MissleWar in a 3rd Version!

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Zelgadis
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MissleWar in a 3rd Version!

Post by Zelgadis » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:03 am

Im proud to post this topic today, and tell you all that a better MissleWar is up on in-league.bzflag.eu:5154

Thanks to DW!!! who made this beatiful map :D

Now we dont need to do /flagreset anymore :P

have fun with new Version of MissleWar.

For more Informations ask Ducatiwannabe aka DW :P
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Post by Grace F » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:02 pm

SWEEEEEEEET :D lol
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Post by TankSnipe » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:31 am

i look foward to playing and cool!!

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Post by Davy Jones » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:01 am

I played it already, I like the transparent pyramids, although it allows for almost invincible super bullet camping, also the boxes on top of the base are some good GM camping spots!
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Post by whispershadow » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:16 am

i was just there and I couldn't see anything new, what am i missing
I am officially a figment of everyone's imagination.

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Post by Grace F » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:12 am

whispershadow wrote:i was just there and I couldn't see anything new, what am i missing
Did you try to drive in the pyramids? There are also blocks behind the base in mid air.

I saw those improvements in the Australian Version of MissleWars and its really handy :)

whispershadow - If you actually cant see any of these improvements then somethings wrong :?
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Post by Zelgadis » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:02 pm

there are also new flag types, 2 i think :D

DW, post the names of the flag types here :P
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Post by meeba » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 pm

The flags you can find are: Agility, Guided Missile, Laser, Shock Wave, Wings, Stealth, Cloaking, Masquerade, Seer, Thief, Burrow, Machine Gun, Genocide, Oscillation Overthruster, Super Bullet, and, of course, the team flags.

Did I miss any?

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Post by ducktape » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:25 pm

AWESOME I cant wait.
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Ugh...

Post by jinx » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:47 pm

Well, I have to voice a different opinion about the changes. To me, it seems the changes will just further increase the camping already happening on the map.

Before the doors were covered, at least there was some CTF'ing going on regularly. Yes, there was laser camping from across the map whenever a team was capped.

The doors were covered, and the laser camping started happening all the time. Most of the people who just want a high score just shoot at a wall, ricochet the laser shot around the map as much as possible, and HOPE to hit someone. Not a lot of skill involved there.

With these latest changes, besides the laser camping from behind the protected doorways go, some will camp in the pyramids in front of the bases. And now some will camp with GMs on the back platforms. Yes, you can laser them from the other bases, but it's fairly easy to grab another GM and hop up there.

Much like the SB and GENO flags have shot limits - the lasers need to be shot limited also, and/or slowed so only 3 shots every 10 seconds. I know a lot of players don't share my feelings about this. But if the object is a CTF map, then I think the changes are not helping.
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Post by Grace F » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:40 pm

jinx
I agree with you, maybe perhaps this map shouldnt be a CTF. Rather a TEAM FFA.

Either way, there are those who try hard to cap another teams flags but are stopped dead in their tracks by all sorts of campers.
jinx wrote:Much like the SB and GENO flags have shot limits - the lasers need to be shot limited also, and/or slowed so only 3 shots every 10 seconds.
Your right, the few times i've played there (I get lag kicked :() Everytime i went to capture the other teams flag i'd get barraged by base laser campers.

BUT, i do also like it the way it is, with the new improvements. :)
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Re: Ugh...

Post by macsforme » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:20 am

jinx wrote:Before the doors were covered, at least there was some CTF'ing going on regularly. Yes, there was laser camping from across the map whenever a team was capped.
True, although in my experience CTF play is still a big part of playing there. You just have to talk to your team and make a team effort to steal a flag. I doubt it can be done with less than two or three players heading over there. It's a good exercise in team play.

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Re: Ugh...

Post by meeba » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:39 am

Constitution wrote:
jinx wrote:Before the doors were covered, at least there was some CTF'ing going on regularly. Yes, there was laser camping from across the map whenever a team was capped.
True, although in my experience CTF play is still a big part of playing there. You just have to talk to your team and make a team effort to steal a flag. I doubt it can be done with less than two or three players heading over there. It's a good exercise in team play.
There is hardly any more CTF there.

The pyramids should be shootthrough AND drivethrough. Just drive through is not fair.

Also, the white boxes that are drivethrough from inside the base, but not outside, need to be taken out. I hate those. Plus, they make camping VERY easy.

If nobody minds, I'll make another version of MW that tries to feature LESS camping. Suggestions welcome.

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Re: Ugh...

Post by Grace F » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:46 am

TangenT wrote:The pyramids should be shootthrough AND drivethrough. Just drive through is not fair.
Then what is the point in the pyramids?
TangenT wrote:Also, the white boxes that are drivethrough from inside the base, but not outside, need to be taken out. I hate those. Plus, they make camping VERY easy.
The white boxes? You mean the doors? They were made 1 way to stop lasers from entering the bases and spawn killing everyone.

TangenT wrote:If nobody minds, I'll make another version of MW that tries to feature LESS camping. Suggestions welcome.
I dont mind, but dont you need someone permission first? :? Anywayz, MissleWars is an awesome map in my opinion. If you did alter it to stop so much camping, that would also be great! :)
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Re: Ugh...

Post by meeba » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:51 am

Grace F wrote:Then what is the point in the pyramids?
Look pretty. :)

Alternatively, make them completely solid.
Grace F wrote:The white boxes? You mean the doors? They were made 1 way to stop lasers from entering the bases and spawn killing everyone.
Maybe so, but if you move those barriers between bases inside just a LITTLE bit, then you can't shoot across.

Grace F wrote:I dont mind, but dont you need someone permission first? :? Anywayz, MissleWars is an awesome map in my opinion. If you did alter it to stop so much camping, that would also be great! :)
Well, DW posted the map up for all of us to use on our servers, so I assume he doesn't mind me modifying it, so long as I give him the credit still.

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Re: Ugh...

Post by Grace F » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:11 am

TangenT wrote:
Grace F wrote:Then what is the point in the pyramids?
Look pretty. :) Alternatively, make them completely solid.


lol :P and yea i suppose they could be changed back to being solid.
TangenT wrote:
Grace F wrote: The white boxes? You mean the doors? They were made 1 way to stop lasers from entering the bases and spawn killing everyone.


Maybe so, but if you move those barriers between bases inside just a LITTLE bit, then you can't shoot across.

Yea but you forgetting rico's. Unless you change L so it doesnt rico. That could be a way.
TangenT wrote:
Grace F wrote: I dont mind, but dont you need someone permission first? Anywayz, MissleWars is an awesome map in my opinion. If you did alter it to stop so much camping, that would also be great!
Well, DW posted the map up for all of us to use on our servers, so I assume he doesn't mind me modifying it, so long as I give him the credit still.
I see. Well anywayz, hope to see your modified version soon :)
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Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:08 pm

Hey all! Sorry I've been slow posting here.

Additions were platforms above bases, to hide flags, or hide tanks :) along with the pyramid change, and the masquerade and seer flags (not many of these).

I have been hearing lots of people's views on capturing and too much camping - especially with the laser flag. Let me tell you what my idea was when I first made MissileWar. I wanted a FFA style with CTF as a side style. Meaning, you could go around playing FFA, or, if you worked as a team and really wanted to, you could CTF. Kind of a CTA or a FTF. :D something like that.

I was hoping the new pyramids would add cover to those trying to capture flags. They rush out doors and jump or drive to a pyramid, which provides cover on the halfway point of the field, save from super bullet. However, I also took in to consideration that there would be super bullet campers (and others) now. So, I had the same amount of super bullet, stealth, and shock wave flags in each base. I figured that if you couldn't find a super bullet to shoot back, or a stealth to sneak up, or a shock wave to jump them, then perhaps you could find a burrow or wings or something. Most likely you would be able to find the flag you need.

I also realize the walls that were added in the previous version were not popular among some of you. I had to add these due to complaints about not being able to *spawn* because of campers who just ricoed in to a base.

If you use teamwork on this map you can still capture the flag. You just have to use good teamwork. If you would like I could try increasing the spawn time, so if you shoot somebody, you have time to try to run away before they spawn again in your face. Or, I could place shot limits on almost every flag, except that would make many people unhappy. Any other comments or suggestions?
Last edited by ducatiwannabe on Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:09 pm

Well, DW posted the map up for all of us to use on our servers, so I assume he doesn't mind me modifying it, so long as I give him the credit still.
Just saw this, I appreciate you considering that, TangenT.

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Post by Triumph of the Soul » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:18 pm

DW

I like your map and most of the ideas behind it, but...
...I'm afraid I disagree with you on the principles of a map with a FFA>CTF style game play.

Since the server does not add joining players to teams based on skill or rank such as to be found at my.bzflag.org or any other recordable stat, it is inevitable that teams will become internally lopsided (ex: One red has a score of 40 and the rest of the reds have a score of -40). This destroys the teamwork a team can demonstrate to an extent. This is perfectly fine in straight FFA games, but can lead to problems in FFA/CTF games, especially ones with more than two teams. Let's say your all-star on red team is cruising around the map, blowing up enemies, and suddenly he sees the team Flag Alert. Five blues have organized a concerted effort to capture the Red Team Flag. Now, it doesn't matter how good he is if his teammates aren't up to snuff. The all-star red can fight to the death to save his flag but it won't make a difference because it's 5 blues to 1 red.

In my experience at FFA/CTF games, I have seen team efforts of capturing the team flags as a desperate attack on individual strong players with weaker teammates. And this is an especially big problem in games with more than two teams like Missile War, where two teams can gang up on one easily, and sometimes accidentally. I think this is bad for the game play as it can frustrate lone strong players with teammates who might not care if their flag gets captured.

In my opinion, Missile War should choose one of two paths:

1. Make the map a straight FFA style game. Get rid of team flags. Put more emphasis on regulating the other flags in the game. Get rid of the walls at the base entrances. Solidify the pyramids. Enlarge the spawn zones to outside of the bases.

2. Make the map a straight CTF style game. Seriously limit or completely get rid of super flags. Keep the walls at the base entrances. Keep the drive-through but not shoot-through pyramids.

You say, DW, that you intended Missile War to be an FFA map with CTF on the side. However, as time has passed, and changes have been made to the map, I'd say it's becoming more CTF oriented. Even if it's still hard to CTF. Personally, I am mostly indifferent towards either playing style, but I think they should be separated as much as possible.
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Post by jinx » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:17 pm

ducatiwannabe wrote:
[snip]

I also realize the walls that were added in the previous version were not popular among some of you. I had to add these due to complaints about not being able to *spawn* because of campers who just ricoed in to a base.
I agree the door walls were needed to stop the laser campers from spawncamping other bases, but this change just lead to them being able to sit at camp and constantly rico laser shots across the whole map. For some players all they do is go through flags in base until they find a laser flag, sit at the doorway, and shoot at walls. Again - no skill involved - they just *hope* to hit something.

Sorry to say, that's turned the map in to a campfest.

One possible way to correct that would be to make the walls so that you can drive through them, but not shoot through them. This would force laser campers to either sit up on the ledge, or get outside the base to shoot at ground level.
ducatiwannabe wrote: If you use teamwork on this map you can still capture the flag. You just have to use good teamwork. If you would like I could try increasing the spawn time, so if you shoot somebody, you have time to try to run away before they spawn again in your face. Or, I could place shot limits on almost every flag, except that would make many people unhappy. Any other comments or suggestions?
First, I just applaud you for making the map - it has been a fun map to play. However, since the third upgrade I've noted a lot less flag captures. I used to be able to cap a flag fairly easily with one or two others who would help, but since the upgrades I think I've only capped a team flag once or twice. Not that that is a great gauge, but I have had my share of flag captures before.

I realize making any changes will effect how people enjoy the map. For me - I'm not interested in sitting in the base and racking up a score by bouncing laser shots constantly. I want to grab another team's flag and have the challenge of getting it from their base to my base, and hopefully getting some teammates helping cover my run.

I'd have to say there is a need for laser flags, but not a need for them to be shot so quickly, or have infinite shots. These restrictions would at least make laser campers choose when they shoot them instead of randomly shooting them. So - shot limits, or a slowdown of how quickly they can be shot.

Anyways, thanks DW for the map, and for sharing your views on how you want the map to improve.
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Post by biggeruniverse » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:44 am

This latest version is moving away from the KISS principle that made this map playable. It's symmetric, it's a well understood idea, and has several useful vantage points without going overboard.

Personally, I saw the new changes and found them all abhorrent. The last version was in my opinion the best, with the one exception that I thought the screen doors should be 1-way drive-through, but not shoot-through at all.

I could probably cope with the new platforms, but the drive-through pyramids are nothing but annoying.

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Post by Grace F » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:07 am

biggeruniverse wrote:The last version was in my opinion the best, with the one exception that I thought the screen doors should be 1-way drive-through, but not shoot-through at all.
i like the bit where you wrote about the doors not being shoot through. I would love to see that done.
biggeruniverse wrote:the drive-through pyramids are nothing but annoying.
They are arent they. Although, it provides good cover from the laser spam.
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Post by ducatiwannabe » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:21 pm

Alright, then, I see the pyramids aren't popular with a lot of people. I'll go ahead and start a poll, and you guys (the players) can decide whether to go to the previous version, make a *new* version, or just a few changes. I'll give you old version, keep, or other as poll options. :)

Vote here!

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Post by meeba » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:26 pm

My vote:

Keep the new platforms.
Make the pyramids solid. (Not drive-through, not shoot-through)
Make the base entrances drive-through from BOTH sides (but just inside is fine), and make it not shoot-through from either side. No more laser camping from there.

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Post by Grace F » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:11 pm

TangenT wrote:Keep the new platforms.
Make the pyramids solid. (Not drive-through, not shoot-through)
Make the base entrances drive-through from BOTH sides (but just inside is fine), and make it not shoot-through from either side. No more laser camping from there.
I vote in favour of TangenTs idea! Although im not too sure about the doors being drive-through from both sides. We'll see what happens though.
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