A few thoughts on server policies

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A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:07 pm

Hi all,

It's been something I've been thinking of posting for a while now, but finally am doing it.
There's been server polices and rules which are around, but the goal is to improve them.
There's a lack of consistency in administration. (This is especially on language and server rules.)
One considers it a violation and another says it's fine, while another gives a warning.
It's easy to follow rules when they are clear and state clearly which is a violation. :wink:
Most of the rules and policies remain open to an admins interpretation of them.
The only problem is when there's a disagreement on what remains a violation by admins.
One says it's fine and the other says it's a violation and this makes it virtually impossible to follow the rules and policies. :?
Consistency with how the rules are applied and what is a violation or not is needed to keep consistency with how the are applied.
This keeps things simple, if a player doesn't like the rules and policies they can play somewhere else.
This also removes the headache on admins and prevents disagreements from happening in public and also prevents bias from happening.
Also this will help keep order on servers and give more structure to them.
The server rules should also apply to both players and admins and prevent admins from giving a bad example.
(Example: An admin might use a bit of language and a player uses it and gets banned for it.)
This is an example from how the rules are based depending on what an admin considers a violation or not.
By preventing this, it keeps order and structure and also sets a good example as the rules do not vary based on opinion and helps keep trust with players. :D
The rules can and will be followed if they do not depend based on what are an admins thoughts on the matter and are clearly set and apply to all.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Bullet Catcher » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:06 am

You neglected to tell us how to improve consistency in rule application.

For example, you could suggest that each server have exactly one admin who would presumably be more consistent than a group of them. That particular idea has some negative aspects. It would help us for you to describe both the benefits and costs of your constructive recommendations.

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:22 am

I forgot to mention that point :doh:

The lack of consistency I think is due to rules ether being vague or that they can easily be misunderstood or taken out of context.
In this sense one says that this is a violation and technically both admins can be correct on a rule.
Clearing up many areas in which it is up to an admin to decide if something requires a ban or not will help limit this inconsistency too.
So more specific terms in which an admin might take action is needed and when they are supposed to take action will help.
Rules should also be very specific and contain very detailed information on rules and violations and this leads to more structure within the system.

Also some servers lack rules which makes it impossible to know if one is violating a rule or not. :?
This also brings the case of how can an admin actually enforce a rules if a server has no official rules.
Another note to add is that some have not been exactly following the rules and what happens if they fail to observe the rules?
Some might get a warning and others get a quick ban and others might gain a mute for the same action.
The violations which happen should have a set penalty for violating them and not rely on an admins decision.
This prevents questions of if a ban was fair or unfair and prevents players from complaining that there was ban differences due to any reason.
Applying requirements to ether player or cop or admin if a violation happens will help with keeping consistency with rules.
Example: If a cop advertises a server and the rules state no advertising than they should be removed from their position until after the requirements for whatever is supposed to be applied for the violation are applied and met.
There can also be terms which allow certain whitelisted actions or events to be done and not be considered violations, but can be added to the rules.
Example: A player wishes to match and asks if players are interested in a match, they will not gain face an issue as this can be whitelisted as " players are permitted to ask for a match if wanted and this is not considered advertising."
The whitelisting of certain actions or events works well if applied to all and not only specific groups of players.(This is needed to keep consistency.)
A note also should be placed that an a cop or admin should not make a ban if not included within rules as this is based on opinion and not an actual rule.
Although there should be an except which permits a shortban if needed.
This prevents abuse from both angles as it ether is a rule or is not and prevents hearsay rules and opinions from taking control of issues.

The main cost with improving the rules is that it will lead to a size increase in rules, but the benefits are that the rules are improved and this permits less problems in keeping things in order and gives more structure to the system.

Key points
1. Make rules clearer and simpler to understand
2. The time for bans, mutes and related needs to be based on a system of if this violation has been committed than this is what is the penalty for it.
3. The decisions and application of any actions should be based on the rules and are not based on player or person.
4. Making clear what exactly is permitted and what is not.
5. No hearsay rules permitted to be grounds for actions. (If it's not written, why is it applied as if it were?)
6. An unclear rule is one which can be taken out of context and permit both players to ignore it or admins to abuse it.
7. Rules need to be cleaned and cleared up a good amount.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:52 pm

The rules you need to know to be safe from admin actions in bzflag, you should have learned in kindergarten. These rules apply no matter which server you are playing on.... in fact, they apply everywhere in life.

99.999% of players have no problems with administrative actions, because 99.999% of players are respectful of each other and play nicely. While I am all for consistency and standardization, our little system of administration has worked remarkably well over the years. Only those players who choose to test the limits of decency end up running afoul of warnings, kicks or bans. Most players are there to play and have fun, and those players don't need to have the rules spelled out to them, because the rules of fair and fun play are obvious to them. The admins are there to try to see that everyone plays fair, and has fun.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:55 pm

This logic makes sense to a good extent, but fails when the administration has oversight.

I know the admin system is to keep players in check, but what keeps the admins in check?
Notice I'm not saying we should remove rules or weaken them, but asking for them to be clearer and to remove the loopholes within them.
There's one thing I've seen too which should also be noted.
Exactly what does both the players, cops, admins and server owners roles and rights play?
The player is one to look at and follow the rules and to enjoy themselves at a server in my book.
The cop is one who has some trust and has some minor permissions, but it is limited and the follow the rules well.
The admin is the one who is supposed to set the example and to keep things in order.
The server owner has the final say in every matter and sets the structure of how the order is set.

The problem is that this only works perfectly in a perfect world and nothing is perfect which is why I'm bringing suggestions for improvements to the rules.
I see facing a ban or anything an issue if one follows the example of an admin or cop.
Also many times the rules are not applied when needed or applied late.
The thing is also when words are taken out of context and can be abused.
(People can technically follow and break the rules and admins can take them out of context and use them for admin abuse.)
I'm suggesting a whitelist to keep things in order and preventing any unclear rules.
The system needs to keep a better check on itself and by having a check there can be less complaints of how the system works.
Several rules can also be used against each other on many servers and while following one policy is breaking another.
An item should be also listed on in what event will one rule supersede another.(This allows a whitelist to be used as well.)
The nice part of this idea is what it provides in return for being applied.
War Pig wrote:While I am all for consistency and standardization, our little system of administration has worked remarkably well over the years. Only those players who choose to test the limits of decency end up running afoul of warnings, kicks or bans. Most players are there to play and have fun, and those players don't need to have the rules spelled out to them, because the rules of fair and fun play are obvious to them. The admins are there to try to see that everyone plays fair, and has fun.
This will help remove the problem of players testing the system as there's no room for it in the system and whitelist.
It's worked well, but that does not mean it's perfect and there's a few areas which it can be improved on.
War Pig wrote:The rules you need to know to be safe from admin actions in bzflag, you should have learned in kindergarten. These rules apply no matter which server you are playing on.... in fact, they apply everywhere in life.
I agree with this and my view might have been unclear or misunderstood.
Following the rules is what I'm trying to bring with this.
If the rules are not clear or are vague, they should be made clear and this helps improve consistency with them.
What is a violation to one admin is not a violation to another and to another it's a warning.
This is what I'm trying to clear up too. (Think of getting a warning from one admin and another says that it's alright.)
The rules also apply to all and the ones with permissions should set an example of them as they have been trusted with them.
So more accountability of players and admins is what I'm trying to also bring.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:56 pm

Zehra wrote: I agree with this and my view might have been unclear or misunderstood.
Following the rules is what I'm trying to bring with this.
If the rules are not clear or are vague, they should be made clear and this helps improve consistency with them.
What is a violation to one admin is not a violation to another and to another it's a warning.
This is what I'm trying to clear up too. (Think of getting a warning from one admin and another says that it's alright.)
The rules also apply to all and the ones with permissions should set an example of them as they have been trusted with them.
So more accountability of players and admins is what I'm trying to also bring.

-Zehra
Your message is long on hypothetical but short on specifics. Have you suffered from a perceived abuse by an admin? If so, issue the "/owner" command at the server in question and PM the server owner here. Bad admins do not last very long because other admins (like me) have no tolerance for them. When the Ziggurat server first appeared, the server owner appointed adminship to a truly abhorrent person, who abused the power horribly. I spoke out against him and ultimately he lost his admin privs.

Generally, some admins, like some server owners, are more permissive than others. But, as I said before, if you are not testing the limits of decency, you will not run afoul of any admin that I know. One thing every admin that I know has in common is that if you are peacefully and honestly playing your game, you will find no trouble from us. And if you are having trouble with another player, we will work with you to arbitrate it.

If you can give us some specific examples of 'admin abuse' (no need to name anyone publicly), or instances where rules are contradictory, or admins contradicting each other, then maybe we can work on resolving those issues.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Green Manalishi » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:37 pm

while i agree with war pig about the general unnecessity of extremely elaborate rules and regulations, i see one particular issue that requires a higher level of server-side standardization: the language policy. while cheating, mean behavior, spamming etc are more or less treated suitably and consistently by all admins, most discrepancy and inter-admin discussions arise from different individual attitudes towards language.

from personal experience, the bottom line of all language issues in bz comes down to one thing: is mild swearing NOT directed at people allowed or not? some of the typical words that some players and admins seem to be have an issue with are damn, hell, crap. the f word and the s word are sensibly avoided by the vast majority and/or censored by the servers anyhow (except on mofo, which has a different language policy), so maybe server owners could make a clearer statement about the level of tolerance they'd like to show towards mild language (which, again, is only supposed to be used to let off steam and not directed towards a person in the form of an insult, name calling etc). i happen to be one of the more 'relaxed' admins/players about language, but if the server owner explicitly states that he wants to keep a 100% kid-friendly, no-cussword-whatsoever-however-mild-and-whatever-the-intention server, i would totally respect that and act accordingly. in the past norang was like that and i was cool with it.

so what i think is, maybe server owners could add one more line to their server rules/guidelines about the usage of mild language not aimed at people. the announcement of this could be done in various ways, like send a forum PM to their admin squad, add a line to the nagscript that you see when you sign on to a server, reply to this very thread or any other way i can't think of right now. in the very likely case some server owners don't see this thread, admins could point it out to them. no?

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:50 pm

War Pig wrote:Your message is long on hypothetical but short on specifics. Have you suffered from a perceived abuse by an admin? If so, issue the "/owner" command at the server in question and PM the server owner here. Bad admins do not last very long because other admins (like me) have no tolerance for them. When the Ziggurat server first appeared, the server owner appointed adminship to a truly abhorrent person, who abused the power horribly. I spoke out against him and ultimately he lost his admin privs.

Generally, some admins, like some server owners, are more permissive than others. But, as I said before, if you are not testing the limits of decency, you will not run afoul of any admin that I know. One thing every admin that I know has in common is that if you are peacefully and honestly playing your game, you will find no trouble from us. And if you are having trouble with another player, we will work with you to arbitrate it.

If you can give us some specific examples of 'admin abuse' (no need to name anyone publicly), or instances where rules are contradictory, or admins contradicting each other, then maybe we can work on resolving those issues.
This might give an idea of somethings I've seen.
So here's two examples.
You're doing your own things and just enjoying the game, but one admin comes up and says you're violating a policy from the server.
After this you ask which policy it is and what you're doing wrong and what can be done to resolve it.
They don't give any policy and just because they see no reason for you doing your actions they ban you.
You've done this before without any issues and no players have given complaints about it ether.
Even what shocks you more is seeing them doing the actions for which they banned you. :?

Some servers permit bots and most of the time it's allowed to join one or two and shoot around a little.
Now according to an admin you're joining with server clients attempting to increase lag and are trying to lag cheat.
You're given a warning to stop trying to lag cheat on a server.
Nothing is on the rules which say this is a violation to join an autopilot bot and to still join as player.

Pointing areas which rules might contradict require permission from the copyright holder to post the text and contents.
As they are copyrighted and prevent use without permission unless stated otherwise. :(
Green Manalishi wrote:while i agree with war pig about the general unnecessity of extremely elaborate rules and regulations, i see one particular issue that requires a higher level of server-side standardization: the language policy. while cheating, mean behavior, spamming etc are more or less treated suitably and consistently by all admins, most discrepancy and inter-admin discussions arise from different individual attitudes towards language.

from personal experience, the bottom line of all language issues in bz comes down to one thing: is mild swearing NOT directed at people allowed or not? some of the typical words that some players and admins seem to be have an issue with are damn, hell, crap. the f word and the s word are sensibly avoided by the vast majority and/or censored by the servers anyhow (except on mofo, which has a different language policy), so maybe server owners could make a clearer statement about the level of tolerance they'd like to show towards mild language (which, again, is only supposed to be used to let off steam and not directed towards a person in the form of an insult, name calling etc). i happen to be one of the more 'relaxed' admins/players about language, but if the server owner explicitly states that he wants to keep a 100% kid-friendly, no-cussword-whatsoever-however-mild-and-whatever-the-intention server, i would totally respect that and act accordingly. in the past norang was like that and i was cool with it.

so what i think is, maybe server owners could add one more line to their server rules/guidelines about the usage of mild language not aimed at people. the announcement of this could be done in various ways, like send a forum PM to their admin squad, add a line to the nagscript that you see when you sign on to a server, reply to this very thread or any other way i can't think of right now. in the very likely case some server owners don't see this thread, admins could point it out to them. no?
This is something I've been many times confused on language policies.
There's a good lack of consistency in how it's enforced as some polices are a bit vague and depending on how one reads it the meaning changes.
The other thing is like with server advertising.
Some servers also seem to permit players asking for matching in league style or league gaming.
Now some admins say it's alright to do this and others say it's against policy.
The rules vary greatly on if it's prohibited or not and some have unclear exceptions to them. (Like if a player can ask for fm in public chat or not.)
So a clearer statement would be nice on these policies.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:16 am

Oddly we don't have server owners posting on this topic. :?
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by kierra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:48 am

Zehra wrote:Oddly we don't have server owners posting on this topic. :?
Each server owner has his own perspective on how to run his servers, the rules/admins/cops he chooses. If you have a problem on a specific server or servers or with any of their admins/cops, your best bet would be to contact each server owner individually and state your case, recommendation or complaint.

I doubt you will get one single set of rules applied by the many hosts across all the servers. They are individuals investing their own monies as they see fit. Appeal to them directly in forum pm perhaps
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:16 am

It seems you fail to read me posts and only reply to the most recent posts. :wink:
kierra wrote: Each server owner has his own perspective on how to run his servers, the rules/admins/cops he chooses. If you have a problem on a specific server or servers or any of their admins/cops, your best bet would be to contact each server owner individually and state your case, recommendation or complaint.
I'm asking for more consistency with rule applications on servers which are not based on opinions.
This is a widespread issue on many servers so this is why I'm bringing this up.
kierra wrote: I doubt you will get one single set of rules applied by the many hosts across all the servers. They are individuals investing their own monies as they see fit. Appeal to them directly in forum pm perhaps
I never said I wanted a single set of rules applied across many servers, but wanted consistency within the rules themselves.
Also to remove the loopholes which exist to allow bad administration and players from technically following while violating the rules.

A few notes.
1. Read what I've posted before and see what I'm saying on every issue as I've likely covered it before.
2. The words should be used in proper context and this will prevent misunderstanding the meaning from it.
3. Also this topic is not meant to mention players specifically or admins, but seeks to resolve issues within the system.
4. Improving the system is the goal and not applying a single set of rules everywhere as you're trying to imply.
5. Preventing abuse from both players and admins should be designed within the system and not as an afterthought.
6. Applying requirements not based on player, but more to a more structured based system.
(Shouldn't there be a structure based system instead of relying on personal opinions of admins when applying bans and related?)

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by kierra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:33 am

You are long on words and short on specifics:
War Pig wrote:Your message is long on hypothetical but short on specifics. Have you suffered from a perceived abuse by an admin?

If you can give us some specific examples of 'admin abuse' (no need to name anyone publicly), or instances where rules are contradictory, or admins contradicting each other, then maybe we can work on resolving those issues.
It's appears obvious you have had some negative experiences and thus your post. Speaking in vague generalities doesn't help. If you can't site specifics (leaving out names of those involved) here, then contact the specific server owner where you experienced or witnessed something amiss and address the issue with them.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:13 am

kierra wrote:You are long on words and short on specifics:
Well your words are short and tend to be vague.
kierra wrote:It's appears obvious you have had some negative experiences and thus your post. Speaking in vague generalities doesn't help. If you can't site specifics (leaving out names of those involved) here, then contact the specific server owner where you experienced or witnessed something amiss and address the issue with them.
The forums are not meant to bring out any issues which might effect or have effected someone personally.
This is not how problems should be addressed or stated.
This is also not a battleground in which you try to alter the topics meaning by misuse of context.

If something is amiss in many areas and can be improved, why not bring it to the forums for discussion?
Some servers even lack officially written rules which makes it all a matter of opinion.
Removing the problem of it being a matter of opinion is needed and will maintain consistency with server requirements.

Also everything needs to move within a system which keeps itself in check and does not permit players, cops or admins to run crazy.
This is what needs to be improved and once finished will help in resolving many of the current issues within the rules and policies.

Nothing is perfect and this is why I'm suggesting an improvement to the current system.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by blast » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:31 am

Zehra wrote:Some servers permit bots and most of the time it's allowed to join one or two and shoot around a little.
Now according to an admin you're joining with server clients attempting to increase lag and are trying to lag cheat.
You're given a warning to stop trying to lag cheat on a server.
Nothing is on the rules which say this is a violation to join an autopilot bot and to still join as player.
You should not be running bots on any public server. If you are doing that, knock it off.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish with this thread. The project does not run the game servers. The community runs them. Each have their own operating rules (posted or otherwise) and have their own set of leadership (which may range from a single owner to a full team of admins and cops). There will be a wide variety of cultures and personalities. Some servers will have a good admin team, some will not. If you find that a specific server doesn't have an admin team that you like, your options are to talk to the owner about your concerns or to play on a different server.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:07 am

blast wrote:You should not be running bots on any public server. If you are doing that, knock it off.
I might have used the incorrect term for referring to autopilot.
According to the rules on BZtank.net and according to section 5.1 in rules it said that one was welcomed to bring in 6 clients with autopilot. at max.
Generally it's not recommended to bring any form of automation or automated client.
(Best to run on a local server.)
blast wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish with this thread. The project does not run the game servers. The community runs them. Each have their own operating rules (posted or otherwise) and have their own set of leadership (which may range from a single owner to a full team of admins and cops). There will be a wide variety of cultures and personalities. Some servers will have a good admin team, some will not. If you find that a specific server doesn't have an admin team that you like, your options are to talk to the owner about your concerns or to play on a different server.
The thing is to try to get some sort of a consensus with what is considered violations of policies and what is not.
The area which is very grey, specifically in the area of language in which there's many opinions of what is language and what is not.
It's a bit annoying to find the policy changes based on admins and it would be nice to have consistency with it.
It would be nice to have rules cleared up like "foul language is not permitted, but this does not apply to 'crap, damn and omg' and those words are excluded from foul language category."
Instead of having admins trying to make the decisions as each will have their own opinion on it.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by blast » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:53 am

Zehra wrote:The thing is to try to get some sort of a consensus with what is considered violations of policies and what is not.
The area which is very grey, specifically in the area of language in which there's many opinions of what is language and what is not.
It's a bit annoying to find the policy changes based on admins and it would be nice to have consistency with it.
It would be nice to have rules cleared up like "foul language is not permitted, but this does not apply to 'crap, damn and omg' and those words are excluded from foul language category."
Instead of having admins trying to make the decisions as each will have their own opinion on it.
The rules do not need to enumerate that. That is something that the server owner should teach their admins. So again, if you are having issues with a specific server and you want it to be improved, try talking to the server owner. And try to be a lot more concise and specific than you've been in this thread.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:05 pm

blast wrote:The rules do not need to enumerate that. That is something that the server owner should teach their admins. So again, if you are having issues with a specific server and you want it to be improved, try talking to the server owner. And try to be a lot more concise and specific than you've been in this thread.
I might have been going too far on asking that rules should be cleared to such a large extent.
Normally I think most would expect that server owners would have mostly made it clear on how the rules should be applied, but it seems on about two or three servers this is not the case.
It's been something I've seen on a few servers, but mostly on one specific server and generally there's a wide mix of opinions on specifically language policies.
I probably should have split this topic into a few different ones and be much more specific in each one, instead of trying to bring it in several posts.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:27 pm

Zehra wrote:
So here's two examples.
You're doing your own things and just enjoying the game, but one admin comes up and says you're violating a policy from the server.
After this you ask which policy it is and what you're doing wrong and what can be done to resolve it.
They don't give any policy and just because they see no reason for you doing your actions they ban you.
You've done this before without any issues and no players have given complaints about it ether.
Even what shocks you more is seeing them doing the actions for which they banned you. :?
What, specifically, are the 'actions' you are talking about above?
Some servers permit bots and most of the time it's allowed to join one or two and shoot around a little.
Now according to an admin you're joining with server clients attempting to increase lag and are trying to lag cheat.
You're given a warning to stop trying to lag cheat on a server.
Nothing is on the rules which say this is a violation to join an autopilot bot and to still join as player.
There is almost never any reason to join bots to a server that has other players. Most often, people who join bots to a server, do so for nefarious reasons. Like to subvert the voting system, or to create chaos. As I mentioned before, admins primary objective is to make sure that everyone plays fairly and has fun. Players who are having their own "fun" at the expense of others by being abusive, even if their abuse is not specifically addressed by published rules, can expect some action from admins.

I have played this game for over 10 years, and I have never been kicked or banned for any reason other than a bad internet connection. Not one time. It's because I play honestly, and am respectful of my fellow players, (except, of course, Green Manalishi, who deserves no respect. ;) )
Pointing areas which rules might contradict require permission from the copyright holder to post the text and contents.
As they are copyrighted and prevent use without permission unless stated otherwise. :(
This, if I understand it correctly, is just a cop out. You need no permission from anyone to post specifics, and no one holds any restrictive copyright to the published rules.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Zehra wrote: The thing is to try to get some sort of a consensus with what is considered violations of policies and what is not.
The area which is very grey, specifically in the area of language in which there's many opinions of what is language and what is not.
It's a bit annoying to find the policy changes based on admins and it would be nice to have consistency with it.
It would be nice to have rules cleared up like "foul language is not permitted, but this does not apply to 'crap, damn and omg' and those words are excluded from foul language category."
Instead of having admins trying to make the decisions as each will have their own opinion on it.

-Zehra
The words you use are not as important as the context in which they are used. "Crap, you died." is completely different from "You are a crap player". One is abusive and one is sympathetic. One might solicit admin action, the other will not. We admins are charged, primarily, with making sure everyone plays fairly, and has fun. If you focus your energy on playing fairly, and having fun, you will have no problems with the admins.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:16 pm

War Pig wrote:What, specifically, are the 'actions' you are talking about above?
Observing.
War Pig wrote: There is almost never any reason to join bots to a server that has other players. Most often, people who join bots to a server, do so for nefarious reasons. Like to subvert the voting system, or to create chaos. As I mentioned before, admins primary objective is to make sure that everyone plays fairly and has fun. Players who are having their own "fun" at the expense of others by being abusive, even if their abuse is not specifically addressed by published rules, can expect some action from admins.

I have played this game for over 10 years, and I have never been kicked or banned for any reason other than a bad internet connection. Not one time. It's because I play honestly, and am respectful of my fellow players, (except, of course, Green Manalishi, who deserves no respect. ;) )
The times I joined bots was basically to pass the time while I waited for players to join.(only joined bots several times total (not several bots.), but not much more than that.(unless localhost is included it was a bit more.))
Also it wasn't the bots which really aren't good at playing, it was the autopilot one.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:51 pm

Zehra wrote:
War Pig wrote:What, specifically, are the 'actions' you are talking about above?
Observing.
So, this is your assertion? (substitutions mine)
Zehra wrote: They don't give any policy and just because they see no reason for you OBSERVING they ban you.
You've OBSERVED before without any issues and no players have given complaints about OBSERVING ether.
Even what shocks you more is seeing them doing the OBSERVING for which they banned you.
If you have been banned for simply observing, then you have been wronged. I strongly suspect there is more to the story that you are not including.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:07 pm

War Pig wrote:
Zehra wrote:
War Pig wrote:What, specifically, are the 'actions' you are talking about above?
Observing.
So, this is your assertion? (substitutions mine)
Zehra wrote: They don't give any policy and just because they see no reason for you OBSERVING they ban you.
You've OBSERVED before without any issues and no players have given complaints about OBSERVING ether.
Even what shocks you more is seeing them doing the OBSERVING for which they banned you.
If you have been banned for simply observing, then you have been wronged. I strongly suspect there is more to the story that you are not including.
It seems they didn't want me to observe or chat as observer.
It's very difficult for me to think why someone would think observing is such an issue to them.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by War Pig » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Zehra wrote:
It seems they didn't want me to observe or chat as observer.
It's very difficult for me to think why someone would think observing is such an issue to them.

-Zehra
I can think of some valid reasons why observers would be kicked or banned:

1. They are disrupting the players, or the game.
2. They are providing game intelligence to players.
3. They are attempting to draw players away to some other server.
4. They are taunting, belittling, or annoying others.
5. They are skewing or subverting the polls.
6. They are also playing with a different callsign.
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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Zehra » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:41 pm

War Pig wrote: I can think of some valid reasons why observers would be kicked or banned:

1. They are disrupting the players, or the game.
2. They are providing game intelligence to players.
3. They are attempting to draw players away to some other server.
4. They are taunting, belittling, or annoying others.
5. They are skewing or subverting the polls.
6. They are also playing with a different callsign.
None of these things were done and still a ban.
Odd thing is I've seen people do these things and still not a ban.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: A few thoughts on server policies

Post by Green Manalishi » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:54 pm

War Pig wrote: I have played this game for over 10 years, and I have never been kicked or banned for any reason other than a bad internet connection. Not one time. It's because I play honestly, and am respectful of my fellow players, (except, of course, Green Manalishi, who deserves no respect. ;) )
hey i thought we agreed to let go of the memories of 'inconveniences' in the past and start with a clean slate. :? /me fervently looks for a server where he's an admin and war pig isn't.

on another note, allejo has sent a PM where he elaborates on some rules (including language) and novelties soon to be applied on his server.

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