Can we do something about TK... More & More TK each day

[Skeeve]

Hi!

Today was the worst TK day ever... Some were simply plain stupid noobs who didn't read what they were told, some were simply plain stupid guys on a rage, cursing in foreign (German) languge etc.

I thought it might be a good idea to double the respawn times of TKs each time they TK. Each minute they don't TK, 1 second is substracted

example. Default (minimum) respawn for TK is 10 seconds
1. TK: 10 seconds -> 20 will be next
2. TK: after 5 minutes gives 15 seconds -> next will be 30
3. TK: 25 minutes gives the default 10 seconds -> next will again be 20

So an on-purpose TK is effectivly "deactivated" after some TKs.

And so is a stupid noob

[Teppic]

But what happenes to an innocent player that accidentaly tk's a team with Geno, we've all done it.

[Skeeve]

But what happenes to an innocent player that accidentaly tk's a team with Geno, we've all done it.

I'd count that as one TK.

[Goodbye2U]

But what happenes to an innocent player that accidentaly tk's a team with Geno, we've all done it.

how true, how true. You might count it as one TK, Skeeve, but BZFlag counts it as -1 per teammate (and yourself, if TK death isn't turned on or you managed to hit yourself with it).

so if this is going to happen, it would probably be by plugin.
but the plugin would have to alter BZFlag's scoring system in some way.

[Sky King]

I agree VERY strongly that TK is a problem, and is becomeing a much bigger problem of late. This is something I've given a lot of thought, and have posted some ideas on other threads.

Here's some detailed thoughts I have on TK:

Why it happens:

• + Newbies that just don't know
  + Forgot my color (was blue all day, but I just came back on as red, for instance)
  + Trying to kill an enemy but there was inadvertent consequence or ricochet
  + Too urgent to care (ie, trying to kill a flag carrier at the last moment, or kill a geno, and it's too late to care any more if I kill a teammate)
  + Sloppy or panicky play, like spraying down your own fort to kill an infiltrated CL
  + Intentional kill of a teammate who is running off with your team flag, intentional or not
  + Cheating

OK, so with that a a backdrop, what do we do about TKs that:

• + Gives people the benefit of the doubt, at first
  + Does not harshly punish the occasional TK
  + Harshly punishes frequent TKs

Here's what I propose:

First TK: You get killed; You get a pop up on the screen, right in the middle of the HUD: "You just killed a teammate (a tank of your same color); This is called 'Team Killing' or TKing and this is forbidden in BZFlag. If you understand and wish to continue playing, press 1; otherwise, for help on teams and rules, press any other key". This takes care of Newbies.

Second TK: You get killed, and you get another pop-up. "You have been warned about team killing. Press 1 to return to the game in 10 seconds, otherwise press any key to exit."

From then on, there is some formula for frequency and ratio... For instance, if you have any more than 2 TKs per 15 enemy kills, or more than 2 TKs in the last 5 minutes, you are kicked.

There could be other warnings... for instance, if you have TKed in the last minute, or your TK ratio is ever more than 1 TK per 10 enemy kills, then your TK number flashes on yours and other's displays.

Comments? What I want is a TK warning that helps newbies learn, a system that is forgiving to the occasional or needed TK, and really becomes harsh for people that are just being sloppy or mean.

And btw... I try REALLY hard not to TK, and I think I do much better than most... I probably average one TK per 50 enemy kills, and I am a very aggressive player; most players in boxy, even experienced ones, seem to range from a ratio of 1 per 6 to a ratio of about 1 per 15. If you can't do better than that, or don't want to try, then go to an FFA map as a rogue for a while until your skills improve. I have played 2 rounds in boxy just this past week where I broke 100 kills and 5 caps without killing a single teammate.

[Skeeve]

I like your ideas, Sky King, except for the kill ratio. No wonder as my score is always below Zero So I made the propsal for the time played since last TK. If you're unable to kill anyone like I am, and I think most newbies are, you are not punished too hard if you play several minutes without TKing.

What Ilike most about your concept is the "active warning", i.e. the player has to read and react with a keypress. Best would be to use different keys each time. Or even whole words or sentences the more frequent it happens like "I am a dumbass" after the 10th TK No... just kidding...

@Goodbye2U: You don't necessarily have to connect my proposal to the scoring system. Just count the times you were killed for TKing. But to be honest: I haven't looked into the code yet.

[joevano]

There already is a TK Ratio setting... the warnings aren't there, but the ratio is if the server owner configures it. This problem really just requires vigilant admins and the ratio set, nothing new is really needed.

[Sky King]

Just to clarify my earlier post...

I think that on second and all subsequent TKs, you should get the on-screen warning that requires a positive response and a delay to return.

There are some (rare) cases where a TK is justified, and they do often happen accidently, so a short dealy is in order. I think if someone is swiping your team flag, or there's an enemy that has infitrated your base, then TKs are almost unavoidable... so I would keep the delay short, like 10-20 seconds.

This makes one a little more careful about TKing, but doesn't punish you harshly if it does happen, as long as it is appropriately rare.

In summary:

First TK: A warning and an offer to help newbies
A few TKs: A warning and a brief delay to respawn
Several TKs, but over a long period: A warning and a brief delay to respawn
Several TKs in rapid succession: A ban

[Sky King]

Also, two more thoughts...

• 1. what if, for 20 seconds after an occasional TK, or anytime your TKs are more than, say, 1 TK per 10 enemy kills, next to your name on the player list, all players see a blinking, embarrassing "<<< I just killed one of my teammates" or "<<< I kill teammates", accordingly. I think that you can appeal to people's sense of pride and shame to get them to take TKing more seriously.
  
  2. When you TK, you are actually killing 2 tanks... this is the real "crime" of TKing, is that if you're on a 10-tank team and you TK, you haven't reduced the size of your fighting force by 10%, you've reduced it by 20%, as both you and the tank you TKed die.
  
  But TKing only affects your score by -1, as your deaths go up by one. What should happen is, either your deaths go up by 2, or they go up by +1, and your kills go down -1. A lot (most) of the people playing CTFs like Boxy are actually playing "allied FFA" and the only way to really influence their behavior is to affect their score.

[Winny]

What about those players that, insted of teamkilling themselves, run into teammates shots?

This would be a major roadblock for what you are proposing...

[loophole]

There already is a TK Ratio setting... the warnings aren't there, but the ratio is if the server owner configures it. This problem really just requires vigilant admins and the ratio set, nothing new is really needed.

exactly. I always thought that autokicks/bans should be announced on the public channel instead of happening silently. Then others players would know that trouble makers were being dealt with and not signing off on their own.

also remember you can usually run a poll.
/poll ban "callsign of offending player" (it is pointless to /poll kick)
then other players have to /vote yes

[Spazzy McGee]

whoa, please no. /poll ban is the bane of my life. People seriously over abuse it. I was admining around at boxywar today, and people start /poll bans all over the place, even if the TKer simply had two bad shots. And people don't think about what they are voting for either. they just vote yes, and the poller inevitably spams "Vote Yes" over and over.

People need to learn to talk to the TKer, and tell them what they are doing wrong. Often it's just a newbie that dosn't know any better or simply a guy having a bad day and getting a few misfortunate shots. Communication is the key

I think that on second and all subsequent TKs, you should get the on-screen warning that requires a positive response and a delay to return.

this is exactly what needs to happen. You should be automatically warned in a n00b-freindly way. i.e:
"You have killed a team-mate. Only kill tanks that are not the same color as yours! Susequent or deliberate team-kills could result in being removed from the server. Press return to continue"
or something like that. You should have to be required to respond to that before being allowed to spawn again by pressing 'i'. that way there a two different key presses before spawning.

i feel this would get the point across.

[L4m3r]

Personally, I think the "Don't kill teammates!" and the donkey noise (and later the TK-kick) are enough. Anyone who doesn't catch that isn't going to comprehend any other measures.

Human admins are the answer to all your problems.

[Sky King]

Personally, I think the "Don't kill teammates!" and the donkey noise (and later the TK-kick) are enough. Anyone who doesn't catch that isn't going to comprehend any other measures.

I don't know... I find that in the heat of battle, I don't spend as much time reading the messages at the top of the screen as I ought to.

My concern is that a newbie might not even know what a team is or what CTF is, and that warning may not be enough. And for the intentional TKer, they just don't care, as long as they can instantly respawn, there's no dis-incentive.

An aggressive TKer can spawn, TK, and respawn many times per minute, and could stack up 15 or 20 TKs in the 60 seconds before people realize what's happening and take action.

A positive keystroke response, plus delay, means that a TKer could get in maybe 5 or 6 TKs in the minute or so it takes people to catch on. Sitting out 10 or 15 seconds because I accidently TKed is a drop in the bucket, a tiny price to pay for some TK protection... But it is a HUGE price to pay if I'm an intentional TKer. With delays, 5 minutes of TKing would mean sitting around for 4.9 minutes listening to grass grow, and actually TKing about .1 minutes, and that would get boring in a big hurry.

[joevano]

I don't know... I find that in the heat of battle, I don't spend as much time reading the messages at the top of the screen as I ought to.

My concern is that a newbie might not even know what a team is or what CTF is, and that warning may not be enough. And for the intentional TKer, they just don't care, as long as they can instantly respawn, there's no dis-incentive.

An aggressive TKer can spawn, TK, and respawn many times per minute, and could stack up 15 or 20 TKs in the 60 seconds before people realize what's happening and take action.

A positive keystroke response, plus delay, means that a TKer could get in maybe 5 or 6 TKs in the minute or so it takes people to catch on. Sitting out 10 or 15 seconds because I accidently TKed is a drop in the bucket, a tiny price to pay for some TK protection... But it is a HUGE price to pay if I'm an intentional TKer. With delays, 5 minutes of TKing would mean sitting around for 4.9 minutes listening to grass grow, and actually TKing about .1 minutes, and that would get boring in a big hurry.

Did you listen to what I said. The TK % is in the code, the server owner just needs to turn it on. They go over the TK % they are gone. We used to have TKing problems at LaserMania until we implimented it, and then the problem went away. There is no need for some complicated system. This is a simple game with simple solutions, period.

[Sky King]

The TK % is in the code, the server owner just needs to turn it on. They go over the TK % they are gone. We used to have TKing problems at LaserMania until we implimented it, and then the problem went away.

Yes, I did listen, but...

Boxy is not lasermania. Very different dynamics, very different player population... Boxy is a skirmishing urban terrain war, where accidental TKs are very frequent. In fact, tricking your opponents into TKing is part of the game at Boxy. Lasermania is sniping, where TKs are very rare... No geno in Lasermania, and one TK with geno will probably get you booted, so many servers with geno don't use the ratio. Fewer newbies too at LaserMania, it's just too hard a game to master until you have a little playing time. It's simply not the same game, not really even similar.

And, the lasermania approach does nothing to promote awareness with newer, inexperienced players.

What I am proposing, again, is a different approach to TK management than just the "too high a ratio and you're gone" approach. I am proposing something that:

-Educates the newer user;
-Provides a small price for the accidental TK, as I DON'T want to discourage people from being aggressive and taking chances;
-Discourages people from even bothering to try intentional TKing by making it too boring

My point is that we could have an approach that is friendlier than LaserMania about accidental TKs and newbies, and still holds the line on intentional TKs.

Did you listen to what I said. ... There is no need for some complicated system. This is a simple game with simple solutions, period.

I am a bit puzzled by your tone here; You clearly sound a bit miffed by my posts on this topic. The very point of an enhancements forum is to encourage discussion about what people might like to see in future releases. Suggesting that anything better than the current solution is too complicated is antithetical to this forum.

[joevano]

Lasermania is sniping, where TKs are very rare...

Obviously you didn't play at Lasermania before we implimented the TK %'s

You are proposing a change to the client to accommodate a problem at one map. Boxy War is a TKers paradise (if it is a huge problem elsewhere I would love to know where). Heck I even TK there (never intentionally, of course), the issue is a combination of noobs and map design. If the TK % were implemented there the problem would lessen, but not go away. I would disagree that it does nothing to promote awareness with newer inexperienced players. Lasermania always had noobs on it, and they got the message very quickly when they got kicked and the problems stopped. I am a high ranking admin out there and I am very aware of the good it did. The thing with BZFlag is that it operates on the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) [not directed at anyone in particular that is just the name of the principle], adding pop-ups and delays is not really keeping it simple. The simple thing is to implement the TK %'s that are already there and then policing the server with good admins. I also am not saying that Boxy War doesn't have good admins (it does, heck I am one) but that has solved the problem on every one of the servers I have ever seen a TKing problem on, and it required no modification to the client. And as for educating noobs, it only takes a private message or two from an experienced player to fill them in. A private message is much more personable and heck you might even end up meeting someone you will play with all the time. That is how I stumbled into all of my Admin positions

[TD-Linux]

BoxyWar on BZFX is not a good example because the TK ratio is not set up properly.

I think what we need is the first time BZFlag is set up, it should provide a special menu: First, set your graphical settings (BZFlag often defaults to the lowest settings), then read a highly condensed version of the rules.

The majority of the problematic TK'ers are NOT n00bs. They are generally people terribly bored and people that like the hippo sound.

Easily fixed by a few human admins on, or a good TK ratio. At least half of them leave by their own will when someone mentions SOMEBODY IS TK-ING! [admin's name] BAN HIM, PPLLLEEAAASSEEE!!!!!1111111one

[Teppic]

Write a plugin that makes people apologise before they can respawn, or do other bad things to their tank etc.

[Sky King]

Obviously you didn't play at Lasermania before we implimented the TK %'s

You are proposing a change to the client to accommodate a problem at one map. Boxy War is a TKers paradise (if it is a huge problem elsewhere I would love to know where).

Good point, I'm not sure how much it occurs elsewhere, I'm a "mostly boxy/lasermania" guy... there's some other maps that I love but are not as popular.

Just for the record Donny, I'm not tryng to be pugilisitc... I agree in principle that implemeting ratios is a great way to curb the problem.

I guess my thinking is that setting it aggressively enough to discourage intentional TKers is too rough on newbies or justified TKers; Setting low enough allows too much nonsense. And on Boxy, I find there is an admin there only about 50% of the time at best.

I think you and I have a different view about what constitutes "complicating" the client, and about the nature of open source development.

I am generally opposed to things that complicate the user experience. Much of the beauty of the game is the simplicity, which I believe is maybe already over-extended. But things that require a little extra programming elegance to create a more robust, complete solution? And they don't add any extra complexity/learning curve for the user? I'm all for that, and that's what I'm suggesting here.

I DON'T see enhancement forums as a place to post problems or bugs... I'm not saying there's something wrong with the way things are now... What I DO see enhancement forums as, is the development team saying "hey guys, think out loud, brainstorm, think about, and discuss what the "prefect solution" should look like in version 3 or 4 of BZ."

I'd be willing to bet that the changes I'm proposing would add "a weekend of coding and testing" in terms of complexity. And unlike commercial development, where there's a conservation/simplicity bias, the opposite is often true in open source. Open source programmers are volunteers, and are typically motivated by a desire to create something elegant, robust, complete... There's no financial motivation, they tackle a project solely because they see something discussed in enhancements, and they think to themselves... "Hey, I can see that, that would be more robust than what we have now, I think I'll take that on."

That's all I'm suggesting is that in future versions, if someone wants to take on a little more robust approach to TK management, here's some pretty well discussed and refined thoughts on what that might look like.


Off topic PS... There are some admins at Boxy that I love... the owner, meteorite, is very aggressive about keeping both sides pretty much stocked with all the flags they need; And there are several, High Karate Kitty is probably my fave, that seem to take the admin role so seriously it's like a job... Slow to over-react, and always willing to hop out to observer mode and chat with you if you see something that doesn't look right, and always hears you out.

[joevano]

Off topic PS... There are some admins at Boxy that I love... the owner, meteorite, is very aggressive about keeping both sides pretty much stocked with all the flags they need; And there are several, High Karate Kitty is probably my fave, that seem to take the admin role so seriously it's like a job... Slow to over-react, and always willing to hop out to observer mode and chat with you if you see something that doesn't look right, and always hears you out.

All of your previous post, was very good... but I would like to point out the PS to all of the Admins and Admin "wanna-be"s. That is a great observation that a good many admins would do well to imitate. Being an admin IS a job and does require a good bit of maturity. It is not a power trip that many admins tend to take it for (YOUR DEAD, comes to mind but there are many others). Admins have a resposibility to apply the servers rules fairly and be equal with everyone.