Idea: make poll voting mandatory

Make suggestions for improving one of the best games on the net!
Post Reply
Mac Rep
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:40 am

Idea: make poll voting mandatory

Post by Mac Rep »

Often players don't know how to vote or don't notice there is a poll going on. Also there are situations where you don't have the time to type "n /vote yes" (or no).

My idea is to extend the time limit of 60 seconds to 120 seconds and additionally ask each player who didn't vote yet for his vote as soon as he dies.

Answers options should then be
  • Yes
  • No
  • Don't care (or whatever is appropriate english for this option)
What Do you think?

Edit: A reason for the poll should be mandatory too:
/poll ban "Mac Rep" for "Being a bugger"
Or something like that so that the question one is asked can show the reason for the poll.
<hr>
Mac Rep is a Raga Man
User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme »

The time limit for the poll is easy enough to change; it's a server configuration option. As for making the poll extra-visible during the explosion time, that's not a bad idea.
User avatar
Joe-Schmoe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:10 am
Location: This field unintentionally left blank.

Post by Joe-Schmoe »

A little reminder like that every time you die WOULD be beneficial. The question for me is: should you be able to spawn without voting?

If you're forced to vote, then people might just hit "don't care" right away and keep playing, which would eliminate the purpose.
Join MI6!
User avatar
L4m3r
Hater of Everything
Hater of Everything
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:15 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by L4m3r »

Another idea would be to just not count people who don't vote, and instead take a tally only from those who actually voted. Or, perhaps, and abstaining vote could count for a partial vote, instead of of a whole "no" vote.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.
Mac Rep
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:40 am

Post by Mac Rep »

Joe-Schmoe wrote:If you're forced to vote, then people might just hit "don't care" right away and keep playing, which would eliminate the purpose.
Hmmm... And what is the difference in the result if you click "don't care" because you don't like being bugged and not voting because you... hmmm... don't care? ;-)

I just see the benefit in that you:
a) Can vote without much ado (just click)
b) You can easily vote when you have the time (i.e. you wait for respawn)
L4m3r wrote:Another idea would be to just not count people who don't vote, and instead take a tally only from those who actually voted.
Why not both? BTW: I didn't think non-voters were counted as No-votes. Hmmmm... Not good. So I support your idea. "don't care" (i.e. non-voters at the moment) usually means "I go with the majority".
<hr>
Mac Rep is a Raga Man
ts
Dev Monkey
Dev Monkey
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

Post by ts »

My opinion is that players hardly know how to vote. We should bind "/vote yes" and "/vote no" to two different keys and put those keys in the poll message. That way people would not have to type that much and therefore it would be easier to get votes, especially from newbies.
GU league: http://www.guleague.org/
An introduction to TCP: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/
User avatar
Joe-Schmoe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:10 am
Location: This field unintentionally left blank.

Post by Joe-Schmoe »

Hmmm... And what is the difference in the result if you click "don't care" because you don't like being bugged and not voting because you... hmmm... don't care?
Well, it may just become an automatic reflex to hit "don't care", just like one automatically hits "i" or whatever they have mapped to respawn.

I like the idea though. Actually, I think all the changes discussed here would improve the voting system. I don't believe I've ever seen a successful poll ban/kick.
Join MI6!
User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme »

Joe-Schmoe wrote:I don't believe I've ever seen a successful poll ban/kick.
Heh, it definitely happens... usually when there's a really bad language issue, or very high lag, or blatant cheating. It is difficult to get everyone's attention sometimes, though.

The best solution, really, is to have a sufficient number of qualified admins so that they're able to cover the server as often as possible.
User avatar
too much loving
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Idea: make poll voting mandatory

Post by too much loving »

Mac Rep wrote: A reason for the poll should be mandatory too:
/poll ban "Mac Rep" for "Being a bugger"
Or something like that so that the question one is asked can show the reason for the poll.
That would help a lot. At least I would vote more often if they always knew the reason for the poll.

The typical pattern is that a player starts a poll without providing any explanation. I don't like voting yes withot knowing the reason for the poll. Sometimes I start asking questions, but it also happens that I feel lazy and I just ignore the poll.
F687/s
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:30 pm

Post by F687/s »

> I don't believe I've ever seen a successful poll ban/kick.

> ... usually when there's a really bad language issue, or very high lag, or blatant cheating.


No, I've been banned/kicked a few times, for apparently no reason. To top it off, by the time I ask why I was, I'm kicked off the server.

A good plug-in would be to make a mechanism for executing arbitrary commands by poll. For example:

/poll set _shotsKeepVerticalVelocity 1

would start a poll to execute the command if the majority complied. A variation would be

/poll "Should we stop CTF?"

The only problem would be integrating it so that you could have the old functionality without having users learn a new set of slash commands. Can you override slash commands in BZFS?

In addition, voting is mainly server-side, and shouldn't be integrated into the client.
User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme »

F687/s wrote:A good plug-in would be to make a mechanism for executing arbitrary commands by poll. For example:

/poll set _shotsKeepVerticalVelocity 1

would start a poll to execute the command if the majority complied. A variation would be

/poll "Should we stop CTF?"
Polls to set variables, reset flags, kick, and ban are currently implemented. The problem with arbitrary command execution is that some things just aren't meant to be decided by popular vote. For instance, what about a poll to set yourself to the LOCAL.ADMIN group? Or a poll to execute a server shutdown? Or a poll to ban a large range of IPs? Clearly server owners don't want this kind of capability in the hands of the players.
F687/s wrote:The only problem would be integrating it so that you could have the old functionality without having users learn a new set of slash commands. Can you override slash commands in BZFS?

In addition, voting is mainly server-side, and shouldn't be integrated into the client.
Slash commands can be overriden in the 2.1 development version. The poll and voting framework is already almost 100% server-side, unless I'm mistaken. But why would you need to change the commands at all? You can add options, perhaps (for instance, "/poll changemap <mapname>" for a mapchange plugin), but this is about as straightforward as you can get.
User avatar
L4m3r
Hater of Everything
Hater of Everything
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:15 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by L4m3r »

Constitution wrote:Slash commands can be overriden in the 2.1 development version. The poll and voting framework is already almost 100% server-side, unless I'm mistaken. But why would you need to change the commands at all? You can add options, perhaps (for instance, "/poll changemap <mapname>" for a mapchange plugin), but this is about as straightforward as you can get.
Yes, being able to add options to /poll was the primary reason I suggested that to Jeff in the first place. 2.1 will make that very easy. :)
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.
User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme »

L4m3r wrote:Yes, being able to add options to /poll was the primary reason I suggested that to Jeff in the first place. 2.1 will make that very easy. :)
Even better would be a custom poll option framework, something like the custom slash command handler we have now. Poll options could be registered with a list of options and a pointer to a handler called when the poll is successful, etc.
User avatar
L4m3r
Hater of Everything
Hater of Everything
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:15 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by L4m3r »

Constitution wrote:Even better would be a custom poll option framework, something like the custom slash command handler we have now. Poll options could be registered with a list of options and a pointer to a handler called when the poll is successful, etc.
Not really. IMO being able to simply override commands would be much more versatile, and would not require any "special" stuff in the API. It may be just a little more complex for this situation, but on the whole it gives more capabilities with less work. ;)

In fact, I think command handling in 2.1 would make everything discussed in this thread possible with a plug-in. :)
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.
User avatar
macsforme
General
General
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:43 am

Post by macsforme »

L4m3r wrote:Not really. IMO being able to simply override commands would be much more versatile, and would not require any "special" stuff in the API. It may be just a little more complex for this situation, but on the whole it gives more capabilities with less work. ;)

In fact, I think command handling in 2.1 would make everything discussed in this thread possible with a plug-in. :)
Indeed - I didn't mean that poll hooks in the API should replace overriding slash commands... just that creating a framework for custom poll options would probably be a better idea than creating an entire poll manager from scratch (with the plugin) when implementing it. It would also allow for different kind of custom polls (something not possible when one plugin totally overrides the /poll and /vote commands). For instance, you could have a mapchange poll option, and a poll option to vote for the "admin of the month", and a poll to vote whether players like the map, etc.

It's also just a lot less work in general, IMHO. No need to create or adapt a huge poll manager framework into a plugin that's otherwise simple.
User avatar
L4m3r
Hater of Everything
Hater of Everything
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:15 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by L4m3r »

Constitution wrote:Indeed - I didn't mean that poll hooks in the API should replace overriding slash commands... just that creating a framework for custom poll options would probably be a better idea than creating an entire poll manager from scratch (with the plugin) when implementing it. It would also allow for different kind of custom polls (something not possible when one plugin totally overrides the /poll and /vote commands). For instance, you could have a mapchange poll option, and a poll option to vote for the "admin of the month", and a poll to vote whether players like the map, etc.

It's also just a lot less work in general, IMHO. No need to create or adapt a huge poll manager framework into a plugin that's otherwise simple.
We could add some utility functions to make poll handling easier, but I don't think a new handler would be necessary.

Also, overriding commands would not be an all-or-nothing deal. iirc the handler will have a "handled" flag so that commands can be handled normally. This would also allow multiple plug-ins to handle the same command, one after another, without stepping on each other's toes.
Optimism is just a milder alternative to denial.
F687/s
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:30 pm

Post by F687/s »

Constitution wrote:Polls to set variables, reset flags, kick, and ban are currently implemented. The problem with arbitrary command execution is that some things just aren't meant to be decided by popular vote. For instance, what about a poll to set yourself to the LOCAL.ADMIN group? Or a poll to execute a server shutdown? Or a poll to ban a large range of IPs? Clearly server owners don't want this kind of capability in the hands of the players.
Yes, just as map files are restricted in their options, so should polls. One way to do this would be a magic "poll" group, or letting only admins set those kind of polls, or using some whiz-bang object coded in Python.
L4m3r wrote:Also, overriding commands would not be an all-or-nothing deal. iirc the handler will have a "handled" flag so that commands can be handled normally. This would also allow multiple plug-ins to handle the same command, one after another, without stepping on each other's toes.
Kind of like the Apache way of handling plug-ins, where each one along the chain gets to handle the request, and the chain stops when one plug-in says it is finished. I remember implementing something like this in another app, where the program passed the information to each plug-in, and they returned whether they WILL handle the request (at which point the program lets it), whether it WON'T handle the request (excluding it), or whether it CAN handle the request (at which point the server makes a decision). Of course, letting everyone handle the slash command in their own way will result in sheer chaos, causing plug-ins to be named "AAAAAVoteController" in order to be higher up in the chain, and whatever.
Constitution wrote:Even better would be a custom poll option framework, something like the custom slash command handler we have now. Poll options could be registered with a list of options and a pointer to a handler called when the poll is successful, etc.
As far as I know, voting isn't an essential part of BZFlag; it is just there to kick people without them knowing why (um...). Most of the servers are run under a sort of dictatorship, where vote is a justified /kick.

Just my opinions.
User avatar
an alien
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:54 am
Location: So far away you can't even begin to comprehend it...man...

Post by an alien »

I think that's a good idea and I agree. Although I agree witht he others. There should be a thing where it only tallys people who vote so if there's 8 registered on and 4 vote then it'd count the four. That's a really good idea. :)
User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by ducatiwannabe »

ts wrote:My opinion is that players hardly know how to vote. We should bind "/vote yes" and "/vote no" to two different keys and put those keys in the poll message. That way people would not have to type that much and therefore it would be easier to get votes, especially from newbies.
This seems to be the most logical suggestion so far, but all of them are good. We need a better voting system. 8)

However, I don't like the thought of not being able to spawn until you've voted. Players shouldn't be prohibited like that... takes some of the fun out of the game. Besides, somebody might just start a poll as they shoot you so that you can't spawn for a few more seconds, and they capture your flag! :P
User avatar
*Boinkage*!
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 1:49 am
Location: Behind you with a stealth flag.

Post by *Boinkage*! »

That would be quite annoying

I thought that it should make two icons pop up on the screen, preferably the top, but it could be changed: One will say "Yes" and the other will say "No". You click on the one you want (It doesn't make you shoot).

An abstain does NOT count for a vote at all. Non-Registered people can't vote, but again are reminded if they want to join the community, which would let them vote in polls, among alot of other things.

People who abstain a lot can choose to ignore any poll, but, of course, do not count in it.

I thought I already posted here...
The Pen is Mightier Than the Sword.

Okay, you get a Bic, the orc gets a long sword.

He cuts the Bic in half.

Then he cuts you in half.

Oops, I meant quarters.
User avatar
joevano
General
General
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:08 pm
Location: South Bend, Indiana, USA

Post by joevano »

There really isn't a reason that both solutions could not be implemented. The only concern would be that someone may mean to shoot and not vote (or vote the wrong way [no when they meant yes, and vise versa]) as the "icons" would appear. Yes, their mouse would have to be at the location that the icons appeared for this to be an issue, but it will happen.
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." -- Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
blast
General
General
Posts: 4812
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: playing.cxx
Contact:

Post by blast »

The buttons used to trigger a vote could be something like Shift + F5 and Shift + F6. The actual poll that is running could be displayed at the top of the screen so that it wasn't overly intrusive, along with the keys for how to vote.
"In addition to knowing the secrets of the Universe, I can assure you that I am also quite potty trained." -Koenma (Yu Yu Hakusho)

Image
User avatar
*Boinkage*!
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 1:49 am
Location: Behind you with a stealth flag.

Post by *Boinkage*! »

I can find a problem with the buttons, which would be that you would turn a large amount when clicking them.

I think the two button solution is best, like page up for yes, page down for no.
The Pen is Mightier Than the Sword.

Okay, you get a Bic, the orc gets a long sword.

He cuts the Bic in half.

Then he cuts you in half.

Oops, I meant quarters.
Post Reply