Issues.

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iObserve
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Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 7:33 am

"BZFlag - Good clean fun.... sorta"

That has been Bz's motto for as long as I can remember. But lately I have noticed that it is not true anymore. One map in particular, Apocalypse, is a very big culprit for this change. The fact that swearing is allowed, and if you say "Watch your language" it will tell you its allowed... But also makes your name say something nasty, and inappropriate. Now if I were a parent, I would NOT let my kids play on this server. Nor would I suggest the GAME to anyone. I have been on Bz for quite awhile, and have always appreciated the cleanliness on it... But it has gone very far down on my level of respect. The cussing, the calling people noobs and just being a jerk to them... and the rejoining when your team is losing... Not cool, or fair. There is no sportsmanship. No one who is new will continue to play BZFlag if "Apocalypse" is the first server they go to. They will get insulted, torn down, and cussed at.

I am very ashamed, and disgusted with much of BZFlag behavior. As are multiple others I have talked to. I will not continue to support, or play this game if things like this are allowed. I have better ways to spend my free time, then to listen to jerks who mouth off at anything or anyone. It is rude, and unacceptable.
Last edited by iObserve on Thu May 17, 2012 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Issues.

Post by SkillDude » Thu May 17, 2012 7:42 am

If you do not like it, don't go to that server, it's really that simple. The server itself has been known to always do that and nothing can prevent it.

Have you even taken a look at other threads? Reminds me exactly of this one:

http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17868

I suggest you read over all of it as the points you have made have all been covered before. And seriously, it's your choice to play there. Just because it's popular doesn't mean you have to play there, start up another map, there are lots of other great ones waiting.

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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 7:55 am

Read it... still find it a disgrace to BZFlag in general, whether I play there or not. Freedom of speech is one thing... That is another.
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Re: Issues.

Post by SkillDude » Thu May 17, 2012 8:22 am

Not really. You along with your so called others find it disgraceful. If everyone found it disgraceful, it would be abandoned. Unlike what you wish to make of BZFlag, that is not what they are doing. They will run it however they want, regardless of whether you find it disgraceful or not. I do not understand why you had to go on this forum, type up two paragraphs worth of what you think of BZFlag just because you and a couple of your so called others think the server is "rude and unacceptable".

Okay, this is your opinion, why are you expressing it here and why do you think anything can be done about it. I hope you get it now. Just play, deal, or leave, but no need to start up what has already been thoroughly discussed (I bet you read less than 5% of that thread) and just because you think it's a bad influence to the game does not mean everyone needs to know. I have opinions about this game and others too, but I don't need to start up debates in this forum about my opinions.

There are many underlying factors than what you just discussed for this topic, and there's no need to go into them again since they have been flushed out already. And please note, just because a few players show bad sportsmanship does not mean the game is dying or going down all of a sudden. You want to influence and change the community? How about you try and show some respect for what it has become and ask around for why things are now the way they are; instead of making direct statements and immediately drawing conclusions?

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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 8:45 am

FYI: I read the whole thing.
And: There are others that dont like this. I'm not just talking.

I have been around awhile, I am not guessing at the decline of players on BZFlag, I know there is. I also know a lot of WHY people left is language, accusations, and bad sportsmanship by the so called "few". I would love to see BZFlag grow again, but not if those kinds of servers are what are "encouraged". I do Not condone, or Respect what it has become in the least. And, I will not.

Maybe if we focused on cleanliness, good sportsmanship, and having fun (not concerned about your teams winning or losing... although there is a place for that). I think a lot of this would vanish. Rejoining would, because it wouldn't be tolerated, as would the tearing down of newer players. I dont have to play on Apocalypse, true. BUT it is the most active, so where do you think new players will go? How will they be treated? And, from that treatment, will they continue to play?
I can silence as many people as I want, but that shouldn't be needed.

I am not just drawing conclusions, I have thought about this. I have observed for quite awhile.
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Re: Issues.

Post by Jacko H » Thu May 17, 2012 9:38 am

Maybe there should be a warning that the server is e.g. M RATED.
Because on tv people under 16 cant watch shows with swearing and stuff like that.
and you can play bz from as young as you like.
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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 am

Jacko H wrote:Maybe there should be a warning that the server is e.g. M RATED.
Because on tv people under 16 cant watch shows with swearing and stuff like that.
and you can play bz from as young as you like.

That is a good idea actually!
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Re: Issues.

Post by dereliction of duty » Thu May 17, 2012 10:45 am

Yeah I read it, and I have been around since 2000 or so.

going to quit? Don't let the door you know what...

I do commend you however that *if* you were a parent you wouldn't let your kids play *on that server*...that just means you are doing your job as a parent *should* do, it's not up to the ppl here that develop, err, used to develop ;) BZFlag.

So you're saying that Darth's servers are slipping cash under the table to support the development/advertising/etc for BZFlag? Hmmmm... I don't think so. And you are saying that what ever happens on the mofo (<----- someone tell me again, what does that stand for? hmmmm) is what BZFlag is all about?

Wow, I gotta get out more.

Basically it's an adult server there. Instead of complaining come up with a sure fire way of not allowing under 21 to play there.

Carry On and see you on the battlefield.

edit, oh yeah, this is a game website - I for one have no interest in reading anything religious on here. To Each Their Own, but don't push it down my throat.

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Re: Issues.

Post by blast » Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 am

Hey Gollum, don't try to push your "morals" onto everyone else. Just be content with the fact that we'll go to "your" hell someday.

Games that have online interaction do not rate the online interaction. So even if we had our game reviewed by an official ratings body like the ESRB, it would be rated "E for Everyone", with a disclaimer that online interactions are not rated.

In any case, perhaps you need to go play some other online games with voice chat to realize that the "issue" in BZFlag isn't really that bad. :P
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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 11:08 am

DEFenseMAN wrote: edit, oh yeah, this is a game website - I for one have no interest in reading anything religious on here. To Each Their Own, but don't push it down my throat.
Where was religion in this???
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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 11:11 am

blast wrote:Hey Gollum, don't try to push your "morals" onto everyone else. Just be content with the fact that we'll go to "your" hell someday.
Not pushing morals on anyone Blast, just bringing up the fact that bzflag has become quite lax in the language department, and am not to sure if that is a "good" thing or not. And as for go to my hell? Does not make any relation to this, and no sense whatsoever. So I shall disregard whatever that was supposed to mean.
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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 11:14 am

DEFenseMAN wrote: So you're saying that Darth's servers are slipping cash under the table to support the development/advertising/etc for BZFlag? Hmmmm... I don't think so. And you are saying that what ever happens on the mofo (<----- someone tell me again, what does that stand for? hmmmm) is what BZFlag is all about?
I also dont know where you got this from??? Slipping cash?
I'm just saying, as the top on the list... yes first impression. I'm not saying it is ALL of BZFlag, but could very well be the first impression of BZFlag.
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Re: Issues.

Post by blast » Thu May 17, 2012 11:21 am

Host and promote your own server then.
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Re: Issues.

Post by mahem1 » Thu May 17, 2012 11:30 am

I don't know why so people make such a big deal out of things like this. If you are playing on servers like mofo's for the gameplay than just lay low and have fun, nobody will bother you. If you are going there for the company, then you should go someplace else.
Also this whole topic is direct to one(maybe two) server. I don't know about you, but 2 out of 150 doesn't seem like "much of BZFlag['s] behavior". In the same way, I doubt very many parents or new players would only check out 1 server then make an assumption about the whole game. Plus mofo servers have very strict, and easily acquired rules. So anyone who can /help should know that they aren't just being lazy.
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Re: Issues.

Post by dartman » Thu May 17, 2012 2:49 pm

I can kind of see where Gollum was coming from, but I wouldn't blame it on the server(s), just a certain small percentage of particularly vocal idiots, and with the decline of the overall number of BZFlag players, that percentage has gone up. There are definitely some complete douchebags in BZ, I'm not going to lie--but I'd say most of them tend to stick to Apocalypse, so just play on different servers instead and you can help make them get more popular.

As for language, I actually kind of like Mofo's policy. I'm not one to support censorship, as long as no one is actually using the swear words offensively (if the mere sight of certain English words is offensive to you, then maybe you should think about why that is). The only problem is that it seems that whenever someone on Mofo swears, they do it with the sole intention of cursing someone out. It almost never seems to be done in a more friendly manner. I mean, I think it's great that we have at least this one server that lets players speak freely, but sometimes it seems like the BZFlag community just isn't ready for something like that.

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Re: Issues.

Post by iObserve » Thu May 17, 2012 3:14 pm

dartman wrote:I can kind of see where Gollum was coming from, but I wouldn't blame it on the server(s), just a certain small percentage of particularly vocal idiots, and with the decline of the overall number of BZFlag players, that percentage has gone up. There are definitely some complete douchebags in BZ, I'm not going to lie--but I'd say most of them tend to stick to Apocalypse, so just play on different servers instead and you can help make them get more popular.

As for language, I actually kind of like Mofo's policy. I'm not one to support censorship, as long as no one is actually using the swear words offensively (if the mere sight of certain English words is offensive to you, then maybe you should think about why that is). The only problem is that it seems that whenever someone on Mofo swears, they do it with the sole intention of cursing someone out. It almost never seems to be done in a more friendly manner. I mean, I think it's great that we have at least this one server that lets players speak freely, but sometimes it seems like the BZFlag community just isn't ready for something like that.

I think you just explained much better, at what I was trying to get at. :)
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Re: Issues.

Post by L4m3r » Thu May 17, 2012 3:26 pm

This topic has already been beaten to death in the thread that sigonasr2 mentioned, but I'd like to touch on the "sportsmanship" bit.

There is a lot of idle (and sometimes vulgar) trash-talk on Planet Mofo and similar servers. Most of the time, I wouldn't call it serious. it's a by-product of the informal atmosphere there- people are more likely to type out whatever expletive crosses their mind after they get shot, or whatever. I rarely encounter people who seem genuinely angry, usually it's just people messing around. It is a game, after all. To some, swear words are just words, and their use is not meant to imply anything strong or hateful.
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Re: Issues.

Post by Castle Crasher » Thu May 17, 2012 3:38 pm

Going off of what L4m3r said... I agree, but there have been multiple times for me in past few days that cussing has been directed at me. For asking them not to cuss. I personally do take offence to it whether aimed at me or not. I dont mind on a FFA server if the D* word comes out, or S***, but calling people F*ing noobs, or F**ers.. I find that very innapropriate...

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Re: Issues.

Post by joevano » Thu May 17, 2012 4:50 pm

My advice is to not play on PlanetMofo. Play on servers that have a good management staff AND strong language policies that do not put up with the behavior in your complaints. [I am not saying that PlanetMofo does not have a strong management staff (they have one of the very best), just a lenient language policy.]

BZFlag (the project) is not in the business of policing servers. It is in the business of developing the code (arguably) for the game and providing "some" services in support of the game. There are some rules related to the use of those services, such as not running a cheat server or using bots to get your server on the top of the list. But the actual running of a BZFlag server is up to the server owner/admin team. They are the ones who foot the bill and they can run their server any way they please. They pay the bills to keep their server up. Believe me, those costs are not insignificant for the more popular servers.

The experience you have on a server is determined by the community (read YOU) not by the BZFlag project, or even the server owner/admin team. If a large group of users likes the way a server is run (maps, admin team, lag, etc) then they vote that that server is appropriate for the community. If you personally don't like that server you vote against it by not playing there. PlanetMofo has been at the top of the list for years! The community has voted! It is appropriate for a large portion of the community. That being said there is a large portion of people who DON'T and WON'T play there, so be it. Your only option for changing things is to not play where you don't agree with the way the server is run.
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Re: Issues.

Post by Mopar Madness » Thu May 17, 2012 6:03 pm

you're trying to blame the game for the actions of a server, that's like accusing the gun company for a murder cause their gun was used in the shooting. This is an issue between you and PlanetMofo that needs to be handled between you and PlanetMofo, not you and BZflag.

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Re: Issues.

Post by JeffM » Thu May 17, 2012 10:14 pm

Gollum
1) Religion was brought into it by your signature and general tone of the message. If this was not your intent, then sorry, that's the way it was taken by many. This is the nature of text based communication.

2) I am curious what your expected reaction was? Were you hoping that the project would shut this server down? Or the community boycott it? I am curious to know how you think the community servers and the project are linked.

3) While Mopar Madness' analogy is crude and excessively violent, and poor since there IS regulation on guns, he is correct in the spirit of what he's trying to say.. A better analogy would be that the Firefox group is not responsible for making sure you don't see a web page you don't like.

4) We have tools that can be employed by parents with children to limit access. They just have to be employed by a parent who is willing to be involved with a child's online interactions. Personalty I think all parents should be very involved in any interaction a child has.

5) A rating system has been discussed, It has implementation issues in how it is maintained, and current project resources as well as community size do not make it feasible for a project this small. This doesn't mean it's not a bad idea, it's just that we can't really do it. We can't even make an update release to support the current version on Linux.

DEFenseMAN
Be nice, there is no need to be rude. The OP is probably just confused on how the project interacts with the community.

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Re: Issues.

Post by I_Died_Once » Fri May 18, 2012 5:54 pm

My first instinct is to come here and shout "sour grapes!" and "haters gonna hate!"

This horse has been brutaly beaten so many times, poor thing. Not to dredge it all up again, I just want to say to Gollum that the core and original intent behind the open language policies were not specifically designed to make the most offensive language server ever, just for the sake of four letter words. Its has more to do with not wanting to be the thought police, not wanting to have to always be up in people's business, and yes, freedom of speech. Though we have players and even admins from all four corners of the world, at heart, its an American server... You got your freedom of speech. You still can't come on with the hate speak, you can't threaten other players, you can't threaten public people/figures - I mean, there is "the line" and few people cross it.

Planet MoFo is about innovation, its about hard-core gameplay, fast action, no shot limits, b***s-to-the-wall-action. We offer extra points for capturing the flag, we have flags that no one else has, a stats system, custom geno-scoring - all are things no other server on the blessed server list has. THIS is why, I think, we have more people on a consistent basis then any other outfit hosting a game these days. We interact and listen to the players - but more than that, we're the biggest fans of the game. We made the game we would want to play. You gotta do better than four letter words to get at us. So what if we do have our hands in the devs pockets, and league play, and all sorts of advertising? I'd still like to land a corporate sponsor someday!

Its the people, not the medium they are using. I see it as a reflection of society and humanity as a whole. Go read the comments section of any local newspaper that enables them. Its enough to make you lose all faith in your fellow man. Just about every other game has its share of the same type of player. Aside from the proper parenting, which, has already been discussed, you really shouldn't be logging in to video game servers with your heart on your sleeve. Don't put yourself out there like that. Its not the Apocalypse itself - people are mean. Period. Ignore it or be mean back. You're just begging to have your feelings hurt.

Since religion somehow floated to the top of this steaming pile of discussion, let me interject his: I'm thinking that, as a Christian, you would be wanting to pray for everyone and be the good example. Jesus hung out with the sinners to lift them up - you think if Jesus were here today, he would pwn mad noobz at Planet MoFo while chatting and giving life changing observations and giving sage advice the whole while? I always thought of Christians as being full of love and compassion, not angry over petty details. Say a prayer for everyone involved and be the shining light to his path...? Christians, as a part of everyone as a whole, are alllll welcome to play and join in the conversation as long as you don't come off as having drank the kool-aid. Just don't spam, scroll, or be a 'hat in the process.

Thanks to the BZFlag Community for your continued support. Come see what Gollum's issue is all about at:
apocalypse.planet-mofo.com:4202

PS - Since I'm posting, if anyone reading this is interested, we are looking to design a new round of billboards images and we need and desperately want contributors! If you're good at graphics design, photoshop, and shooping images, please contact me.

KTHXBYE!
...This has been a recording.

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Re: Issues.

Post by dereliction of duty » Sat May 19, 2012 12:56 am

sorry I sounded rude with the door thing, I attempted to tone it down by not saying the complete statement.

I lost count of how many times people say they are going to leave because of x or y reasons and basically stated what has been said to many of those people, don't let the door hit ya on the way out - I too am included in the "I'm gonna leave because..." group and now the callsign Defman is no more because of that (Thanks to Jeff for taking care of that...more than likely due to my consistent childishness whining about the subject many yrs ago).

back on topic, as has been said many times already by many people in one form or another - that server is an "adult" server and while I haven't paid attention to the server msg's there while obs there (I usually don't play ctf but like watching), maybe that should be included in the frequent msg's the server spits out every few mins or so - would that help?

And the religion thing, Jeff stated why I mentioned that correctly, the sig. I'm a member on another forum and they recently banned all members there from having political and religious sigs or anything in their avatar having to do with those two topics, mostly because of the carry-over happening outside of the political and religious sub-forum they have (v-twin forums). I shouldn't have brought it up here really.

Again, sorry for being rude towards you Gollum.

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Re: Issues.

Post by I_Died_Once » Sat May 19, 2012 2:49 am

I take offence to Planet MoFo being labeled as an "adult" server. Oficially by the project and even here in public.

< intelligent debate >
We do not have any sort of graphic violence or depections of bloodshed. There are no pictures of naked women or dude parts. You can not come to our server and buy a beer or get a private dance. There is no killing the hooker and getting your money back. We do not depict drug use. The only difference between our servers and anyone else's - apart from our entire approach to gameplay and innovation - is our non-traditional language policy. Even then, its not like you can log on and just spew out any and everything you want. There still are limits. Our connection is less than stellar, sometimes all the awesomeness brought forth by the game itself (and maybe some plugin issues might contribute too) will occasionally crash user clients. The Apocalypse is a BZFlag version 1.7 map for crying out loud. "User generated content" does not warrant special classification, and I do not think we deserve to be ostracized with a restrictive rating just because we let people speak their minds.


I would understand the notion if you logged on and the buildings were shaped like reproductive body parts, and we had ads for triple-x magazines up on the billboards, and one-nine hundred numbers whispered to you by the server, but thats not the case. ESRB **might** (and thats a long shot) require a special warning about online play, proper internet ettiquette, and requiring your parents permission before connecting to the internet, and never to give out personal information when online - things of that nature - at BEST. But rated "M" for Mature?? - not with us lying down.
< /intelligent debate >
...This has been a recording.

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Re: Issues.

Post by dereliction of duty » Sat May 19, 2012 3:08 am

just goes to show everybody can be offended by something or another.

enjoy

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