Better CTF

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Red Cobra
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Better CTF

Post by Red Cobra » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:07 am

In the next release of BZFlag can the devs think about increasing the amount of points you get when you cap a flag? I meen right now there really isn't any reward to capping a flag. I think it should be made so it's like geno; where you get all the points of killing everyone on the other team(s). Or you could make it so in the .bzw file you can specify how many points you get on cap. Like: -pointsoncap. Or somethin like that. Thanks.




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Post by biggeruniverse » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:26 am

Well, the problem with this (which I'm sure has been discussed previously, though I don't feel like hunting for it) is that then capturing the flag is no longer a team effort for a team gain. Furthermore, what skill have you used to deserve those points? At least with geno you have to *hit someone*.

If this were to get implemented, allow me to name it: "American Capitalism CTF", in honor of the fact that it is one person profiting from the work of many.

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Post by Grace F » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:02 am

biggeruniverse wrote: If this were to get implemented, allow me to name it: "American Capitalism CTF", in honor of the fact that it is one person profiting from the work of many.
True, when i first read what RC wrote i was like "Ow good idea", but then i thought that it wouldnt be fair on the rest of your team if they were the ones bringing it to your base, dieing on the way and you come along, pick it up and 2 secs later cap.

There might be a way in which the whole team benefits from a cap, but there isnt 1 i can think of right now...
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Post by L4m3r » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:34 am

Currently there is a problem involving the protocol and the client when it comes to setting a player's score. Basically, you can't do it.

The protocol has been fixed already in 2.1 and when we begin using that it will be a simple matter to implement with a plug-in. in fact, I think a "points for CTF" plugin will probably be the first new plugin to be released following 2.2.0.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.

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Post by Triumph of the Soul » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:17 am

I thought you guys wouldn't care what the result of the flag capture is, or what team scores are achieved. After all, the main attractiveness of a CTF game (or at least a well designed one) is working with your team mates to get the flag to your base. Actually capturing the flag is only an added bonus. I wouldn't care if team scores were never displayed, or even recorded in a game.
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Post by asciimonster » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:53 am

I always try to capture the flag, because I am somehow better in dodging bullits then shooting them. I always do it for the praise you get afterwards. And it's so annoying when you don't get it. So let's make people do it: If they don't praise me, the CTF doesn't count. :twisted:

Oh. Hmm. Obligatory Praise is not much praise, is it? Might have to retink this one. :wink:

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Post by Grace F » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:54 am

A Distraction wrote:the main attractiveness of a CTF game (or at least a well designed one) is working with your teammates to get the flag to your base.
Yea but what im thinking is, if their was a "benefit" at the end of a cap, people would be encouraged to do it. There are only so few on a server at a time who do make an effort to cap a flag BUT without the help of their "teammates" its a difficult challenge.

I notice this most on Hepcap and servers alike where you cant really camp... where working as a team is the goal! I see many players fly right past a Team Flag whether it be the enemies or their own. They just dont care for capping as it doesnt do much except send the other team home.

Hepcap is 1 of my favy servers because of the "Team Work" it can produce. Good team server!
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Post by meeba » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:34 pm

Maybe if points were giving to a player for capping a flag, I'd finally have a positive score on Hepcat! Or Silvercat!

I think it's a good idea, and even if it doesn't make it into the original game, 2.2 is supposed to be able to do it with plugins.

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Post by ducktape » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:36 pm

If u were a Admin on a server its a nother easy way to get kills. sit on ur purple base Type /flag give <urself> R* with a bunch of bots and stuff and get tons of ponts. could get really annoying.
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Post by L4m3r » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:08 pm

ducktape wrote:If u were a Admin on a server its a nother easy way to get kills. sit on ur purple base Type /flag give <urself> R* with a bunch of bots and stuff and get tons of ponts. could get really annoying.
So? no one would play there then.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.

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Post by Red Cobra » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:47 pm

Or you could make it so the whole team benefits 2 points and the person who capped it earns 4. Also there is some skill to capturing a flag. Almost as much as actually shooting and killing people. You have to design your passage through the map so you don't get killed. Not to mention killing people with your own bullets on the way there. I enoy capping flags as a team effort, I just think we need more of a reward. I don't care what it is, just more of a reward.
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Post by meeba » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:18 pm

Red Cobra wrote:Or you could make it so the whole team benefits 2 points and the person who capped it earns 4. Also there is some skill to capturing a flag. Almost as much as actually shooting and killing people. You have to design your passage through the map so you don't get killed. Not to mention killing people with your own bullets on the way there. I enoy capping flags as a team effort, I just think we need more of a reward. I don't care what it is, just more of a reward.
Agreed. Especially for those of us who suck at shooting, but are good at sneaking around with team flags.

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Post by Triumph of the Soul » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:59 pm

TangenT wrote:
Red Cobra wrote:Or you could make it so the whole team benefits 2 points and the person who capped it earns 4. Also there is some skill to capturing a flag. Almost as much as actually shooting and killing people. You have to design your passage through the map so you don't get killed. Not to mention killing people with your own bullets on the way there. I enoy capping flags as a team effort, I just think we need more of a reward. I don't care what it is, just more of a reward.
Agreed. Especially for those of us who suck at shooting, but are good at sneaking around with team flags.
That's where I must disagree with you. CTF should not be a supplement for people who are not good at shooting the enemy. The enemy team may have a really good player on it that can shoot you all, but your team as a whole can capture their flag. This would get very frustrating for the lone good player who has team mates who don't really care about the CTF game as a whole. If you can gang up as a team to capture the enemy's flag, why don't you try ganging up to shoot them instead? Otherwise, you would just be pitting players with different objectives and values against each other.
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Post by GMMan » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:38 pm

Just something to think about: You're only half dead when you get capped. You drop your flag, die, and get spawned at base (usually) the next time. But your score doesn't change, and neither does your rampage/killing spree status doesn't change. Just something to think about.
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Post by Red Cobra » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:30 pm

GMMan wrote:Just something to think about: You're only half dead when you get capped. You drop your flag, die, and get spawned at base (usually) the next time. But your score doesn't change, and neither does your rampage/killing spree status doesn't change. Just something to think about.

Exactly. You don't get any reward what-so-ever, except for putting the people back to their base. You don't even subtract their score.
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Post by biggeruniverse » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:04 pm

No reward? Did you never see the team score up in the corner? It seems to me you are being phenomenally selfish. You certainly don't seem interested in working for the team's good if there is no reward in it for you personally.

To what GMMan is saying, you basically want the whole other team to lose a point for being capped, in addition to being capped.

Maybe the capper could also get a SW flag from the server and get automatically teleported to the capped team's base, just so he could rub it in more.

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Post by Red Cobra » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:04 pm

biggeruniverse wrote:No reward? Did you never see the team score up in the corner? It seems to me you are being phenomenally selfish. You certainly don't seem interested in working for the team's good if there is no reward in it for you personally.


Dude, don't be so harsh. That team score stays up for ever and ever. It doesn't really meen anything, because people have capped and recapped so much. It's not relevant to the time your on. And no i'm not being selfish, how am I being selfish if I want the whole team to get more points?
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Post by CannonBallGuy » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:23 pm

Think about this:
You're on a CTF server with your suggested 'improvements'.
Another team takes your flag, you try to stop them but are outnumbered 5-1 and none of your teammates help you.
Everyone on your team, including you, lose a point for this. Everyone on the other team gains a point.
This is repeated every 30 seconds until you leave with a score of -?.
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Post by Triumph of the Soul » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:19 pm

CannonBallGuy wrote:Think about this:
You're on a CTF server with your suggested 'improvements'.
Another team takes your flag, you try to stop them but are outnumbered 5-1 and none of your teammates help you.
Everyone on your team, including you, lose a point for this. Everyone on the other team gains a point.
This is repeated every 30 seconds until you leave with a score of -?.
I agree CBG. As I said in my last post, players would use flag capturing as a replacement for actually facing the enemy head on. Except with the new "Better CTF" you would be unable to distinguish which point they lost from CTF (indirect kills) vs getting shot (direct kills) this would be extremely frustrating for the player who has their flag being captured.
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Post by Grace F » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:16 am

CannonBallGuy wrote:Think about this:
You're on a CTF server with your suggested 'improvements'.
Another team takes your flag, you try to stop them but are outnumbered 5-1 and none of your teammates help you.
Everyone on your team, including you, lose a point for this. Everyone on the other team gains a point.
This is repeated every 30 seconds until you leave with a score of -?.
That's why you shouldnt lose points for being capped on, it's just not fair.
Maybe, if there was to be a reward for the team capping, maybe it shouldnt have anything to do with their points....nor the other teams points but something different.

Anyway, the other team shouldnt get punished for being capped on.
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Post by temporal distraction » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:53 am

I think CTF would be better served if the individual scores were removed entirely. Then the only reward/punishment for capping would be the team score.

Of course, I'm sure that will never happen.

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Post by meeba » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:56 am

If you really want it to be about the team score, make a server where the player score is always zero.

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Post by Red Cobra » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:07 am

TangenT wrote:If you really want it to be about the team score, make a server where the player score is always zero.

I don't think you can do that. Maybe plugins?
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Post by Red Cobra » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:14 am

CannonBallGuy wrote:Think about this:
You're on a CTF server with your suggested 'improvements'.
Another team takes your flag, you try to stop them but are outnumbered 5-1 and none of your teammates help you.
Everyone on your team, including you, lose a point for this. Everyone on the other team gains a point.
This is repeated every 30 seconds until you leave with a score of -?.
Then make the points earned less. More like 1-2 and for the other team take away like 1-2. Eventually the people will want to start trying to get the flag. It'll be a little more like HTF this way. Everyone is after the flag nonestop. That's why it's called Capture the Flag. So you can capture the flag. Not shoot people and let other people capture the flag. Constantly going after the flag then getting it and having everyone on the other team chasing after you and capturing it is really fun. If you just want to shoot people, go play FFA.
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Post by JeffM » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:32 am

in 2.1 plug-ins can set the player scores.
2.0.x can not.

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