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Smiling Bob
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Language

Post by Smiling Bob » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:37 am

When did the religious right take over bzflag? Someone complained on BoxyWar that I was swearing when I sad, "BLANKING RED CAMPER FEMALE DOGS". The admin, AxisArmour, said it was rude and vulgar. Have we lost freedom of speech in this game? We are prohibited from saying something that might offend a child who uses worse everyday with his friends. This is ridiculous.

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Post by JeffM » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:59 am

techincaly you never had that freedom.

server ops can run there servers how every they see fit. They could ban you for being named bob if they wanted. It's there server, there hardware, there bandwith. You don't have to play there.

the project on a whole can not set standards or morals for others. If somone wants to have ultra General chat levels safe for 2 year olds, then they can do that.

I can see there point, you were basicly insulting another player, using carefully contsructed sentances to get around the word ( but not intent ) of there filters.

maybe you know just you know try to be nice to other players.

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Post by Tanner » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:01 am

Your playing on the owner's server. It is theres. Since it is there they have any say (mostly) they wish in rules. Freedom of speech does not stretch across all corners of the internet.

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Post by Tropican8 » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:23 am

It is the internet. Bob you have the right to say what you feel -- and others have the right to not listen to it or permit it. The proprietor gets to decide as he is the one paying for everything.

Its like those restaurants that are black tie. You are allowed in, as long as you have a suit. You are not being singled out, your rights are not being taken away. You are free to get the same steak at Applebee's or Outbacks. If you really like that one restaurant though, you’ll come in a tux.

So either go to Outbacks, put on a tux, or start your own restaurant. You are free to do all three, the beauty of the client/server model.

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Post by L4m3r » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:21 am

Also note that server owners reserve the right to ban you for being an asshat. Almost any server, even those that have no language rules, will exercise this right.

As Jeff mentioned, there is something to be said about the difference between diction and meaning. You can make an ass of yourself either way.
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Post by Smiling Bob » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:36 am

Tanner wrote:Your playing on the owner's server. It is theres. Since it is there they have any say (mostly) they wish in rules. Freedom of speech does not stretch across all corners of the internet.

-Tanner
I don't have a problem with that. They should however give you some warning that language is monitored and there should be a list of what is permissable and not and the admins should abide by it. As it stands, you join a game and the intro msg says no swearing. My idea of what constitues swearing and what the server owners idea of what constitutes swearing, and the admins idea of what constitutes swearing may be 3 different things. What I said was NOT vulgar, and it wasn't swearing. What may be bad language on one server is ok on another. Something innocent on one server is seen as evil on another. I used to be Smiling Bob the Enzyte Man until an Admin took offense to everything after the word Bob and kicked me because I had an offensive name.

I don't cheat, purposely TK and apologize when I do tk, unless your on my team and about to cap our flag, and I don't camp. That's another thing that needs to be cleared up. If I'm on your base to take your flag and you spawn in front of me, you are dead meat, same as if you spawned in front of me anywhere else on the map. On Silvercat you can be kicked for camping but it's up to the individual admin to define camping.

If you are going to disallow swearing on your server fine, but define "swearing" and make sure your admins know what it is. The same with camping and TK'ing. Define them and make sure your admins follow the definition.

It would be easier to have fun playing the game if I didn't have to worry about whether or not the admin was going to take offense at something I said, or decided that I tk'ed the teammate who spawned in front of me as I pulled the trigger, or that the opponent I killed while grabbing the flag of his base was a case of camping.

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Post by JeffM » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:48 am

there is no rule or "law" that says all servers must inform you, some do some don't. welcome to the internet.

sure it would be nice everyone knew what everyone else wanted, but then we'd not have things like wars.

you learn the rules of a server by playing at it. if the admins don't warn reasonalby well, then that isn't a well admined server, find one that is.

as you said yourself it's up to each admin/owner/person to define there own rules. Since you admit that, then complaining about somone having a difrent set of rules then what you think is "right" is just silly.

the specifics of your case don't realy matter here, if you have a problem with the admin or server op, take it up in private with them, as it's just between you 2.

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Post by soad freak » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:56 am

just be nice end of story. if inable to say somthing nice dont say it

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Post by meeba » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:25 am

really, I don't think it's so much the server admins that have a problem with language so much as younger players, or people like BinarySpike (who I know really hates foul language).

I don't mind language or name-calling, so long as it's fairly clean and it doesn't cause problems. I have a word filter on, but obviously that doesn't fix everything. But you do what you can to make it fun for everyone.

The server admins are only thinking of users in their language policies, I do believe.

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Post by CannonBallGuy » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:39 am

Ok, how about you pay $50/month for a server - then you can have all the freedom you like.

As for a warning, that's what "The admin, AxisArmour, said it was rude and vulgar." would have been. He could have banned you on sight, I would have considered a kick at least.
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Post by t2m » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:12 pm

Hi,

Here's my bit...
I don't know if you are a homeowner or not but it would be like somebody visiting and telling me what is acceptable or not acceptable, in my house.

Great suggestions above to buy/rent your own server, then we can visit your server and play bz with your preferences.


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Post by Sky King » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:13 pm

I don't think there needs to be a list or an up front warning...

Hey, I cuss like a sailor in some settings, I am no prude, believe me... But not here on BZ. And in fact, not anywhere where there's 10 year old kids, or people who don't know me well enough to understand me well enough to know how to take it.

This is a community. We're all here to play a game, we're all here for POSITIVE interchanges, we're all here for fun, and for comaradarie.

Go back and read that paragraph again. Did I say anything about trash-talking? About being verbally demeaning? About trying to walk a fine line between free speech or political correctness?

NO! BZ isn't about that. It's about the spirit of friendly competition, not about diminishing others. If you're sitting there at the keyboard trying to figure out how to hurt someone's feelings without using any official swear words... Then why not just save keystrokes and use F12?

I get pretty direct with my teammates sometimes, many of you have seen that in Boxy... but not insulting, not demeaning, not vulgar... there's no place for that here. It just isn't part of what this is, and if it's what you're looking for, then why not just look elsewhere? Not for our sake, but for yours?

If you find yourself walking the line... then go to MOFO, where that stuff is encouraged, don't vent it on a server where the owner has formally stated in the login "no vulgarity, swearing, or abuse". Or, as others have said, fire up your own server and make your own rules.

AND... It isn't just about the specific language... it's about being a team player in team games, about trying your best if you're on a team, it's about treating your teammates, opponents, and newbies with respect... and if those things don't appeal to you... if treating everyone in the game like a friend doesn't appeal to you, then why stay? Why be part of it? It's more than a game, it's a community.

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Post by io » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:00 pm

When did the religious right take over bzflag? Someone complained on BoxyWar that I was swearing when I sad, "BLANKING RED CAMPER FEMALE DOGS". The admin, AxisArmour, said it was rude and vulgar. Have we lost freedom of speech in this game? We are prohibited from saying something that might offend a child who uses worse everyday with his friends. This is ridiculous.
Well ... humans do what humans think is right ... if they ban you ... well ... if they kick you well ... there is no way to change it.

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Post by meeba » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:38 pm

I don't mind cursing myself, in fact, I'm one of the most profane people you will ever find. But as meantioned before, this is a community. When I play bzflag, I respect others. Not everyone likes profanity so much. A few people who play on my server hate it, and as such, we don't allow it there.

Of course being rude comes from having a good time for a lot of us, but there are those who act different when having fun, and it is those people who we have to respect.

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Post by Skeeve » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:16 am

Smiling Bob wrote:I don't have a problem with that. They should however give you some warning that language is monitored and there should be a list of what is permissable ...
Do you know how this sounds to me? It sounds like a small child crying because his favourite toy has been taken. Come on. Don't be a sissy and learn from it.
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Post by io » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:23 pm

Do you know how this sounds to me? It sounds like a small child crying because his favourite toy has been taken. Come on. Don't be a sissy and le
Skeeve ... i hope you do not get the "bad forum guy" here :P ^^
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Post by Skeeve » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:13 pm

Mark wrote:Skeeve ... i hope you do not get the "bad forum guy" here :P ^^
I'm used to become that guy on any forum I'm in. But don't you have to admit that he gives the impression I stated?
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Post by pyr0 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:33 pm

AxisArmour has a problem with language. During the first section of the OpenLeague VS Mofo Tourny, he was told to "administrate" to make sure no one joined the server to a team while match was in order, unless obs. Well, one of the other obs had let a few cuss words fly, he got angry and threatened to kick, so we explained that cussing is allowed per openleague rules, he tried to fight it, against myself, the OL Site Admin/Web Coder and several other Admins of OL. Then Mr_Molez told him that it is allowed, but didnt say he couldnt kick and ban, so we pissed him off into leaving. Really, admins SHOULD follow rules of servers, and if they dont like the rules either, they shouldnt admin or play there. As for how they see the rules, thats up to each admin to decide and work with.

For example, yesterday I banned 2 players on Hepcat PB. One for intentional bad mouthing of players in PM, 2 of which told me about it, one of them I've played with for as long as i can remember. Then he went a step too far and was TK'ing because someone "bothered" him. The other was someone who wanted to act out and had the nerve to come into hepcat, after spamming the OpenLeague shoutbox with 40+ messages, and bad mouth me and a very good friend in this game, once the language got fairly abusive and more then 1 user, non admin, people i never played with, asked me to remove him, I did so. Then proceeded to ban from from the OL site as well.

Once again, up to that admin to decide. I decided that the language and TKing was too much by player A and he didnt listen to my warnings. Player B wouldnt quit and several other players wanted him removed, so I did so.

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Post by loophole » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:24 pm

everyone has good points. here's my .02 on "swearing" rules

Unlike most online shooter games, the status quo in bzland is that "swearing" is not allowed. Smiling bob is right that "swearing" is a totally arbitrary term. I can't tell you what it means....

Because most servers forbid "swearing" certain ones feel the need to advertise that they allow "swearing" (Mofo). This wouldn't be the case if most other servers didn't forbid it.

I think both policies are misguided.

Allowing "swearing" (and relishing in it) is probably supposed to attract adults. I think it does the opposite and just attracts immature kids.

Forbidding swearing as I mentioned before is totally arbitrary. "nfs" was a a pretty common utterance in quake, its swearing but its also a friendly compliment.

Admins should obviously know the rules on the server they are adminning on :roll:. The goal should not be to stamp out bad language but to foster a friendly play atmosphere.

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Post by Sky King » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:26 pm

Cosmol wrote:The goal should not be to stamp out bad language but to foster a friendly play atmosphere.
Well said. That was the point I was trying to make early with many more words... That the problem I see isn't swearing, or 'playful' trash-talking... Rather, it's this kind of bitter, biting contempt that is often expressed, with or without swearing, that I think has no place here. But still, I believe that the prevailing philosophy of most server owners is no swearing/no abuse, and as such, those wishes should be honored by players and admins. Accusing them of being religious zealots simply because they want a respectful, age appropriate atmosphere... seems a rather contemptuous way to look at the people who are "paying the freight" here by contributing the maps and servers that make this all possible.
Cosmol wrote:Admins should obviously know the rules on the server they are adminning on
Well said again... I think that all too often, owners don't spell out their expectations to their admins... And that admins often use their own philosophy instead of the owner's. I think it is incumbent upon admins to ask themselves "what would the owner do" and act on the owner's behalf, not on their own.

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