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Survey: Kill-All-Rogues flag request

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:42 am
by Dr. Tyrell
Anyone who wants such a flag please reply.

Thanks all,
Dr. Tyrell

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:00 am
by rr
No, that would essentially make the rouges a team.

I would however like a flag to make ST much less powerful as there is nothing to counter act it.

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:48 am
by Dervish
rr said it best.

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:32 pm
by Grumbler
i say why not, if you have a separate geno flag, a rogue geno is not that far fetched. would it make them a team?, for an instant when someone else has that flag. As will all flags, it should be server configurable.

When you look at genocide, it really is a cheap flag in itself. This is especially true on the FFA servers. For 90% of time, genocide undermines team play. I am sure it was originally put in to counter-act a single team from dominating a board, but, in practice, players join as a team until the first few genocide kills, then they re-join as rogue. The rogue gets a few cheap points, until the team is disbanded and then genocide flag is forgotten.

IMHO, this promotes some of the negative individualistic attitudes present in bzflag. It was one of the reasons I started to play more CTF, like xmission.(avoiding the two shot, no jump, whinning servers).

Maybe the question should be, "Do you think we should eliminate the Genocide flag?" I would have to say yes to that as well.

oh well, thats IMHO

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:13 pm
by Legolas
Hmm,Iv'e heard this question before on spirals and I say no.

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:13 pm
by ski
I say go for it! heh Id like nothing better than have essentially a Geno flag for rogues. I dont think it would make them more of a team because they will still kill each other... just my 0.02

hey why not?

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:56 am
by swine
I play rogue all the time and I die lots...One more flag isnt going to make that much of a difference. It would definetly shake things up. And I think more people would go back to playing teams again. Except me of course being a mal-adjusted socially inept deviant farm animal.

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:04 pm
by widowmaker
I would say no because as a rogue, which I like to play as quite often, you chose to be seperate from everyone on the playing field. If you are affected by a geno type flag, as rr put it so well, rogues would be a team. I play as a rogue so that I can destroy everyone :twisted: and so I am not affected by the geno flag.

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:00 pm
by Spaceman Spiff
Wellllll... I'll say it again... two of the obvious purposes of being rogues are #1 to be able to kill everyone without restriction and #2 to be un-affected by geno.

Making a "rogue geno" would be really unfair to the rogues. This simply means that they might as well be on a team.. but they can be killed by their "teammates" as well. Besides... what's to keep someone from signing on rogue and killing himself and getting like ten points from all of the other rogues that die?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:19 am
by SGI
Yes ...Good point Spiff

Balance of flag power

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:09 pm
by bryjen
I think Spiff has brushed on a good reason a simple kill-all-rogues flag may not be the way to go.

A teamed player genociding themself kills teammates and loses points. Holding genocide also requires teamed players to be more careful with their shots to avoid hitting teammates. If a rogue grabs that kill-all-rogues flag, there's little down-side for them. If there are no other rogues, the flag is useless. With one other, the flag-holder shooting themself or the other gets them -1 for killing themself and +1 for killing the other ( -1 + +1 = 0). And when there are two or more others, the flag-holder could gain points just by shooting themself.

A good question to ask may be "does genocide have a place in configs that allow rogues?". In team-only configs, the above reasons balance the genocide flag. Since those restrictions don't apply to rogues, is it too powerful a weapon for them? If so, configs that allow rogues can specify to not have the genocide flag available.

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:58 pm
by widowmaker
bryjen, I think that rogue enabled games should have geno flags because if there are 2-3 people on each team and a few other rogues it is hard to stay alive considering there are some 13 people against you. Whenever I grab the flag as a rogue I do the best I can with it but I still usually die fairly quicky because of the number of people on the server. Thats just my viewpoint on it.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:34 pm
by Grumbler
From the above points, I think I will now recommend that server owners running my maps remove geno if they are going to include rogue tanks. I do not agree with Spiff's point that this would make the rogues a team. It would just be another flag with advantages and some disadvantages.

I find it interesting that many of the people who do not think that it should be a flag play a lot of rogue. <sniff> <sniff> , smells like they fear losing their ability to get cheap points with no reprisals.


Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:26 pm
by The Red Baron
Come ya cheap players.

Suck it up and kill each other. The only true reason you want a kill-all-rouges. Is because I am So good that you will only be able to kill me with such a flag.

*all above was in jest*

Rouges were created to avoid geno. And yes, sometimes i feel slightly guilty using geno. you get mega points for so little work. Personally, I believe such discussion started because player A, none rouge (fictional) is battling player B, Rouge (fictional) Player B is camping with GM (noble Cause), Player A cannot kill PLayer B. Is not quite good enough. So he thinks, "man I could kill him easily if we had a rouge geno." (nothing wrong with thought process of player B)

I only draw that conclusion because I have thought like that before.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:50 pm
by Spaceman Spiff
Methinks Koba doesn't have much experience playing as a rogue. :P

If rogues can be killed by a "geno" flag... they are the same thing as a team... but they are allowed to kill eachother as well. This is really a very flawed idea.

I don't play as much FFA as I used to, but when I did I rarely played anything but rogue. A good deal of my reason for playing as a rogue was that I hated genocide. There is nothing more annoying than searching and searching for a good flag, finding it only to be killed because one of your less experienced teammates gets destroyed by someone with a geno flag. Making a geno for rogues means that rogues are a "team." And I will say it again- this could easily be exploited negatively. If there were 15 rogues on a server, I would simply get this flag and shoot myself.. and gain 14 points. The fact is.. only people of the same color/team can be killed by genocide. Rogues can kill anyone they please, therefore they are not a team and can't be treated as such.

I would venture to say that this suggestion came from a newbie who spent a lot of time on hashmark (where rogues ran rampant) and got tired of rogue campers. Well.. the fact is... most of the better players play as rogue.... so stop trying to make your odds of living better by lessening the enjoyment of the game. :P

Why not just incorporate a "nuke" like the old BZFlag Xtreme had? Chances are this would make you happier anyway. ;)

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:32 pm
by Grumbler
sry spiff. I just do not get your point on why this makes rogues a team. They are rogues, they want to kill each other, so be it. Should it turn out to be a big problem, we code it so only teams could use the flag. This is on par for how Genocide works.

it would be a flag just like any other flag. yes, you would hate it because your individual skills would not impact your ability to live or die, and as such, your overall score would be impacted for 3-4 deaths. Big Deal. It would be become just another facet of the game you would have to learn to adapt to. Unless you are unable to adapt...???

That is my take on things and if you(and others with the same opinion) start a server, you/they could disable that flag. I do believe it is a valid flag option alongside Genocide. If you remove Genocide, then obviously it is not a valid flag option.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:41 pm
by widowmaker
Koba one of the reasons people play as a rogue is so that they aren't affected by genocide. If you are on a team you take that risk but on a team (if played correctly) you are protected by your teammates when possible. I really don't want a Kill all rogues flag, it takes away from being a rogue.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:43 pm
by The Red Baron
*resorts to his only personal solution*

*hopes in tank and attacks koba with IB*

*then moves on to more serious mindset.*

"Now this is for propieties sake, so please be honest.
Tell me, How do you feel?"


fact of the matter, it does not turn rouges into a team. However, with geno, you treat them as a team, and they die as a team. Dangerous thing is, they will band as a team to attack and kill the offending flag bearer. However, this flag defeats one of the major purposes in playing as a rouge. the avoidance of geno.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:01 pm
by Spaceman Spiff
I don't mean it literally makes them a team. Don't you get it??? Let me spell it out...

Making a "rogue geno" makes rogues a sort of "team".. they key words being "sort of." The reason an entire team can die with genocide is because they are a team. They try to support eachother and stuff (if they play as a team). Players play as rogues because they don't want to be on a team. This might be because they want more targets, this might be because they don't play well on a team, and this might be because they hate genocide. There are many reasons. But the fact is, since they don't play as a team (with teamwork and all) they should not die as a team. If that's the case.. then I think there should be a "team nuke" that only rogues can pick up... that kills every player on every team when one is shot. That would be just as fair as a "rogue genocide" flag.

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:24 pm
by Grumbler
sry spiff, i still dont buy your argument. You have indicated that this flag would make rogues "sort of" a team. Well sure.
That would be this flag's advantage. Its not all the time though and just because the rogues would find it annoying is really not reasoning against this flag. It would add an extra dimension to rogue play. Its an interesting concept. I would like to see it get played out.

The server owners are the ones that really have control over whether a flag gets played or not, so they are ones that really would have to make the decision on whether to play the flag. The rogues who do not like the flag, can go elsewhere. Just like the people who didnt like dealing with the GMs on turkey could go elsewhere.

Maybe the common ground here is either removal of Genocide flag or increasing the advantage of Team play......because lets face it, in an active FFA server, there is no time to type to your teammates.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:19 am
by creeperz
the only reason for really being a rouge if you think about it

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:13 am
by Terminator
But Grumbler making a rouger geno flag, that only teams can pick up, brings up a whole 'nother argument. Because teams can use geno agaisnt other teams, but rouges couldn't use rouger geno against other rouges.

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:35 am
by your dog
I never play rogue, but I have to aggree with spiff. I see how it would take away from being a rouge. Sorry Grumbler :(

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:02 pm
by Fiberchunks
uh, gents. This post was last posted to in September of '03 -- talk about bringing the dead back to life ;)


Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:20 pm
by Terminator
Lol, well Fiber I don't pay attention to dates, just topics with new posts, and there was a new psot.