Suggestion for next release - Capture the Map mode

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Suggestion for next release - Capture the Map mode

Post by jftsang » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:50 pm

Capture the Map mode - a new gameplay mode.

Each segment of the map must be captured, and a team must capture more than (say) 80% to win a round. To capture the map they just drive around.

At the start of the round every segment is neutral. A team captures portions of the map by driving around (each tank has a 15-unit radius which falls into their control when they drive around). If you kill a player the 15-unit radius around him would become neutral unless another player is around, in which case the unit falls to the team of that player.

If more than one player occupuy a segment then that segment is counted as neutral until all but one die.

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Post by JeffM » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:03 pm

your describing a much more complicated version of what unreal calls "domination".

The map has specific control points, you touch it, your team gets it.
You win by ether holding all the points for some time, or the teams get points for the number of points they hold over time and it's a score game.

Your system does not work well for 3d maps. and having the server track the volumes of where people have been would be unreasonable.

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Post by Spazzy McGee » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:12 pm

Could this be achieved as a plugin? We already have plugins that trigger actions when tanks enter a given volume, for example wwzones.
Could you not keep track of which volumes have which tanks in, then award the team points for being inside all the 'base' areas?
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Post by JeffM » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:58 pm

yes it could be done, it would be hard to play because the server could not realy give any clear visual indication of who owned what point or area.

you may be able to fake it with some colored world weapon shots, or spawning unreachable team flags

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Post by too much loving » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:04 pm

I am not a bzflag developer, so the following could be wrong:

If I understand the AHOD pluging code correctly then it is possible to create a plugin wakes up ones in a while and count the number of tanks on each base. The plugin can also use a static variable to remember if a base has been taken in the past.
http://trepan.bzflag.bz/noshow/ahod.tar.gz

The problem is that the server does not have a way of telling the players which team controls which base. If a plugin could change the color of a world object (choosing among a small set of options) or place a colored dot on the radar, then it seems that everything else could be done with a plugin.

But then again it looks like the developers are busy enough allready finishing up version 2.2, so perhaps we should not stress them too much :)

EDIT: Oops I was too slow. Jeff gave the answer before I could finish up my post.

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Post by *Boinkage*! » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:08 pm

*Fuse blows*

It's quite confusing. Do you mean that players should be actively holding 80% of the zones, or just having gone over the map?
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Post by ducatiwannabe » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:43 am

If it's anything like Battlefield 1942 or Unreal, simply driving by it makes it yours (though in Battlefield you have to wait a few seconds to confirm taking control). Of course, you have to be active to hold your area, or as you capture a new portion of the map, the opposing team would simply go over the area you've covered already.

I like the idea. It is more complicated than other styles, but it would be fun to play with if it were incorporated. Unfortunately, one of the main problems is, as already discussed, specifying which portion of the map has which team controlling it.

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Post by jftsang » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:29 am

*Boinkage*! wrote:*Fuse blows*

It's quite confusing. Do you mean that players should be actively holding 80% of the zones, or just having gone over the map?
Having gone over. What I originally did think about was something like the RISK board game, but you do not have to garrison in the area to own it, otherwise we would need at least 4 players per team.

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Post by Joe-Schmoe » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:13 pm

It probably wouldn't be too hard to find out who's controlling what...

Let's say the area that people have to try and control is a big blue transparent passable dome. It's a red vs green game. You can just look inside the dome to see what color of tank is in there!

Maybe you could even simply add a line that says "capture" to the code of an object, that line would automatically make the object translucent and passable in addition to "capturable".
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Post by A Meteorite » Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:49 pm

Joe-Schmoe wrote:Maybe you could even simply add a line that says "capture" to the code of an object, that line would automatically make the object translucent and passable in addition to "capturable".
That would severely limit the complexity of a map if you only have one option to do something. These types of things should be fully customizable.

Being able to link another capturable object via a special attribute and then do your own customizations depending on the state, would be much better (could even link a world weapon to a capturable object or multiple linked objects to one capturable object).
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Post by *Boinkage*! » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:17 pm

Ah, yes, I have BF2142. But I forgot the key code =(

Anyways, in it, you do have something like this idea. You run up to a pole and somehow claim the area with your flag. You have to lower the other flag and raise yours if so. BZFlag could be like that, with a few flags spaced around the map. Driving up makes a gauge appear. When it fills, you capture the flag. Teammates can re spawn at these locations. If you get to an enemy-controlled location, you must wait twice as long, the first half to neutralize it, and the second half to claim it. Once every three minutes, all flags under your control give your team a point.

Who thinks that the idea is just a teeny bit complicated?
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Post by capping for the team » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:18 pm

wat if you onl have 2 people on the map though

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Post by too much loving » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:15 pm

I think that the following idea can be done as a plugin:

The map contains around 6 "bases". Whenever a tank is present on a base, but there are no opponents the base is captured. When a base is captured the server sends a normal server message, but apart from that there are no visual clues, so the players have to be observant. As soon as all the bases have been captured each team gets points for the number of bases that is holds and the game is reset. These resets should happen quite frequently, and the game should become a bit of a racing game.

EDIT: Deranting

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Post by that exploding tank » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:29 am

I think that this would work great, although I kinda like Jeff's suggestion better, which is firing sw wws in the air above to indicate which team had captured which position. Server messages can get quite annoying, especially if they constantly barrage your chat window.

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Post by macsforme » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:15 am

too much loving wrote:The map contains around 6 "bases". Whenever a tank is present on a base, but there are no opponents the base is captured. When a base is captured the server sends a normal server message, but apart from that there are no visual clues, so the players have to be observant. As soon as all the bases have been captured each team gets points for the number of bases that is holds and the game is reset. These resets should happen quite frequently, and the game should become a bit of a racing game.
Yes, plugins can handle the internals of what you're talking about now... it's the visual indicators in the client where there is difficulty.

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:12 am

Place a sign, number, or some sort of marking above the "base" and then get a plugin to send a server message saying which "base" has been taken by which team. For example:

SRVMSG:
Blue Team Controls: Base 1, Base 5, Base 6
Red Team Controls: Base 2, Base 3, and Base 0

Something like that, perhaps. With an easy-to-see and easy-to-distinguish marking, it could actually be a very interesting playing style.

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Post by macsforme » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:20 am

Implenting "bases" for non-conventional use seems rather specific and limited, IMHO. Perhaps there is a better choice, like enabling plugins to change textures on meshes, that will be a more universal solution.

The problem with implementing it right now is that it would necessitate breaking the protocol in 2.0.x, which we aren't about to do. 2.1 (the current development version) is generally designed to be much more flexible.

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Post by blast » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:39 am

Constitution wrote:The problem with implementing it right now is that it would necessitate breaking the protocol in 2.0.x, which we aren't about to do. 2.1 (the current development version) is generally designed to be much more flexible.
The protocol of 2.0.x would never be broken, since any 2.0.x client and server combination is supposed to work with the same behavior. 2.1 is "flexible" at this point since it is a development version, and is not going to be released with that version number. Once it is released as 2.2, it will be just like 2.0.x in regards to protocol changes. There is nothing about any version being "designed" to be more flexible.
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Post by Joe-Schmoe » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:22 pm

Constitution wrote:Implenting "bases" for non-conventional use seems rather specific and limited, IMHO. Perhaps there is a better choice, like enabling plugins to change textures on meshes, that will be a more universal solution.
Actually, the way this is looking, we just need a whole bunch of things that trigger when a tank enters or exits a zone. We already have things like wwzones that require plugins. Even just the concept of changing textures on meshes has some pretty cool implications. Those are just two uses...as long as enough things are "triggerable", you'll be able to make new game styles based on how the zones work.

One could even use the server variables to store numbers. You could do things like increase thiefAdLife when there are no Theif flags, for instance. Then later when theifAdLife is 5, trigger a WW and set theifAdLife back to 0.

This would enable many, many new concepts, including capture the base. I'm just not sure about the part where it checks to see what the value is for a variable...it's not clear that that is actually possible.
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Post by F687/s » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:20 pm

One solution you're overlooking to provide visual feedback is world weapons.

Seriously.

The trick is to use a "glass" tube, in the center of a base that is to be captured. When somebody walks into it (either instantaneously, or for a certain period of time), a world weapon fires inside the tube (Laser) that is the color of the team. If you set Laser as having a life of 5 seconds it doesn't get that annoying. When another person claims the spot (by one of the methods stated above), the color of the WW changes. This method would provide feedback, with minimal kludge-ness.

Just my thoughts.

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Post by macsforme » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:39 pm

F687/s wrote:One solution you're overlooking to provide visual feedback is world weapons.
That's a good point, and I don't think it's being overlooked... however, there are issues with using world weapons as crayons. One issue is that it limits how you're going to use those weapons in-game. If you use SW's, for instance, you'll probably want to make them small and stagnant, which makes them fairly useless to the player as far as using the flag. For laser, you'll probably want to make it shorter, which again limits its use in-game. Also, you will hear the sounds that firing the weapon makes if you have sound turned on. That's not a huge problem, but can get kind of annoying at times.

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Post by F687/s » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:52 pm

How about, instead of using superflag weapons, you use regular shots, then? As long as the tube is completely sealed (and you have ricochet on), the shots will bounce around inside the tube. Also, since they're normal shots, the sounds aren't all that annoying.

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Post by macsforme » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:58 pm

F687/s wrote:How about, instead of using superflag weapons, you use regular shots, then? As long as the tube is completely sealed (and you have ricochet on), the shots will bounce around inside the tube. Also, since they're normal shots, the sounds aren't all that annoying.
I think there's still a shot sound, and you will definitely hear the rico sound. Still, that's definitely another valid option.

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Post by Joe-Schmoe » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:13 am

Constitution wrote:
F687/s wrote:How about, instead of using superflag weapons, you use regular shots, then? As long as the tube is completely sealed (and you have ricochet on), the shots will bounce around inside the tube. Also, since they're normal shots, the sounds aren't all that annoying.
I think there's still a shot sound, and you will definitely hear the rico sound. Still, that's definitely another valid option.
You could take something like Rapid Fire or MG and turn the shot speed way down. Then it would "float" from the bottom of the tube to the top, without any noise.
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