modern "free" society. "Do whatever you want with your own stuff, just don't affect other people's rights to do the same thing"

I am not BZ, technically Tim is (he owns it), and yes BZ is somewhat pointless with out a community. That's why everyone is nice enough to let people use the servers by default with out asking. But that does not mean that they can not set rules, or they are not owned. It just means they allow access by default and deny as needed.

Sig was NEVER banning people just for belonging to a group, he was banning them for breaking his posted rules. Your UN guidelines (not that they EVEN apply here) allow for a cafe to ask a specific person to leave, regardless of race, creed, color, etc.. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" recognize that sign? Sig hag posted rules, people were caught in his rule plugin, he banned them. He didn't want the distraction in chat for his games. Heck he could configure the plugin to make every person say "I am a teapot" and that's be fine, it'd just be a feature of the software you have chosen to use when you connect to his machine. His current featureset includes "connection will be terminated when the characters G and U are sent over TCP", why is it his fault if you don't find that useful? Use some other software that you configure if you don't like it.

That is his right to do on his machine, just as it is my right to say "I won't allow anyone with pink hair into my house", that is my right, and NO law like that can be used for you to force entry into my home.

If the laws didn't allow for servers to decide who has access, I'd shut down every single one of the bzflag public services and the entire project in a heartbeat, because then some spammer could force his way to stay on the forums just by saying he's Jewish. These laws and rules are here to protect that.

The fact that you feel entitled to use his machine as you see fit is the scary part.

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