CTF as a sole focus

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CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:07 am

CTF is an interesting game mode, the implementation of it varies greatly by map and mode.
What if something I have considered, since it has not been "seen" or implemented before, is "CTF" as an aspect in it of itself.

What I mean by this is that CTF of today is mostly a type of version or hybrid of both FFA and CTF, but mostly FFA.
This is the result of multiple factors, but driven mostly by a combination of two factors which take away from CTF.

If we have players focusing on "what is happening", which, while needed and important, but not as important as the aspect of the objective of the game.
So we frequently see things like a bunch of small "FFA battles" or "camping" take place, while the focus of CTF is virtually none.

This leads to excessively predictable play at any given stage, as simply only a few "factors" need to actually be "seriously" considered.
(If only a few players will go for the flags in CTF, while the rest simply go for the "FFA" aspect, it is unlikely in most cases for other players to make 1 cap or more, but the majority will make none, so therefore scores will simply remain generally in line with some simple probability calculations.)

This is not fun, nor enjoyable, unless action is the goal and/or objective.
CTF is clearly not that, so it goes against the the "objective" of the mode.

So, my question is this: Is anyone interested in a CTF mode solely focused on CTF, almost entirely decoupled from the FFA aspect of the game?

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by tainn » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:11 am

If only something like a league existed. You know, one that unites.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:25 pm

This seems entirely unrelated.
How would any of the factors apply, if at all?

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by lep » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:08 am

tainn wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:11 am
If only something like a league existed. You know, one that unites.
maybe one where you can create teams? and they play other teams? in CTF battles and the team with the most caps wins? hell, we need to set this up before our idea gets snagged!

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:43 pm

Anything can be created, if there is enough interest and support to make it happen.
Tacticians will likely find it interesting, but it will be less so for strategists and observers will watch what occurs.
For some, they will generally watch until invited, for others it is when there is sufficient reason or interest and for a few, whether or not it helps or benefits them in any form.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by blast » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:35 pm

Zehra... you're describing the league that already exists... Leagues United is a CTF focused league. Both tainn and lep were pointing that out in a round about way. So explain how a league where your personal score means nothing and only capturing flags can lead to a win is not "CTF as a sole focus".
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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:48 pm

Blast, it's probably since a lot of people skim through the words or maybe my writing style.
(I probably should have chosen a different title for post as well, since it seems it introduced confusion.)
Zehra wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:07 am
What if something I have considered, since it has not been "seen" or implemented before, is "CTF" as an aspect in it of itself.
Zehra wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:07 am
So, my question is this: Is anyone interested in a CTF mode solely focused on CTF, almost entirely decoupled from the FFA aspect of the game?
While we can easily say that specified league is focused on CTF as the "sole" focus, it has a different way of reaching the goal.
The same can be said of both "HTF" mode and traditional "CTF". (Both of which would be valid examples of "CTF as sole focus" to an extent.)
Team kills are irrelevant in HTF mode. And in CTF mode, personal score is not considered the most important factor.
(But rarely does it play out as such, as players are more focused on points in general.)

In reality, it's not meant to introduce a new or existing concept, but rather a different way of accomplishing it.
The idea of how to accomplish this, is by "decoupling" the FFA aspect from CTF, so that CTF remains the only focus.

In theory, the CTF aspect is in essence moving "specified" flags towards "specified" goals. (team flags to team bases.)
Compare to for instance, AHOD of which the goal is a specified team of players remains on a specified platform.
Also, compare to "Capture the Base", in where a player attempts to reach a specific point in the map to trigger a team win.
(While both All Hands on Deck and Capture the Base can be more easily implemented in CTF mode, they can also be implemented in FFA, but perhaps not as easily or elegantly.)

By decoupling the aspect of FFA from CTF, it becomes less of players going back and forth, but rather "how do we move the flag across the map quickly?".
The idea being behind this, is to introduce more strategic approach to CTF mode, as the game play is more abstract and calculated.
This leads to while leagues may seemingly be "implementing" the same "CTF as sole focus", the way they do it is entirely different and the results achieved by both concepts are entirely different.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by tainn » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:57 pm

You ought to consider writing less and being less ambiguous with your posts.

I do not believe CTF in general needs a different game mode. Players just need a better incentive to focus on the team flags.

This matter is already covered in leagues united, since the only long-term record and statistics are based around results of matches, which are in turn solely based on the amount of team flag captures. In that regard, it is pure CTF.

Other maps, however, might not see that sort of treatment. But they do not need a different game mode for that. At the very least, I see no point, especially if you do not care to elaborate on the specifics of the mechanism behind the idea. No, they just need a visual representation. I opened up a thread about the matter, before realizing that another one had been open already.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Orange Peanut » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:00 pm

Sounds interesting! Can you clue us in on how the gameplay differs from ctf maps now?

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:07 pm

@tainn
I suppose I could use more concrete examples in my writing, but I usually do not wish to state what may be obvious.
I generally assume that if something is unclear, people will ask for clarification.

New game modes, it's something which can be nice to see, but sometimes just a few changes to a mode can improve it by many levels.
CTF incentives have been tried before with mixed results, so unless something innovative happens there, I don't really expect that much of a breakthrough to come from there.

What is unhelpful is the posts which bring up or mention leagues, despite them not being mentioned or covered in the original threads.
With all what is said of them, they are not the solution towards every problem in BZ. (Even though it isn't said as a "solution", that's what the intent appears to be.)

What can be said is that simply keeping track of matches and using the results of flag captures by team to determine statistics, is that is an overview of CTF performance regarding a specific map(s).
So even so, it's not CTF, but a statistical overview of CTF and solely CTF regarding a highly specific subset of CTF.

@Orange Peanut
Sure.

Short version:
The whole concept in a nutshell is basically the no shooting form of "Keep Away" with speed elements to create a more strategic form of play.

Long version:
Instead of CTF with shooting, it's CTF without shooting.
So "player vs player" FFA type battle before making a move does not occur.
(Since these type of battles don't occur, it's almost no "FFA aspect", so almost "solely CTF".)

The idea being that players use super flags to perform actions which play as a form of Keep Away.
(e.g. Trying to keep the flag with their teammates and away from opposing players.)
PassTheFlag plug-in seems to offer that kind of possibility, but it certainly is not optimal for this type of mode.
(As there is almost no way of "interception", so it would form almost "run" the flag, which isn't what I'm looking for.)
The idea would use some super flags form a way of "interception", but with a certain element of speed boost, so it makes it where it is possible to "catch up" to players attempting to "run" the flag.
So if teammates are not supporting the run, it will be easy to prevent. (Spawns become less abusive as now it is possible to "catch up" to the flag carrier.)
Instead of players rushing to "camp" the base, this is eliminated by being an ineffective strategy, along with a few other methods of prevention.
(One of the major annoyances in CTF is when players simply camp to either run, spawnkill or pass the flag, but it will be prevented.)
This in theory, removes almost all aspects of "FFA" type of play from CTF, creating an almost "sole CTF" type of option.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by kierra » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:55 pm

The ambiguity of your other posts finally have some clarity with this last post. Players can finally get to what you're aiming for
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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by tainn » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:00 pm

So how exactly is this mode different than a regular CTF with max shots config set to 0, or a two-way HTF?

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Orange Peanut » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:43 pm

Definitely a neat idea! Sounds kinda like a ctf rugby or something. Hard to say how fun it will be before we have more of an idea of how a match is actually played

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:14 pm

@kierra

People can easily ask for clarification or more concrete details.
(When it is asked for, it can be done.)

---

@tainn

The results of setting up said actions.
If "-ms 0" is set, without any super flags, it is about which team would get first to the flag and attempt to run it.
This would lead to where players may result in attempting to self-kill to spawn closer to the flag.

The only other flag which would allow something, would be "SteamRoller", but this would not account for speed.
Although, the "handi-cap" system could be used, but it would require extensive tinkering to ensure an enjoyable playable experience.

"UselessMines" could be done, but then again, spawn tinkering or manipulation would be needed for proper functionality.
Not to mention that this would result in "spawn camping" possibilities.

"freeCtfSpawns" could be added as an option, but than it would result in a chaotic form of "luck", which would be unpleasant for whoever is at the losing end of it.

None of this would prove satisfactory for most players.

---

By "two-way HTF", it may be in reference to either 2 way Htf or Co-op HTF.

Calculating both possibilities, the differences are as follows.

1. "2-way HTF" appears to introduce an aspect of where players of opposing teams would not "interact" with each other.
(This runs contrary to the idea of CTF, so therefore does not result in same outcome.)
2. If "HTF" is used as a form of racing, it becomes a "Race Track" type mode or map.
(This focuses on the movement of player mouse and or keyboard and spawn/run time play a major role in this.)
This results in where if the in lead does not make any mistakes while "driving", there is no way to beat them.
Which becomes a tactical and predictable level of play, which would be a different result and outcome.
3. In "Co-op HTF", it is two teams whose goal is to reach a specified point before the other team.
The result is actually AHOD style of race map and there is no method of "intercepting" or "preventing" a cap, if no shooting and no SR is enabled.
The resulting outcome is different and does not lead to the same result.
4. If "HTF" is used, it results in players "capping" their own flag.
In the idea, players will capture an opposing teams flag, which results in a different outcome.
5. Lastly, the suggested mode is possible with or without team kills being enabled or disabled, something HTF in any form cannot.(Otherwise it becomes a Racing Mode, in some form.)
(Unless as in "Co-op HTF", but this results in a different playing style of racing towards a point with all members.)

The results and outcomes are different in all cases, unless there has been something overlooked or not covered.

---

@Orange Peanut

I think there will be a few minor differences, but "CTF Rugby" sounds like a cool idea.
(A bit of a difference on the implementation of the mode and it reaches CTF Rugby status.)
Mainly wanted to see if there was any interest, before setting up something in the works.
(Looks like there is, so it will be made, hopefully ready sometime this month or the next.)

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by blast » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:03 pm

You really need to think out your ideas better before you post them. It shouldn't take multiple people prodding you for clarification and a short novel to say "What if we had a CTF mode without shooting?".
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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by etigah » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:38 pm

I can't tell if I actually like the idea of no shooting, but I think it can be done with no new plugins or much tinkering. One way is to have one burrow flag and make it impossible to access a base without it, keep opposite team flags on either base and voila. Maybe add PTF plugin on top of that.

Edit: I just remembered bzmatchball, which is pretty much what I described :-)

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by macsforme » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Driving, jumping, shooting, etc. are core mechanics of this game. The various modes/styles such as CTF exist to provide variety on those core game mechanics, not the other way around. The aspect of shooting at other players is not a distraction from the objective of CTF as you are suggesting; rather, it is an intrinsic part of the mode itself.

Yes, sometimes players ignore the objective, and yes, there are a few speciality maps where shooting is not an element, but neither of these factors IMHO call for non-shooting versions of any of our game modes. Ideas for new game modes should consist of more than adding to or subtracting from something that is already there. To me, new ideas consist of more originality, or are inspired by concepts known to work in other games, etc.

Also, I was unable to find any mention of combat in your concept, or how you would stop someone from taking your team flag, or how tanks would use abilities provided by superflags when they have to carry the team flag at the same time.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:27 am

@etigah

I like your idea, seems pretty close to mine, only a few minor differences and it is much simpler.
By PTF, do you mean Push/PlantTheFlag plug-in?
(Since that wasn't released to the public.)
Or the PassTheFlag plug-in?
(I would assume the latter one.)

---

@macsforme
The idea is to explore more of the core mechanics of the game, with the ability focus on a more specific point of the game.
This is the same as enabling or not enabling jumping, ricochet, ctf, super flags..etc

I agree it is a key point of the mode, but by no means it is strictly "required".
Similar to how some of the specialty maps have done so.
(Jumping Skills, Tank Race, Obstacle Course, BZOlympics..etc)
But by no means is this implying that you are suggesting or implying that this is required.(With regards to shooting.)

I agree and in general, new ideas tend to be more creative and more original or use aspects inspired from other games.
This idea does not fall under as such, so it may be considered "unoriginal" to an extent.
But rather, the focus is on something more innovative, rather than original.

I was hesitant to mention "combat" or something with regards to "combat" as it may have been misinterpreted or misunderstood.
The dynamics of "combat" have changed from shooting, towards team and non-team flag focus, so in essence a different form of "combat"
As in this concept, the idea of "combat" of what is seen "now" is virtually "non-existent", so therefore would likely be considered "non-existent".

A few different methods have been considered for the use of "stopping someone from taking ones team flag".
As the details are not set fully in stone, the "exact" implementation has not been fully settled on.(I still have one in mind though.)

(With regards to "stopping people from simply walking across the map with the flag.)
The following possible solutions to the problem have been calculated and ruled out:
Handicap usage via the API and Steamroller.
(Quick moving Steamroller via the handicap feature via the API.)

UselessMines
Modifications to uselessMines to reset on flag captures.
(This could lead to where teammates can create walls or blockages to prevent team flags from being run while walking safely through mine fields.)

ShockwaveDeath + Phoenix
(Players attempt to make a speed run via API and use self kills to attempt to stop or slow down flag runners, modified Phoenix and ShockwaveDeath creates new opportunities.)

Shot changing and flags.
(Disable player shots, unless they grab a super flag to shoot.)

Much of it would prove in difficulty in making an enjoyable playing experience.
Also, as much of it would be difficult to explain in a few sentences as a welcome or help message, it would pose another difficulty.

As for where "abilities" of super flags are used when a player holds a team flag.
There is no attempt to provide the ability of super flags while a player is holding a team flag.
Therefore it will not conflict with the game design.
While we can make use of the "handicap" system via the API, it would be a minor change, but this has been ruled out as well.
(Team flags could be set to make players go slower or faster, which is similar to granting an "ability" to a team flag holder.)

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by alfa1 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:44 pm

Make a hypotesis, in example "CTF maps without shooting are possible", then test it enough to convert it into a tesis: make good maps, in example one with SR on spawns with fun drawings/paths. Remember we are a small community, then the most sure is that, if you have a good idea, you will have to work mostly alone on it.

BTW, a rugby map sounds good; with SR on spawns and Pass The Flag. The only possible problem I see on sport maps is that you should use 3 colors: 2 to match and 1 to make only 1 flag (1 ball) available; in example: red vs blue but green team available to make only 1 (green) flag being the ball.

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 pm

I have some theories and ideas, but the overall idea has been commented on as a whole.
(Plus I doubt there is very much interest in precise implementations.)

Sure, not too difficult to give SR on spawn. flagOnSpawn
Also, I did provide an easy mod to remove message for possible enhanced effect. (Consoles may get cluttered.)

That can be done and sure we can have nicely thought of paths within the maps, either accomplished by map design or decent map generation.

There's many modes which can be made, so I am not worried if anyone does it before me, as already some of the concepts have been laid out.

For sports map, I am looking into a BZFS mod which will allow for spawning of team flags without slots and/or possibility eliminating the regular "team" flags. (Also, the issue of when having team flags being removed when a team leaves will be addressed.)
(Looking through some notes, there may be a way of doing this more easily via a plug-in, but it likely will be less than ideal, unless the API receives some updates.)

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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by blast » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm

Zehra wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 pm
(Plus I doubt there is very much interest in precise implementations.)
I would assume there's even less interest in a vague implementation.
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Re: CTF as a sole focus

Post by Zehra » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:44 pm

blast wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm
I would assume there's even less interest in a vague implementation.
Better previews will be done of upcoming new modes and concepts.
(Feedback within this thread has been provided and it will allow for improved content.)

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