team play is not honored :-(

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Im not good at keeping promises... but

Post by [dmp] » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:42 pm

Death Barrel wrote:what would be really cool is more player stats sorta like dmps old ladder if some of you remember.
I do! After we got plugins, I've begun experimenting how to implement a ladder using them. I just got so many options, its hard to determine what to keep. (..but that is offtopic here)
I don't need huge pictures here.

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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:38 pm

[dmpee] wrote:
RC cola wrote: i still like awarding a point for capture . it's called incentive. it's not alot to get greedy over , an it's at least something.
Giving single player points for a team effort is wrong. Measuring the distance travelled is no good either, as nobody stops me for making circles before i go the goal. And if the teamplay is good, they others can hold off enemies giving me time to boost the capture-bonus.
uhh , i said one point , not point(s) . capturing a flag is not easy [for 1 player] nor does it happen often [for one player].
and if you captured the flag for your team 20 times , then yes i think you deserve 20 points added to your score .

but i agree with you that measuring distance (or time) that you carried the flag is not a good indicator stat for CTF . an i also agree that a middle ground can be reached , such as a seperate scoreboard # for captures made by a player (which was my 1st and most prefered option i suggested earlier).

there must be a distinction made here , between match server CTF and public server CTF .
on a public server CTF , where there is a mix of all kinds of players , you will encounter IMO , TMO , and IM+TM types .
whereas on a match CTF game , you will most often see the TMO league players .
the original poster of this thread was referring to a public CTF server .
where the atomosphere can be very different from a match server . IMO type players are just a fact of life because those types of peeple will always be there .

BTW on servers where automatic death for TKing is enabled , such as on Silvercat , killing teamates over the flag would be rare . if giving a personal point for capture , peeple will not be tking over that 1 point because they could not take advantage of it either since they would be dead too . and even if the auto-TKer-death feature was not enabled , the TKer would not be benefiting scorewise because they would be losing a point (for TKing) just to gain a point(for capturing). it wouldn't make sense .


anyways , i still prefer the adding of a seperate #of captures-made column for individual players , along with the scoreboard left-to-right switch idea . those ideas combined would help place more emphasis on CTF playing , without radically changing or overcomplicating the look of the game as we know it .

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Re: team play is not honored :-(

Post by Tux » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:57 pm

I think one important aspect is that the team members of the caught flag loose points. If they don't do team play, then they will loose ponts again. I am pretty sure that team play will improve with such a change.

So what is a good team player? From the SW developer's point of view we need something that is easy to verify here. Dropping the foreign flag on your own base is surely easy to detect. Shooting an enemy carrying your own flag is easy to detect, too. Shooting a team member carrying a foreign flag is surely not team play, so the tk has to loose more than just 2 points.

Some more ideas?


Regards

Tux

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Post by Soraya » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:17 pm

meacan wrote:
Soraya wrote:personally, i dont like you're suggestion. i agree with what you're getting at, but... its prolly cuz i'm a pretty "score minded" player, and i like to see my scores, i like to think i'm becoming a better player, but i dont play soley for my score. i will take bullets, i will carry the flag, and i will dodge like crazy to get the flag.

How do you determine if you are good player in CTF? That you kill alot of other tanks?
well see, for me, i dont like playing on ctf with flags, cuz it is all about who's got the better flag. so the way i determine whether or not i'm getting better is i go onto pillbox (where i normally play) and play. and i'll play until i have to leave or until i'm bored. as of now my kill/death ratio is about 2/1. but i've seen it getting better (more kills less dying) that's how i know im getting better.

it works because there's no super flags to warp the image. cuz if i get geno or gm or laser, my score goes up a lot.
meacan wrote: As I see it, we got a two ways of playing games. A Team Matters Only (TMA) and a I matter only (IMO).
i've already proved that wrong. there is definately a middle ground in there. i'm it. i'm sure there are others all around me who live in this middle ground too. but there are definately not only two ways to play.
Barrel wrote:not seeing your score until the end of the match........ thats would be supprising... kinda cool, i could live with that, just don't take the score away totally :)
yes i agree. that would be interesting... i think it would be really.... enlightening (?). dunno if that's the right word. you wouldn't be able to see how you're doing until the end, so you can't go on a spree to boost your score....
I am a leaf on the wind.

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Re: Im not good at keeping promises... but

Post by Death Barrel » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:22 am

meacan wrote:
Death Barrel wrote:what would be really cool is more player stats sorta like dmps old ladder if some of you remember.
I do! After we got plugins, I've begun experimenting how to implement a ladder using them. I just got so many options, its hard to determine what to keep. (..but that is offtopic here)
sorry i know its a bit off topic..............

all the stats you can gather would be sweet! the more the better, i love detail.... what i am saying is don't determine what to keep, just keep it all :) i will hit you up about it on IM... good that you are think about it though :)

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Post by KRR » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:29 am

This discussion again? ;)

I think Brick Majors had some interesting ideas. Also, dmp/DB's "no scores til the end of the match" would be neat.

Being a flag addict, I've always wondered just how many points I would get because of my addiction. :) It would be a lot. Lifetime, I bet I would rank really high, because for me the flag is the fun. :)

In CTF - league play or just on a duc-style server - I think people should play with a flagging mindset - after all, that's the point, isn't it?

Ahem <rant on>But I know I do see some players who seem to actively *ignore* the flag in favor of their score, and that to me gets infuriating. Especially when they *don't* cover the flag carrier (me or whoever), and run off to try and get their score higher. Those folks should just play on a 2-shot rico server with no flags, a ducati-style FFA I guess.</rant off>

Perhaps using some sort of flag score on CTF servers, and not a kill score, would keep that type of play away, keep it back on the FFA servers where it belongs.

Then again, the "I only care about my score" shooters seem to be a fairly recent phenomena. When I first started, there were always players who always had the high scores, but it was because they kicked ass, while still playing effectively as a CTF team member. That, to me, is the epitomy of skill and earns my greatest respect.

I'm glad I got to learn from and play with people like that - it was a good example, and is what is responsible for the passion I have for the game even today.

Of course that was back in the good old days, when we had to walk uphill in the snow to get to the BZFlag server list, and all that...... :D
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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:45 am

KRR wrote:This discussion again? ;)

topics like this only come back to haunt peeps . again and again ...

;P
"no scores til the end of the match"
bad idea . what if it's not a match server? what if you have to quit before the end comes? what if it's a server with a continuous map?

it's nice to know how you are preforming at any given time when you are playing .. to know that if you were down , or making a comeback .. to know that you were , at point in the game , the best ..or worse ..on your team ... your "peaks" ..and your "valleys" , ect.
seeing your score only at the very end , leaves you guessing .. almost as if you were left blinded ..

being conscious of your own score doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be focused on CTF teamplay .

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Post by Death Barrel » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:07 pm

i was just refering to match servers about showing score at the end. p00psmif!

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Post by cong066 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:01 pm

I would have to agree with showing the score at the end of the mactch. I think that the score, except for the team score, should be removed, and then at the end, like when you log out of the game, the full stats:
hit accuracy
people killed
flags captured

and then all the things that Brick majors said:
attacking events
-getting killed while holding opposition team flag (attempting to cap)
-killing the opposition player carrying their own flag
-capping opposition team flag

defending events
-getting killed while holding own team flag (attempting to return it)
-killing the opposition player carrying your team flag
-"passing" your flag back to your base

you could also track events that disadvantage your team:
blunders
-tk on any team flag carrier
-capping own team flag (obviously)
RC cola wrote:it's nice to know how you are preforming at any given time when you are playing .. to know that if you were down , or making a comeback .. to know that you were , at point in the game , the best ..or worse ..on your team ... your "peaks" ..and your "valleys" , ect.
seeing your score only at the very end , leaves you guessing .. almost as if you were left blinded ..
what if they had a timeline at the end after you left the server with all the other stats. I guess i'm thinking of the kind of thing that Age of Empires has after you leave the game, or the game is over. the only difference would be that you could rejoin after you leave.

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Post by Rebel Chik0rita » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:48 pm

i'm not a coder ...but that looks like alot of work .

the main goal is to get IMO-types to play more like TMO-types on a public non-match CTF server .

an i think this can be accomplished , by not resorting to radical or overcomplicated changes in the game , without trying the simple or easier methods first .

DB: isn't that right ? p0opsmif! ;D

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Post by Death Barrel » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:36 am

fo show doinkey!

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Post by Glassjaw » Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:03 pm

and what if the server used the plugin A-Delusion mentioned; the first team that gets 7 caps wins (would make things more competitive)

BUT after a team has won, ALL the scores are reset so the good players have enough time to show off their skills and their scores before a team reaches the 7th cap (7 caps can take a while ;))

I dont really like the idea of adding or taking points away for a cap since there always be players that don't really deserve it.

OFFTOPic: im with death barrel about the stats thing: I LOVE STATS! that would be great! 8)

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Post by optic delusion » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:51 pm

The plugin is fully configurable, you can make it any number of captures for a win.
Have it report results to whatever URL you wish.
Have it open or close the server to new player joins, at any time.
I have even tested it on a three team map.
It does not reset player scores at this time, only tteam scores. I remember a comment of Jeff's "The client is just too stupid"
RPG is working on a version that tracks players who cap a flag, but I see no real use for the data. There are simply too many random elements that may happen during a flag-carry. Next players will say "But I didn't get anything for defending the flag all that time..."
Maybe a new stat, "team flag pickups" would be useful, but still basicly just trivia. The thing is, in a good team, one player is usually designated as a defender, and one as an offensive player, which one is better?
You tell me.
Take a look at my Defender game mode concept.

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