team play is not honored :-(

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team play is not honored :-(

Post by Tux » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:19 am

Hi folks,

Why don't I get points for team play? This is a severe restriction of CTF.

I was just on silvercat. Most players were sitting on their Wings or GM or Laser flags, and just a few cared for the team flags. Why should they, they don't win or loose points if anybody catches a foreign flag.

1st suggestion:
Make CTF work a little bit more like Geno. If somebody catches another team's flag, then he gets a point for every tank that explodes.

2nd suggestion:
Assuming there are 2 teams Red and Blue, with #red and #blue players. If Red catches Blues flag, then every team member in Red wins (3 - (#red - #blue)) points. The blue team members loose (3 - (#red - #blue)). There is <b>no</b> "if (#red - #blue > 0)", i.e. if teams are not even, then you can loose points by catching a foreign flag.


Regards

Tux

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Post by birdie » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:16 am

i agree with you that something has to be done to make ctf more attractive

its the same if you do it or not for the moment, people who play to be on the top of the list wont carry much flags, cause they have to take to much riscs. But for example (i dont know wich are the good ideas for it) if you get the number of points of people playing in the other team on that moment when you capture a flag...there would be much more "flag minded" people

for the moment 25% plays ctf propably on a ctf server (ducati style not counting in this, cause there mostly people play it)

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Post by Kooppers » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:44 pm

hi,
the idea of changing things is great for CTF map, to award players really playing CTF .

However i guess this is not as easy.
I don't have any hints on how to set up things , but let's take an exemple:
1 player carry the flag all alone and gets killed just in time before the grab.
Then another player CTF for the last inches that remained to run.

-> only the guy that grab has extra points? hmm i don't think it would be fair.

Maybe there can be setup in the code some kind of team flag holding timer that is reset when CTF is done, then extra points affored depending on some arithmetic op, depending of opponents team number , timer, and others.

only my 2 cents point of view :)

Regards, yums

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Post by Spazzy McGee » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:50 pm

Yeah, prehaps everyone that has held the flag scince the last capture gets some points. the longer you hold, the more points you get. maybe it should be a server option, so if people don't want to have extra points on capture, like have a -ctfpoints option in the config
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Post by RPG » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:26 pm

Maybe everyone on the whole damn team should get a point for capturing the flag.

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Post by birdie » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:51 pm

RPG wrote:Maybe everyone on the whole damn team should get a point for capturing the flag.
nah thats not a good idea

some would get one point for sooooooo much work and some would get a point while not even looking at the flag

i agree for the idea with a timer, but i should change that a bit though:

a timer + the distance made, and make some kind of average to count the points, cause if one just grabs the flag and camps with it for more points....

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Post by Soraya » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:04 pm

birdie wrote:people who play to be on the top of the list wont carry much flags, cause they have to take to much riscs.
i agree with that mostly, but there r some exceptions... like me. :) i play to be the top of the list, but i love carrying the flag. when i carry the flag, i dont play to be top, i switch from a "score minded" player to a "flag minded" player.

i usually play on pillbox servers, so there's not the problem of the other flags, but i do play on silvercat, and i do think something needs to be done to make the team flags more appealing.
birdie wrote:a timer + the distance made, and make some kind of average to count the points, cause if one just grabs the flag and camps with it for more points....
that's a really good idea. i have no idea how to go about making that, but i'm sure someone could figure it out if they want to. :)
Spazzy Mcgee wrote:maybe it should be a server option, so if people don't want to have extra points on capture, like have a -ctfpoints option in the config
that's also a good idea. some ppl may not like losing/gaining points on a cap, so the server can switch it on/off.
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Post by Hannibal » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:57 pm

that leads to the person with the flag just drving around, and it could also lead to tks by people who want the points for capping it.
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Post by The Red Baron » Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:12 pm

Tux

I feel your pain. And the idea of rewarding CTF teamplay has been tossed around so much, so many times, and has been a question for many years. It is not a new problem.

Sadly, a solution has yet to be discovered. I think there has been. It is called "Leagues" There are a couple of leagues dedicated to CTF and its different styles. Jumping, no jumping, rico, no rico, 2 shots, 3 shots. etc etc. The object of these leagues is Teamplay, there are no super flags. only team flags. 1 team battles another team and you win points based on the teams ranking. each League has its own ranking ladder. There is where I get satisfactory teamplay.

Here are the 3 league sites.

http://adrenaline.willempen.org/index.php?link=home - based on the popular silvercat/hepcat pillbox map and setup. 3 shots, no jumping, no rico.

http://my.bzflag.org/league/index.php?link=home - based on the ducati style, random map, 2 shots, rico and no jumping

http://www.gu.bzleague.com - based on the HIX map, also known as X-mission, and other names. It is hosted at bzflag0.gamesunited.de:5154. It is 3 shots, jumping, and rico.

I think you will enjoy those leagues... enjoy them!
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Post by birdie » Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:28 pm

Soraya wrote:
birdie wrote:people who play to be on the top of the list wont carry much flags, cause they have to take to much riscs.
i agree with that mostly, but there r some exceptions... like me. :) i play to be the top of the list, but i love carrying the flag. when i carry the flag, i dont play to be top, i switch from a "score minded" player to a "flag minded" player.

i usually play on pillbox servers, so there's not the problem of the other flags, but i do play on silvercat, and i do think something needs to be done to make the team flags more appealing.
i said "people who play to be on top mostly dont care about team flags", i havent said that all people who are on top dont care about flags :), only the ones that play mostly for score.

Cause its a desision you make, or you play for score, or you play for the team. There can come some things close to that..but for example if you play for a good score, how many would do a "last chance" for the flag knowing they will die for sure (with a bullet)

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Post by Soraya » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:03 pm

probably not many. but i would. ;)
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:09 pm

back when i was lobbying for HTF to be intergrated into bz , i had an idea that the scoreboard could add a seperate stat or score for the number of captures a player made .

there's the overall score , kill ratio , tk # , an player #

why not a capture #?

i know CTF is suppose to be a team effort . but some credit should be given to the person who is actually playing CTF an carries the flag in . even if he/she didn't carry it all the way on their own . just like in baseball (RBI's...i think).

if you just award kill points to whoever captures the flag , then you will probably see quite a few greed induced tk's . whereas , since only 1 point is given , peeple will be less likely to tk over 1 capture point .

yes/no/maybe?

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Post by eagle » Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:54 pm

i feel that way also, whenever i capture the flag all you get is...nothing,there should be at least somthing for the player that captures, this might be to big of a prize maybe but if you capture your points would go to 0 if you are in the negitives and if you are positive,well im not sure 8) :?
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:36 pm

:idea: or maybe 1 kill point added to your score when you capture a flag (regardless of how many players are on the enemy team) :?:


1 pt. is not likely enough to get tk'ed over ...an it's better than nothing ;)

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Post by Longhair » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:57 am

One problem with awarding points for captures is that it may encourage team killing among the dishonorable players. Blow up your team mate, and collect the point.

I don't see this being a major problem, but it could be one more things for the admins to have to police.

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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:30 am

any1 who intentionally tk's over the trivial 1 pt. given for a capture , will most likely tk for any other small reason (i.e. fighting over a good superflag) .

so the problem would be with the 'bad' player . besides , to tk some1(minus a point) just to capture the flag(gain a point) doesn't make sense scorewise , other than to be an Image

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Post by optic delusion » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:05 am

Flag capture is a good deal more exciting when you are actually keeping score.
If you want to encourage greater CTF teamplay, I suggest your server load the RaceToSeven plugin. Developed by RPG and myself, It starts, keeps score, and stops CTF matches. It is configurable. It can open or close the server to new player joins. It has built-in match help. It is 2, 3 or 4 team ready. It is windows, mac, and linux compatible. It is even league ready, as it reports match results via http.
You can see the plugin in action at my server. a-delusion.no-ip.org;5160
I have been running it on my mac for a week without any problems.
Take a look at my Defender game mode concept.

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Post by [dmp] » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:44 am

You guys are wierd :-)

I understand the problem with people getting to concerned about their own player score compared to the teamscore.

But how is increasing the (some) player score for a team effort going to help? The problem is basically, that its not easy to determine if a player is helping the carrier (eg giving cover, taking a bullet etc). They should be, imho. A good cover is at least as important as the carrier. So singleing out the ones who actually touched the flags, does not improve teamplay.

My solution would probably never get implemented, but i think the proper thing to do, is to keep the focus on team score. And only teamscore. Keep the "i killed/i got killed by XYZ"-scores, but only locally. Remove player scores (or perhaps only show it at end of game). Use timed games more on ctf server, to avoid teams scores differs too much, and giving them a goal ("We won!", "We lost") to work toward.

One could consider showing playerscores at the end too, if people really wanted that.

But i dont think this will ever happen. People wants to see who is "the best" (which only makes sense i ffa/rabbit style, but changing peoples habbits is hard - not in a game were teameffort counts).
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Post by Soraya » Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:03 pm

personally, i dont like you're suggestion. i agree with what you're getting at, but... its prolly cuz i'm a pretty "score minded" player, and i like to see my scores, i like to think i'm becoming a better player, but i dont play soley for my score. i will take bullets, i will carry the flag, and i will dodge like crazy to get the flag.

i think that instead of making your score show up at the top left hand corner, the team score could. that would put more emphasis on your team score, not your score. as it is, you can switch off the scores, and the team scores go with it, but ur score stays. if the team score is in the corner, it would stay and the rest would be hidden. i dunno, just a suggestion.
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:40 pm

meacan wrote:Remove player scores
weirdo ;)



hmm i like Soraya's idea tho ;)

yea maybe switch the scoreboard around for CTF so it will put more emphasis on the team score .

i still like awarding a point for capture . it's called incentive.
it's not alot to get greedy over , an it's at least something .

.. gives us true CTF players alil sumtin' sumtin' ;) ..while the rest of the "team" is off playing FFA and concerned with their own score .

peeple will play the way they play . peeple will still be interested in their own personal score , no matter what gamestyle it is . they see it as a gauge or measurement of skill . so i would not get rid of it or try to hide it , because alot of true CTF players still like to keep tabs on their score(performance , within the team) even though they are more focused on the team flags and teamplay.
i would find another way to entice people to play CTF in a CTF game .

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Post by Brick Majors » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:58 pm

How about this for a (slightly over complicated) team play score system:

have seperate score boards that record team based events ie. things that help your team by either helping capture the flag, or defending your own flag. So for each player record:

attacking events
-getting killed while holding opposition team flag (attempting to cap)
-killing the opposition player carrying their own flag
-capping opposition team flag

defending events
-getting killed while holding own team flag (attempting to return it)
-killing the opposition player carrying your team flag
-"passing" your flag back to your base

you could also track events that disadvantage your team:
blunders
-tk on any team flag carrier
-capping own team flag (obviously)

i'd also like to see a record of the number of kills on opposition players who are holding superflags (GM, SW, L, WG).

You could then combine these into a some sort of "team worth" index, like for example:

team worth = ( attacking + defending + superflag kills - blunders ) / total kllls

Of course this doesnt account for all team play, but these are the only events that are easy to measure (that i can think of).

Obviously I've thought about this a little too much...

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Post by [dmp] » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:15 am

Soraya wrote:personally, i dont like you're suggestion. i agree with what you're getting at, but... its prolly cuz i'm a pretty "score minded" player, and i like to see my scores, i like to think i'm becoming a better player, but i dont play soley for my score. i will take bullets, i will carry the flag, and i will dodge like crazy to get the flag.
How do you determine if you are good player in CTF? That you kill alot of other tanks? Thats only a part of teamplay - and dosnt tell if you good at CTF or if you're good at killing/camping/playing alone. But I know people likes to see how they perform. Thats why you still keep the "i killed / got shot by XYZ", so you can compare killratio with other players. But you still dont see their total score. They are simply not important in a team game. If people want to measure their personal skill in killing other tanks, we got a game mode for that.
RC Pepsi wrote: i still like awarding a point for capture . it's called incentive. it's not alot to get greedy over , an it's at least something. it's not alot to get greedy over , an it's at least something .
Giving single player points for a team effort is wrong. Measuring the distance travelled is no good either, as nobody stops me for making circles before i go the goal. And if the teamplay is good, they others can hold off enemies giving me time to boost the capture-bonus.

If the points you gain is to low, it wont make much of a difference compared to now. Good players can stil earn more points FFA'ing away. Giving more points for capturing will help on this (and perhaps tk's). But then the argument that Soraya wanted to keep personal scores, to see if you get better is busted. Suddenly, a score is the sum of the captures and the normal score. So a topscore might be the only who gets good cover or a player that kills alot. A mess if you ask me :) And a new concept to bzlfag, as score (no matter which game mode you see) is the same.

A middleground is to make BZFlag show the number of flags each player have captured. A ekstra number or perhaps small flag icons in the scoretable. This could underline the importance of flag captures. (perhaps default sort of scores could then be, number of captures and then score.).

As I see it, the problem is simple: People play FFA style of games in CTF, which can ruin the CTF game in some degree. And I think the solution is pretty simple too, (except for all the bad habbits we need to change :) ): Remove the FFA part in CTF, which could be implemented by removing the player scores.
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Post by birdie » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:55 am

i vote totally against removing player scores (oh oh grumbler will wake up now)

its always nice to know how players are doing, seeing who are the better killers etc

second: dont give a team points for captures but only the people who made sure there was a capture (of course its very hard to find that out -> some people mostly cover). Some people never help for captures and shouldnt get any points than of course.

but i like the idea wich i said before about running with a flag, the time and distance, and some kind of average for some points in the scorelist. It will make ctf much more attractive for most players imho

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Post by [dmp] » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:13 pm

I think i've stated my suggestion, even tho people dosnt like it. After talking with birdie i think i know why. Its bascially, what do you expect from CTF.

As I see it, we got a two ways of playing games. A Team Matters Only (TMA) and a I matter only (IMO). Both are extrems, and I see RabbitStyle as "pure" IMO (only one player can benefit of a kill) and CTF (without rogues) as a pure TMA. And FFA floating in the middle. As i'm tring to show below :)

Code: Select all

Team Matters only =(CTF)============(FFA)===========(Rabbit) Player Matters Only
Now, if you consider CTF as somewhere in the middle, together with FFA, removing playscores makes no sense. But you, like me, see CTF as a teamsport where only the teams matter, it do make sense.

I'll shut up now :)
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Post by Death Barrel » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:28 pm

you never see this during an official match (people only caring about kills & not the flag). i still say we need one centralized league, but instead everyone wants to create more leagues that don't come together <<< probablly has nothing to do with the above :)

what would be really cool is more player stats sorta like dmps old ladder if some of you remember. (my.bzflag.org doesn't really tell you much when it comes to player stats) i wouold like to see stats like>> CTF's for individuals how many lifetime CTF's you have, kill stats, overall hit accuracy (a hit accuracy is already in the client when you press "Home") << i would like to see a hit accuracy that measures you overall, how you stack up against other players.....stuff like this.

as long as you have people playing the way it is now, and unless its a match.... there is always going to be a lot of people out there that don't care about the flag. presonally, i don't care, but it might give a better incentive for making the CTF league we have even better.


oh and meacan: not seeing your score until the end of the match........ thats would be supprising... kinda cool, i could live with that, just don't take the score away totally :)

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