A Few Ideas.

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Spectre
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A Few Ideas.

Post by Spectre » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:16 pm

Two flag ideas.

1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag.

2) For no-radar servers, a "radar" (RD) flag, with a shot limit or time limit.

3) A BZFS option which destroys a G-holding tank after (X) number of hits with Geno.

Tell me what you think!
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Post by Anthony » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:58 pm

1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag.

That might lead to some tking pain most no shot limit maps are htf.

2) For no-radar servers, a "radar" (RD) flag, with a shot limit or time limit.
Err all ready posted.

3) A BZFS option which destroys a G-holding tank after (X) number of hits with Geno.
Say what? More info pleese.

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Post by joevano » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:40 pm

3) Why not just set a flag shot limit? What is the purpose of killing them? It is not needed
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Post by Quantum Tank » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:48 pm

donny_baker wrote:3) Why not just set a flag shot limit? What is the purpose of killing them? It is not needed
I think he means to kill the player after x hits with geno, not just shots.

2) yes, it has already been suggested.

1) this seems like a very narrow-use (and map-specific) flag, it would probably better to make a plugin (although I don't think thats possible, I'm pretty sure that plugins can't modify server variables, and especially not for 1 person), rather than release a whole new flag.

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Post by joevano » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:19 pm

There already is a plugin that counts the number of hits with geno and drops the flag, IIRC. Not sure if it was released, think we used it on PMofo for a while.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by MarkIV » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 pm

The Shoot Idea isn't that good, because servers with no shots have a reason for no shots. Mostly maps with an obstetrical course

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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by *Boinkage*! » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:11 am

With the radar flag...it would be really overpowed. Maybe you could make it a "sonar" flag. It gives you ONLY the general location of tanks (offset by 10 bzunits, perhaps?) They would be grey, so you have no idea which team they are on. It would also be a maximum of short or medium range.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:32 am

Big Old Bad Bucko wrote:1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag.
At the first moment it looked like a nonsense idea, however IMO this is a genius idea, which would add much more intense tactics to the game-play!

Let me describe some of my thoughts. The less flags a map would have, all the more important the following tactics would be:
-Good players could pretend to not have any shoots left, by not shooting and by massively dodging. This would make some players careless, so they would come close, and can get shooted easily by the dodger.
-The game would be much more challenging in respect of managing to observe all tanks at the same moment (very difficult). As in an optimal way you would remember how many shoots each tank has left.
-Players with few shoots left, would specially need to think about an appropriate tactic in their actual situation, as when having just 1 or 2 bullets left, they get very vulnerable.
-And so forth...

Additionally this flag would perfectly fit to the desired condition: Easy to learn, but difficult to master.

(However naturally people prefer different game-styles. I personally prefer action-gamestyle instead of making careful moves)
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:43 am

z[h]ero wrote:
Big Old Bad Bucko wrote:1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag.
-Good players could pretend to not have any shoots left, by not shooting and by massively dodging. This would make some players careless, so they would come close, and can get shooted easily by the dodger.
Uhm... they would be massively dodging what? His scenario would be on no-shot servers. On servers with shots, everyone knows you have shots left.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:58 am

joevano wrote:Uhm... they would be massively dodging what?
Naturally there is only one thing which you need to dodge: bullets/shoots.
joevano wrote:His scenario would be on no-shot servers. On servers with shots, everyone knows you have shots left.
Naturally. I wasn't speaking about another scenario.
z[h]ero wrote:-Good players could pretend to not have any shoots left, by not shooting and by massively dodging. This would make some players careless, so they would come close, and can get shooted easily by the dodger.
Ok, I'll explain easily:
If a player just dodges the bullets of an opponent and doesn't actively shoot back at this opponent, then the opponent assumes that he has kinda no bullets left, or maybe no bullets left. So the opponent gets careless and comes close, a perfect occasion to shoot down this opponent now.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:32 pm

But I am still confused... what would a "SO" flag be doing on a server with shots? Everyone already has them. It would be as bad as the useless flag.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:04 pm

joevano wrote:But I am still confused... what would a "SO" flag be doing on a server with shots? Everyone already has them. It would be as bad as the useless flag.
This would be true on a server with shots.
However the topic is about the SO-flag on a no-shot server, like written in the first post:
"1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag."
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:46 pm

Right, so I guess I am failing to see your point about the dodging... there are no bullets. You seem confused, as the two possible scenarios are "maps with no shots" and "maps with shots". Your point about dodging does not make any sense on no-shot servers, you just seem to want to argue any point.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:26 pm

joevano wrote:as the two possible scenarios are "maps with no shots" and "maps with shots". Your point about dodging does not make any sense on no-shot servers
Seriously, where do you get all the time the "maps with shots" from? I already told you several times that we speak about "no-shot" servers (in combination with the SO-flag). So please don't start again with the "maps with shots".
joevano wrote:Your point about dodging does not make any sense on no-shot servers
It make sense on no-shot servers with the SO-flag, like I already explained, feel free to PM me, if you still don't understand that:
If a player just dodges the bullets of an opponent and doesn't actively shoot back at this opponent, then the opponent assumes that he has kinda no bullets left, or maybe no bullets left. So the opponent gets careless and comes close, a perfect occasion to shoot down this opponent now.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:31 pm

If there are no shots... there ARE NO BULLETS to "massively" dodge. A quick 'i' will show that you have the shots flag. You premise is seriously flawed.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:47 pm

joevano wrote:A quick 'i' will show that you have the shots flag.
Yep. (However noobs don't know about this key)
joevano wrote:If there are no shots... there ARE NO BULLETS to "massively" dodge.
Big Old Bad Bucko speaks about no-shot servers, however naturally there ARE shots/bullets due to the SO-flag:
Big Old Bad Bucko wrote:1) A "shoot" (SO) flag, allowing no-shot servers to specify a shot limit when you are holding this flag.
If something is still unclear then PM me. As else it will unnecessary and maybe indefinitely bloat the topic.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:52 pm

If there are that many bullets because of "SO" flags, then maybe the server shouldn't be no-shots. Don't know... still of the opinion that your evaluation of the flag is seriously flawed, or so special case that the flag really wouldn't add anything.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:08 pm

joevano wrote:If there are that many bullets because of "SO" flags, then maybe the server shouldn't be no-shots.
There are equivalent as many/few bullets for SO-flag-owners like the server-operator did set the shot-limit, and you know it. "Big old back Bucko" naturally just temporary invented the name "no-shot"-server for his SO-flag, it naturally maybe isn't the optimal name-convention. The name-convention even absolutely doesn't matter for that topic. Just matters: Whether SO-flag would be a good idea on such server, independently whether the server is called no-shot-server or whatever.
joevano wrote:still of the opinion that your evaluation of the flag is seriously flawed, or so special case that the flag really wouldn't add anything.
My evaluation is the following: It adds more tactics and it fullfills the condition: Easy to learn and difficult to master. If you have another opinion, then you would need to explain your position, as everything else will bloat the topic. (I already explained my position).
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:16 pm

Right... the SO flag would add little to the game. Thanks for pointing it out, if I am to take your logic. If the server the flag is on that is not set up with no shots, by deduction it is on a server with shots, and thus pointless. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:22 pm

joevano wrote:Right... the SO flag would add little to the game. Thanks for pointing it out, if I am to take your logic.
You intensionally prevaricate my words, I didn't tell anything like that in the context of no-shot-servers. Rather I did praise the intensification of the tactics, due to that flag.
joevano wrote:If the flag is a server that is not set up with no shots, by deduction it is on a server with shots, and thus pointless. Thanks for clearing that up.
Exactly, however I was already telling exactly this to you, namely 8 posts previously. (Post at: 7:04 am).
And I told already many posts before several times that the topic is the exactly opposite, namely about the SO-flag on no-shot servers. (Else it wouldn't make sense, like you did find out yourself)
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:40 pm

So I STILL miss your point. I thought you were agreeing with me that the flag IS useless. There are two main scenarios...

1. The server is configured with no shots:
a. There are only one or two 'SO' flags, and no one can defend themselves. No fun in that, the flag is useless.
b. There are many 'SO' flags, so what is the point of having the server be 'no shot'. And those without shots are still defenseless. No fun and useless.

2. The server has shots:
a. The flag is useless...


So in conclusion.... The flag is useless and has no merit.

z[h]ero please stop talking in circles. And thank you for clearing up my point.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:10 pm

z[h]ero please stop talking in circles.
You were talking in circles, however you finally started to discuss seriously with me. So now the situation should get clarified in this post.

(Naturally scenario 2 is pointless, like we already did discuss)

Naturally the server would need to be set-up interestingly in order to make the game-play not pointless. I would agree, too, that scenario 1a and 1b are (kinda) really pointless. That's why I would invent scenario 1c: Let's say maybe about 10-20 flags. Additionally an interresting shot-limit would be needed. And just 1c is exactly the scenario where tactics get intense.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:14 pm

There is no 1 c... In scenario #1 tanks are always defenseless to shots, unless they have a shot flag. If I have the SO flag I just hold my shot until I drive up to a tank and shoot him at point blank range. I never miss. Defenseless tanks takes the fun out of the game, and therefore again, make the flag useless and not worth implementing.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by z[h]ero » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:42 pm

I invented scenario 1c in order to have not too many and not too few SO flags. As these 2 extremum would make SO kinda pointelss. Like always/often keeping the golden mean is the key. (That's why servers with 1 shots or 20 shots generally arn't popular, due to their extremum)
joevano wrote:If I have the SO flag I just hold my shot until I drive up to a tank and shoot him at point blank range. I never miss.
An experienced player without SO-flag normally wouldn't give you the opportunity to let you so close to him. For example he would simply drive away from you (so that you can't come closer to him), and he would drive in a direction where he can grab a SO-flag, in order to not be defenseless.
joevano wrote:Defenseless tanks takes the fun out of the game, and therefore again, make the flag useless and not worth implementing.
First the defenseless doesn't occur long, maybe it would just persist seconds on an balanced no-shot-SO-server, as the player could reach in seconds the next SO-flag.
On the other hand, the game gets more tactical, and "some"/"lots of people" prefer a tactical Bz gamestyle, therefore I wouldn't call it useless. Otherwise you would need to call the tactical CTF gamestyle pointless, too.
One tactical-Art of this gamestyle would be: While you fight an opponent, you should always try VERY hard to move yourself closer and closer to a SO-flag while you fight/dodge/shoot at the opponent.
As players without SO-flags are a (much) more easy target, they would specially need to think more ahead => therefore this gamestyle is additionally more tactical.
Last edited by z[h]ero on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Few Ideas.

Post by joevano » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:18 pm

Defenseless = no fun
Dying with no recourse = no fun

This would be especially true for newer players. They get annihilated enough as it is, now you want them to have to figure out they need to grab an SO flag BEFORE they can do anything. How does that become fun at any time.

The case for this flag is so specialized and contrived, it becomes pointless to discuss anymore.
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