Wings controversy

All things BZFlag - no [OT] here please

What is your take on the flag Wings?

:) Keep it in BZFlag
45
75%
:| Discourage its use (remove as default)
10
17%
:( Remove it from BZFlag
5
8%
 
Total votes: 60

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JeffM
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Post by JeffM »

there are posts that are removed yes, usualy the person having the post removed is notified of why. The only other one I know of today as one posting on a team name confict. The post was meant for the leauge forums, and the poster was notified. On yours I did think you wanted it removed, my bad for misunerstanding.

everyone should know my email address, it's at the bottom of everyone one of my posts :) Guess I don't have mail set up right on the mac tho :(

It seems like you've made up your mind tho, sorry if you feel you have to "give up" over it.
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Post by Le Troll Farceur »

May I suggest a point concerning WG ?

I would say that an alternative way for leveling this flag, and not giving it that much power, would be to inactivate the trigger while flying (i. e. : no shots in the air).

In that way, flying would only be an advantage for reaching faster high positions, or to escape from an untenable situation, i.e; defensive or neutral situations, rather than for an offensive usage.



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Post by Dervish »

Le Troll Farceur wrote:...inactivate the trigger while flying (i. e. : no shots in the air).
That sounds like a great idea. This would still leave the flag powerful, but challenge players to touch ground, fire, and then flee (not an easy thing to do). I'm all for that.

May be in addition, it would be nice to set this as a switch for bzfs. Default could be disable firing with WG, which can be enabled if a server owner so deems it necessary.

So far the current Wings (WG) setup is full turning, movement, and fire control when in the air. Default is one complete jump, but many server owners set the number of jumps (time in the air) higher than default. Some possible changes to WG people have discussed recently and in the past, along with my brainstorming...
  1. No forward or backward movement when in air with WG
  2. Slower turning speed when in air with WG
  3. Repeat jumps allowed only around the peak of an existing jump
  4. No shots allowed while in the air
Of course, these can be options added and controlled by bzfs. They can also be set enabled or disabled by default, either way, depending upon how the devs and community prefer it.
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Post by Lirael_Goldenhand »

My take on WG... it's a flag. Personally, the _setJumpCount should be limited to only one jump, because if you allow people to double-jump it's much like cheating. I also agree with L4m3r in that it should be a rare flag.. not only that, but in my use of the flag, I've found it impossible to escape from GMs without some serious maneuvering, and almost all of the time I'm caught, so it's not an all-powerful flag unless you have the ability to double-jump. *shrug* I say let it stay in the game.
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Post by Dervish »

Ahhh, I just realized how useful WG is to take screenshots of maps while driving a tank. LouMan recently used it to show his Camelot map. So multiple jump counts do have a REALLY valid use. ;)
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Post by The Red Baron »

eh? why not join as obs, roam and take all the shots you want without having to worry about things like gravity....

You can even drive through walls with obs!
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Post by RPG »

But the observer controls are all funky, and I never can get 'em to work right, nevertheless get my view to go where I want it to go.
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Post by RexFlex »

Lirael_Goldenhand wrote:My take on WG... it's a flag. Personally, the _setJumpCount should be limited to only one jump, because if you allow people to double-jump it's much like cheating.
With GM on unlimited shots you can sit on a perch and rain down hell all day and gather a huge score without having to be a good aim. Isn't that much like cheating? With geno on unlimited you could rack up huge scores with just the occasional hit. Perhaps that is much like cheating too.

Flag balance is important, but sometimes the balance is overlooked. In many games the GM has the main cause of imbalance. Sometimes it is the Wing. But wings don't often have to be cut back to just one jump to be balanced with the rest of the flags. It'll take more than two jumps to escape GM or SW for instance.
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Post by Lirael_Goldenhand »

True, if you wanted it to balance out with the rest of the flags. But in the case where a GM or an SW is limited to, say, 20 shots each, Wings should have a limit as well. I dunno, I like servers where the really powerful flags are limited. Makes you want to conserve your shots, use them more carefully ;)
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Post by Doppelgamer »

i think wings is a great addition to BZFlag, because otherwise it's hard to control where you're going to even land. I haven't had that much trouble with other players pwning me, usually it's possible to kill them and end their reign of terror (same goes for GM and L). I think that the flags in BZFlag are fun, but sometimes have too many limitations. I see the point behind having a separate CL and ST flag, though.
I think it's also nice when some servers have only WG or L or something. if everyone's super, then no one is.
so, in my opinion WG should be kept. it's a nice flag to have, and not all that bad to be on the recieving end of.
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Post by Darth Vader »

Well, with _wingsJumpCount on my server set to 5000, I guess I'm not helping any.

But then again, I balance that out with unlimited shots. Unlimited GM, laser, Superbullets, shockwave, Genocide... I even jacked up burrow so it's on crack. I prefer a higher powered game. Like that, yeah - someone might reign hell and be dominant for a minute or two. But not for too long! Someone will pick up a counter and get ya.

It all depends on the server, the server owner, and the game laid out as such.

So, pending the mode of play, while someone is flying off to the stratosphere, they're flag is that much more at risk in CTF without them there to help defend it... and in FFA - they're not gaining any points joyriding in the sky. Otherwise, they are using it with intent, and still close to the ground, so to speak... putting them within range of all sorts of other goodies.

Think outside of the box, peeps

On Rabbit Hunt wings is limited to 10 jumps. Made the mistake of running it once with my regular 5000, and the rabbit flew away everytime. Won't make that mistake again!
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Post by I_Died_Once »

Darth Vader wrote:Well, with _wingsJumpCount on my server set to 5000, I guess I'm not helping any.

But then again, I balance that out with unlimited shots. Unlimited GM, laser, Superbullets, shockwave, Genocide... I even jacked up burrow so it's on crack. I prefer a higher powered game. Like that, yeah - someone might reign hell and be dominant for a minute or two. But not for too long! Someone will pick up a counter and get ya.

It all depends on the server, the server owner, and the game laid out as such.

So, pending the mode of play, while someone is flying off to the stratosphere, they're flag is that much more at risk in CTF without them there to help defend it... and in FFA - they're not gaining any points joyriding in the sky. Otherwise, they are using it with intent, and still close to the ground, so to speak... putting them within range of all sorts of other goodies.

Think outside of the box, peeps

On Rabbit Hunt wings is limited to 10 jumps. Made the mistake of running it once with my regular 5000, and the rabbit flew away everytime. Won't make that mistake again!
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Post by Dervish »

Dopplegamer wrote:i think wings is a great addition to BZFlag, because otherwise it's hard to control where you're going to even land.
That's the whole point. Those who jump first are supposed to die first. :) You can easily control your jump by the direction you're turning and how fast you're going before you jump.

I usually shoot first, then attempt to dodge, and if absolutely necessary, jump. Being hunted by a player with WG, on a server with a high jump count, is a complete waste of time (it's not even fun). It's stalemate for WG against a non-flag tank if both players are good. It usually ends in some other tank showing up and fraggin' one of the two tanks. Now, WG on WG is much more interesting.

"I Died Once", btw, your character Vader looked pretty dorky in that fan film "Revelations" (http://www.panicstruckpro.com).
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Post by der_joachim »

Dervish wrote:
Dopplegamer wrote:i think wings is a great addition to BZFlag, because otherwise it's hard to control where you're going to even land.
That's the whole point. Those who jump first are supposed to die first. :)
I'll bite. ;) Dopplegamer has a good point: inexperienced players (or moderately experienced games like yours truly) greatly benefit from this flag. I like surprising my enemies from above. It's not merely maneuvrability (sp?), but an entire new tactic.

Even with no powerups, WG is a good flag to have. I agree and I love WG for that. However. abolishing this flag because on some servers it is too powerful is pretty absurd. Can we get rid of GM and L too, because some servers have unlimited shots? :?
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Post by Dervish »

Pont in case against WG...

I played a day or two ago on a server with 'hunt the rabbit' rules, on a map using a combination of a CTF design and underground tunnels. WG had a jump count of something around 8-10.

Needless to say, it was easy to grab WG, take out the rabbit, and then perch up high taking out each tank that comes close. This server also used vertical shot drift (ie: falling while shooting made the bullets shoot down at an angle), so WG became an easy god-like flag.

I dominated with it. It was pointless. Fun, yes, but ultimately pointless, unlike the old days of camping with GM.
RexFlex wrote:With GM on unlimited shots you can sit on a perch and rain down hell all day and gather a huge score without having to be a good aim. Isn't that much like cheating? With geno on unlimited you could rack up huge scores with just the occasional hit. Perhaps that is much like cheating too.
Nothing in BZFlag done with a regular client is cheating. Some things might be a bit more cheesy than others, but it's all acceptable. At least in 1.7x someone could grab ST and hunt me quite well when I GM camped. Now, very little can take out WG campers when the jump count is set super high. Only WG vs. WG stands a chance with high jump counts -- the better player will continue to dominate with WG and be almost untouchable by everyone without WG.

May be we should make a flag called Flak or something that shoots upward and creates flak the size of a SW? WG with high jump count is just totally unbalanced, and BZFlag is a game of balance.
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Post by L4m3r »

Dervish, with _shotsKeepVerticalVelocity set to 1, your opponents should have had more of a chance of nailing you... all it takes is one well-timed, well-positioned jump to surprise someone who's flying. :P Actually, with no extra flaps and bullet drift on, WG is very handy but still well-balanced.

and yes, it is a tactic for inexperienced players. I hate seeing people get up high scores (it the top 3, say) and noticing that they always have WG... and are hopeless players otherwise. There are specific players that I label as wings fiends that always use the flag to get the top score (or at least get close).

I don't consider myself especially good at the game, but I'd rather work on my skill than unfairly exploit the WG flag.
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Post by RexFlex »

Dervish wrote: Nothing in BZFlag done with a regular client is cheating. Some things might be a bit more cheesy than others, but it's all acceptable.
Yep, that was pretty much what I was alluding to. If the game has that imbalance, it may be cheesy to take advantage of it but it is also suicide not to because there are plenty of other people who would use the same advantage against you.
May be we should make a flag called Flak or something that shoots upward and creates flak the size of a SW? WG with high jump count is just totally unbalanced, and BZFlag is a game of balance.
Flak would be interesting. May need some thought about how it is controlled - e.g. fixed or variable vertical angular shots (variable may need an extra control).
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Post by Dervish »

Yeah, it would need some thought. I'd rather strip Wings of its more than 1 jump count, but if we leave it (works nicely on game formats), we should make a flag to help balance it. Just throwing out ideas, and flak came to mind since the tanks might as well be flying. :)
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