Flag Ideas

All things BZFlag - no [OT] here please
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Valoche
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Post by Valoche » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:56 am

Oh no, that wasn't my point. I don't think a hot potato gametype would be worth the hard work. A flag is fine. I can add it myself, provided I find a replacement compiler for VC6 on Windoze.
My point is: what do *you* think of the Hot Potato flag, in terms of fun and gameplay.

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Post by SilverFox » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:00 am

So, it wouldn't be a game type, it'd just be another bad flag.

I like the game type more myself.

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Giant Bullets

Post by Gerbil » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:13 am

Grape of Wrath made a BZFlag variant with a bullet that had the range of Machine Gun but was the size of your tank. I think it made a bowling ball sound when it hit.

It was funny but didn't quite work right.
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Post by The Gecko » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:45 am

MaGnetic Bullet (MG).

This is not like GM. This bullet would function normally unless it came close to another tank or a building. If it came close to an object, it would turn towards that object. It wouldn't turn gradually, it would emmediatly head straight for that object. A max of a 90 degree turn. The bullet would have to come fairly close for it to be attracted. If a tank is jumping and near its highest point, and the magnetic bullet is fired at the normal bullet level, the magnetic bullet won't be attracted to the jumping tank (that's how close it has to come). A magnetic bullet is attracted to buildings, so it can be a hinderence. But it can kill burrowed tanks! 8)

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the enemy
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Post by the enemy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:41 pm

Landmines.

It's such an obvious thing if you think of real tanks. It would probably set off a shockwave.

There's all sorts of server config variables that could control it like how long they persist (possibly forever, possibly not, possibly till player drops the LM flag), how many simultaneously, whether it triggers automatically after a delay, or whether the player can trigger them by remote control (would need a new key for that).

There are lots of possibilities.

There could even be a balancing "mine clearance" flag, where a tank can run over the mines and defuse them, rather than set them off.

The only unusual restriction I think I'd have is that it shouldn't be possible to place one directly on a team base.

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Post by Smidge204 » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:50 pm

Most of these ideas are alreadt listed on the BZFlag homepage - as examples of what they don't want :/

Which is a shame, because I think landmines would be an excellent weapon, especially if they showed up on radar. Perhaps SR could set them off without getting damaged (ie; act as a mine sweeper)

Make them team neutral so they can kill anybody, but keep track of who put the mine down and still penilize for teamkilling if appropriate. That would bring a lot of balance and consideration to its use.
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the enemy
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Post by the enemy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:48 pm

Well, no-one seems to have officially suggested mines, and the comment at the top of the page assumes they aren't on screen or on radar, but they should be on one or other or both.

SR as a minesweeper sounds good.

How do you suggest flags for that list anyway?

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Post by JeffM » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:21 pm

I tired to implement mines once.

they have a couple problems.

The game is so slow paced that, if you make the mine visiable, then people just don't hit them, and they are not efective.

if you make the min invisible, then people just seem to blow up randomly, and think that you are cheating.

So it's not a real simple thing to do. If there was terrain, or something to hide them in, then yeah it may make more sense, but on a flat green plane, it makes it hard.

If the game was faster, then making them visiable may make them harder to avoid, and then become viable
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Mine thought

Post by The Purple Panzer » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:10 pm

I think the idea of mines is great, but I see the issue about visibility. One possibility: have them as small objects slightly up in the air, so that they show up only on radar when you're close. They could be fairly small, so that you'd really have to pay attention to the radar, which of course takes your concentration off of other things, like that approaching ST.

Another possibility is to mark them fairly clearly, but make them probabalistic. That is you see a strange discoloration on a region of the ground, and (say) 9 out of 10 times you can drive across it just fine; on the 10th, you blow up and are told that you've hit a mine. (The mines might have fixed positions that just aren't displayed (except as part of the collective cloud), so that if you do find a route through the minefield you can repeatedly traverse it. Or, the cloud could just have a probability associated with amount of area covered in the last time tick (arbitrarily defined); if you get in to the cloud and don't move, you'd be fine. If you move slowly, the integral of your probability of destruction across the region could be the same for all speeds - or, perhaps the probability of getting blown up is much lower if you're going more slowly.

In short, I think it's quite doable, perhaps with a little abstraction away from the discrete individual and visible mine.

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the enemy
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Post by the enemy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:39 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:I tired to implement mines once.

they have a couple problems.

The game is so slow paced that, if you make the mine visiable, then people just don't hit them, and they are not efective.
Wouldn't that just mean they were too small?
JeffM2501 wrote:if you make the min invisible, then people just seem to blow up randomly, and think that you are cheating.

So it's not a real simple thing to do. If there was terrain, or something to hide them in, then yeah it may make more sense, but on a flat green plane, it makes it hard.

If the game was faster, then making them visiable may make them harder to avoid, and then become viable
They could only be on radar rather than on screen too.

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Post by The Red Baron » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:25 am

JeffM2501 wrote:if you make the min invisible, then people just seem to blow up randomly, and think that you are cheating.

So it's not a real simple thing to do. If there was terrain, or something to hide them in, then yeah it may make more sense, but on a flat green plane, it makes it hard.

If the game was faster, then making them visiable may make them harder to avoid, and then become viable
They could only be on radar rather than on screen too.[/quote]

No, put them only on screen, radar is more powerful.
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Post by JeffM » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:53 am

When your in a game where some players are running with out textures, they still show up REALY well on the ground even if they are small. If they are too small and won't be seen, and they are efectivly invisible and fall into the case of the second problem

Bzflag tanks can stop on a dime. If you can see it, then you wont hit it. To compensate for that, you have to put a proximity on them, that means they still may not see it, and think that somone is cheating.

If you play subspace ( a game that uses mines ), you know they work, but that's because the game is a lot faster, and you can't stop as fast. If your chasing somone, they can pop a couple mines into you before you can even react. That's more of a twitch game thing. Bzflag is a twitch game.

It's hard to do weapons like this that have blast radii, becaus it's a one hit one death game here. If there was dammage, then you can get away with more, since you have a fuzzy death line. Shockwave works because it moves with the tank, and is faster then a tank can move away. But as many servers have shown, it becomes very unbalanced as it's setings are changed.
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Post by The Gecko » Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:38 am

Mines could be a secondary weapon, dropped by right clicking the mouse. The mines would be invible on the radar, and cloaked until you got fairly close to its location. The mine would detonate when you got too close, you don't have to drive directly over the mine to detonate it. Even if you jump over the mine, it will still detonate. To disarm the mine, simply shoot a bullet over it's location. It will detonate as the bullet passes over. This would make it so that mines would need to be carefully placed in oreder for anyone to get killed by it. Mines would kill teammates, so be careful where you put them! :wink:

Having mines as a secondary weapon might help you if you've jumped and an enemy is following and waiting for you to land.

Speaking of secondary weapons...If we made mines a secondary weapon, why not make some secondary weapon flags?
Like grenades?

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Landmines

Post by SilverFox » Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:36 am

Regarding Landmines:

These are some pretty interesting ideas (especially the secondary weapon thing) I'd like to suggest a simple implentation (mostly because its more likely to come to fruition even though it isn't as cool as some of the more elegant suggestions here)

So, if you picked up the LM (Landmine) flag, you wouldn't be able to jump (no big deal on no jump servers) because mine layers don't jump (I know, I know... tanks don't jump either), instead, the jump key (usually TAB) would lay a mine. I like the right click idea too though. Or, maybe you can't shoot while you have LM, shooting drops a landmine. I like that even better. Makes it tough to keep it very long.

When you drop a mine, it is invisible on screen. It is, however, visible on your radar and your teammates radars. If they must be visible on screen, make them look like a white flag.

SR would be able to deactivate/destroy mines.

If a tank (teammate or not) runs over a landmine, it detonates and anyone affected would count as a kill for the mine layer (or tk)

Good idea the enemy

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Ahem

Post by Gerbil » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:13 pm

For simplicity, you only need to mark the mine on radar as a "flag".

This means you can't "see" it --as in real life but you can detect it if you are careful -- as in real life.

Would blend in with burrows and flags on ground.

Another option is let the server designate objects as "shots"--kind of lik what jpa did in "Oceans" maybe?

So when building a world you could tag it "mine" and any tank landing on it or touching it would die.

This would give a great twist to maps--could make some REALLY cool stuff.
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Post by Smidge204 » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:19 pm

Making the LM flag a "secondary weapon" hurts the strategy of it. Either drop the mines until you run out or drop the flag! You're not allowed to save any other weapon for later...

Plus, I think, having more than one flag at a time is a big no-no as far as the developers are concerned. I kinda agree with this if only because it encourages tactics instead of finding good flag combinations.

The ability to drop mines while jumping also lends itself to some pretty bastard strategies! (Anyone who's played Worms - especially :wink:)

As for the mine itself, on more than a few occasions I've seem (and gotten killed by) bullets that aren't moving. Under special circumstances a bullet can be shot with 0 velocity (it's a known glitch). A mine would be pretty much the same only intentional.

Mines need to be visible on radar. You do not use mines to lay a trap, usually, but rather to build an obsticle or detterent. It's fairly easy to find landmines in real life with very basic equipment so generally they are not a "stealth" weapon. (Besides, if you have a full volumetric 3D radar that can see things like lasers inside buildings, then you can see mines...)

I think being able so see mines on both radar and screen will eliminate the "why did I just die?" scenario and hopefully encourage aggressive use of mines rather than passive (setting traps, hoping someone hits them) or defensive (putting them around your own base).

Making them look like flags would be stupid. Might as well make a "instant death" flag!

And in version 2 they already have "deadly" buildings. Play the olympic map (bzflag.norang.ca 5155), and often at least one obsticle on the racetrack uses the deadly buildings.
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Duh

Post by Gerbil » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:28 pm

Who you'se callin' stoopid, eh?

I didn't say the mines would look like flags in the window view--JUST on radar.

The clue that you are seeing a mine and not a flag would be when you see a flag on your radar but NONE in your window.

Like real life, this creates risk and uncertainty that slows down those advancing. Being hasty in a minefield is foolish.

I like the idea of, say, three mines (?) and you aren't able to get a new flag until they are detonated. They should have an expire time so you don't get stuck permanently with a bad flag due to bad placement.

Making them visible in window as well as radar, in my view, makes them lame. If I am playing and can see them easily they become as useful as phantom zone or burrrow (I know, I know--they are useful--but fact is they are limited flags that work well only in set-piece maps as a rule).

A great twist would also be that the laying tank is immune to his own mines--great way to bait opponents into them.
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Post by Memnarch » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:00 pm

I love how Gerbil lays it out. Making the mines only visible on radar as a flag, makes it so the people have to be very alert, and the flag wouldn't be spoiled by the slowness or flatness of BZFlag. So, basically, I agree with everything Gerbil said... except for the part about Burrow being useless.
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Post by The Gecko » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:35 pm

I think smidge204 has some good points, but the point of bzflag isn't to be realistic, it's to be fun! :lol-old:

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Post by SilverFox » Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:45 am

Oh, I almost forgot the whole reason I posted last night.

Anyone ever play Crash Bandicoot Racing? One of the "bad" things you can hit when racing is a TNT (or similar name) box that sits on top of your car. If you can't "shake" it by jumping a certain number of times w/in X minutes, boom!

Maybe we could do something similar. When a mine is activated, you have X seconds to make a kill, otherwise boom!

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Post by Memnarch » Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:56 am

OOOOOOOhhhhh....... so you have to JUMP to get the dang thing off?!?!? No wonder I always died! :x :x :x Oh, sorry, off topic. I like that idea, getting a kill in X seconds, I think it could go really well if combined with Gerbil's flag idea. You would have to combine, alertness, AND skill to avoid the mines. Ineteresting... You know, it made me come up with a nickname for the flag: newbie killer!
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What if

Post by Gerbil » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:47 pm

Ithink mines should blow up "burrow".
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Post by L4m3r » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:59 am

A bouncy mine/shot would be slightly amusing. one shot drops flag, the shot bounces like a runaway basketball until it hits something. infinite range... it would certainly cause some nasty surprises, especially in confined pit-like spaces or with a lot of teleporters.
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A cool idea

Post by Gerbil » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:22 am

What if mines could act as "bad flags" when hit as opposed to destroying you?

Could be entertaining.
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