to CTF or not CTF that is the question...

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to CTF or not CTF that is the question...

Post by netochka nezvanova » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:28 pm

Playing on several ctf servers i noticed when the teams are uneven people start to say "don't ctf cause it's not fair".

I think they are partialy right in their opinion
it's indeed not sportive to ctf when you have 8 teammates and the other team has one.
but what about 8-7? or 8-6 ,8-5 where is the point of unfairness?
and 8 bad players with negative scores and 4 good players?

I would say it's ctf so we ctf. if you're is a minority you have to go in defend mode to protect the flag. While you wait for backup (more players to join your team) . and when there are more you can go trying to ctf the other flag(s).
But most of the time this game is not teamworking mostly it are all individuals playing their own little tankwars.

What if the server calculated a team strengthness?
For example a number between 1 and 100
based on number of players and their scores in a team.
if there is a too big difference between then team strengthness one team can't pickup the other flag.

Or what about this
when teams are uneven there could be a way to easy switch from one team to an other without signing off and on. So you keep your score also on the other team.

Now when i'm busy cappin the other flag i get messages 'don't ctf' then what? drop the bad flag in front of the homebase and start counting players ? 6-3 , 6-4 , 6-5 oh hell cap it! boom.
or get shot while you are counting... or maybe i shoud bring it back to the other team ? :roll:


well any thoughts about this?
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Post by Trucker Tricker » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:47 pm

My thought is that a CTF server is exactly that: Capture the Flag. That's the point of the game. If folks want free style, then they should go to a free style server. It's that simple. Others may consider joining the weaker team if the server allows that.

My guess is that kind of code to distribute tanks based on demonstrated skill would be very difficult (bear in mind that I can't code, so I don't know). Some servers evenly distribute players as they log in. That sounds simple enough and good enough for me. As for anything else, play the game on the server. If players don't want to play the game, they are free to go some place else.

Do we want a game that is moral, just, kind, and perfect? It seems to me that if we go down that path, then we lose sight of the point of a game: simply to have fun. These are tanks, and it's WAR :P Some days you have good battles, and some days you don't. Whatever the case, just have a good time with it. That's what it's all about. Creating code to encompass a sense of values for a moral majority, as it were, would be counterproductive to just plain having fun :)

Granted, we do have code and cops to weed out cheaters, spammers, trolls, and so on. The distinction is that these people take away from the fun of the game and drive people away. Most admins and server owners want their servers to be good places to play games regardless of age. Spammers and trolls take away from that, and they may promote sites that are malicious and/or indecent or make statements that are not appropriate for the little people that we have playing along with us.

But, to have subtle rules like "only CTF if the teams are evenly matched" and so on (and code to enforce it) doesn't make sense. Play the server's game (e.g., CTF, Rabbit Chase, etc.), or play another game. So, my thought is that if you are on an advantaged team, capture that flag and enjoy the utter victory! :P If you are on the losing team, then it stinks to be you. lol

Besides, it's only a game :)

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Post by A Meteorite » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:30 pm

Trucker Tricker wrote:My thought is that a CTF server is exactly that: Capture the Flag. That's the point of the game. If folks want free style, then they should go to a free style server. It's that simple.
Sometimes if maps are poorly designed it discourages CTF. I've been on maps that have even two bases and no one bothers to capture the flag!
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Post by Trucker Tricker » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:09 pm

Touché, Meteorite. I've seen that, too. I'm sure that server owners may like some feedback if a map isn't working. Some maps indeed do not lend themselves for a challenging CTF game.

On the other hand, there shouldn't be anything wrong with CTF on a CTF server.

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:52 pm

sometimes, its just not fair. i think it should be left up to the team with less ppl, wether to play or not. often the players on the team with less may leave and the difference gets smaller. just ask, take a vote, whatever...
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Post by Trucker Tricker » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:24 pm

People can always join the smaller team. If people take a vote or decide amongst themselves to do anything else, then that's fine. But, if folks want to play CTF on a CTF server, then there should be no reprimand for that.

Part of the challenge with that is this: if most people decide not to CTF, should a player who decides not to participate in the consensus be banned or kicked? If so, is it really right to kick or ban a player for wanting to play CTF on a CTF server?

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Post by netochka nezvanova » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:55 pm

banning or kicking is up to the admin ofcourse
but i would leave under protest and report it here on the forum

other question is what is fair in numbers?

9-7 is quiete a difference than 3-1
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Post by A Meteorite » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:09 am

It all depends. Some people can take a whole bunch. Like the blue team may all be on the top of the score list, but the reds may be on the bottom. But the reds have twice the amount of people on their team! Jusst depends that's all... :wink:
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Post by Soraya » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:57 am

this topic seems to be heavy on the support of unfair capping...

I personally have set a "fair" limit in my judgement of ctf, being i only play on ctf servers. i believe that any thing including and above 4:3 is fair, as long as theres only a 1 person dif. like 7:8. Once you get to 4:3, that extra person doesn't make much difference, but under that you get, 3:2, and that forces 1 person out of 2 to constantly be playing 2:1.

In a situation of 4:3. only 1 person out of 3 is forced to play 2:1. I don't believe the team w/ more players should cap w/ uneven teams. if its 6:4 for example, 1 player may switch teams and make it even, so theres no need to play unfairly.
Trucker Tricker wrote:Do we want a game that is moral, just, kind, and perfect? It seems to me that if we go down that path, then we lose sight of the point of a game: simply to have fun.
the thing is tho, the team who's getting slaughtered is most likely not having fun. i think my opinion of what is "fair" is a good guideline, because of the forementioned fact that at 4:3 that extra person doesn't make much difference anymore. So do what you like, but this is what i believe and how i play.
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Post by Hannibal » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:12 am

really, each situation is different...9-7 is different than 3-1. more ppl, more the difference should be. on 2 castles, there should be no dont cap thing.
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Post by Glassjaw » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:14 pm

like Phalanx said, each situation is different, you can't apply strict rules to the whole ctf thing.

so i think the players have to judge for themselves whether it's a fair game or not.
if it isn't a fair game, just switch teams (although most players don't want to switch, only because they have a nice score ...)

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Post by Soraya » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:32 pm

cmon glass!! you're supposed to take my side on this!!! :evil:
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Post by Green Manalishi » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:08 pm

i agree with soraya. 4:3 seems to be a decent ratio for any ctf game. i wouldn't pay attention to the individual scores, or which team appears to be stronger. if teams are uneven numerically (according to the 4:3 ratio) you just shouldn't ctf. if you still do, does an admin have the right to kick (let alone ban) you? i don't think so. a warning before the ctf indicating that the teams are uneven (ex: 8-5 no ctf pls) is what an admin should do before the ctf. actually any player from either side can do this. and if the player still caps the flag an ironic remark (and not an insulting one) would suffice. if you are quick enough you could as well /kill that player before the cap and that wouldn't be to harsh or unfair too. as to having fun, the destroyed team with some of it's members possibly losing some power flags won't be having any fun and that may cause a general unrest spoiling the friendly atmosphere.

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Post by Glassjaw » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:49 am

Soraya wrote:cmon glass!! you're supposed to take my side on this!!! :evil:
that post of yours looked so long i didn't even bother reading it :slick:

i've seen games that were uneven numerically but the team that had the least players actually slaughtered the other team, that's why i say: judge for yourself

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Post by netochka nezvanova » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:56 am

when i'm on a run to homebase with their flag i often don't have time to count number of players.

I had the similar thing on two castles last week, my team was 8 they where 5. when i was inside the our canal area got messages not to cap because of 8-5, I started counting and got to 8-6 (someone joined in) and i thought it's ok. so continuing. still got messages not to cap. while i was waiting on our bridge busy counting players they warned me to kick me for unfair capping.
At that time the teams where even 6-6...

I didn't cap at the end. i got shot cause i paid more attention to the score list instead of my radar.....

that's the reason why i made this topic

it would be better if there is a line under score list which prints the number of players on a team " red green 9-6 "

Even better would be some calculation about team strengthness
-number of players
-average time each player is on game
-average number each player got shot
-average number each player kills someone

so red team has 3 players avg time is 5minutes death is 3 per player and killing is 6 per player
blue team has 6 players who are playing for 25 minutes each got shot 12 times and has average kill of 2 . ( no they are not bots)

then some math function...
and the reds would be stronger in less time they kill more per player
which means in a relative short period they can take back their stolen flag and defend it. so it's ok to ctf their flag, even when teams are 6-3.

the server could calculate a strength difference number and if this number is above a certain range the flag of the weak team can't be taken or a message will popup under the score list "don't cap" or similar.


so?
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Post by Hannibal » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:53 pm

ive heard of that somewhere, maybe another thread...dunno...o well, that is a good idea, but i dunno if it will really happen.
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Post by Soraya » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:04 pm

glassjaw wrote:
Soraya wrote:cmon glass!! you're supposed to take my side on this!!! :evil:
that post of yours looked so long i didn't even bother reading it :slick:

i've seen games that were uneven numerically but the team that had the least players actually slaughtered the other team, that's why i say: judge for yourself
you're so lazy.
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Post by spldart » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:00 pm

I've had that happen too. Brought the flag most of the way across the map and 1 or 2 of my own guys said don't cap it's not fair. If I get no counter from other teamates I have just hung back about a quarter the way to my base and just gone defensive until the other team had more players or one of them got lucky and nabbed our flag anyway. Then I would go ahead and cap.
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:27 pm

i think its a matter of ratios ...
75% or less is to mee on the verge of bullying ;P

personally , if it is 3v4 or less i wont capture , unless the smaller team says its ok (or if the smaller team is made up of really good players while the larger team is mostly no0bs).

4v5 or more ... o well all's fair in luv an war ;)

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Post by nemesis » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:15 pm

i only play on real popular servers like pimpi, so this might be moot, but if teh teams get unfair, usually people just ask others to switch teams. that tends to work fine.

i say leave it to the smaller team to ask. and make it screamingly clear that they are encouraged to ask for support. that way if thy want the challenge, they can go for it.

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Post by Soraya » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:37 pm

badboi wrote:i only play on real popular servers like pimpi, so this might be moot, but if teh teams get unfair, usually people just ask others to switch teams. that tends to work fine.
yes, that's true, and that's what usually happens, but when its a 1 person difference, that's where the arguments come in. Some ppl think a 1 person difference no matter what is unfair, other have an idea of the # of players a 1 person dif actually makes a dif, and so on and so forth.
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:06 pm

1 person can make a difference


O;)


esp. if he/she is a really good player . however , just as in the real world , not everything in the bz world is perfect either . and peeple should accept this . so getting as close to perfect as we can would still be good enough to play ...

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Post by nemesis » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:50 pm

amen.
i just look at it as a challenge. how else are you going to learn other than playing people who are better than you?

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Post by a monkey » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:27 pm

Dunno about you guys, but I love it when my team is the minority, and I have a challenge. :twisted: If the other team is the minority, however, if nobody else does, I usually ask them what they want: wait 'til more players come, or start CTF'ing.
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Post by Trucker Tricker » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:03 am

Well, leaving it up to folks to decide is fair enough; however, I don't think people should change the rules of the server. By that, I mean that if a person wants to ctf even though others have agreed otherwise, then voting that player out doesn't seem cool if the server is a ctf server to begin with. In my opinion, if everyone wants to play in any particular way, that's fine. Voting to kick or ban should be for trolls, cheaters, and such, and not for getting rid of people who want to ctf on a ctf server.

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