why genocide on ctf maps?

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llrr
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why genocide on ctf maps?

Post by llrr » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:11 am

i've always wondered...why have geno flags on ctf maps??
if it's ctf, then it is not about the score, and the only thing geno does is make the user get lots of points at once. more and more people now go for geno flags rather than the opposition's team flags, so they could get lots of points, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of ctf?
you could argue that by using geno at the right moment your team could get an advantage to get the other team's flag, but now with most maps having "bases", it is almost impossible to achieve that advantage as they will quickly respawn in their base.
so i'm suggesting that no genocide flags in ctf maps, could anyone commenting please vote whether they favour the suggestion or not.
Thanks

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Post by going nowhere » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:39 am

:D I agree - Missile wars has turned into geno wars. It used to be a good place for new players to learn, but now new players are just geno bait. Then the new player gets slammed by their own team because they could not dodge, or they do not yet understand how geno works. Now some of the admins are really good at geno - and hit the opposing team over and over - just to run up points. Admins used to think that fair play was important - now they just see how fast they can beat up on the weaker team.

- Just my 2 cents

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Post by Shuist » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:02 am

I agree, I think genocide should be used only on ffa or non caping sites such as mofo etc. Going on a bit to going nowhere, they should make a map specially for newbies like, having no genocide, or genocide for a specific area, so when you walk out of it, you automatically drop it.

Shuist 8)

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Post by Bambino » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:29 am

I think (agreeing with everyone) that yes it has become geno wars, and (as Shuist said should be used on FFA maps) I think that sometimes there is a few very geno dominant players out there that only go for geno. and the just "pwn" and leave most players with negative scores (many simply leave).

my two cents

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Post by Grace F » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:13 am

I do believe that geno can become a problem. I've often become to fustrated to continue when my team is dominated by the "Geno Lords".

The discussion that CTF's become "CTG's" (Capture the Geno) whenever a genocide flag is present, comes up more often than not.

llrr wrote:if it's ctf, then it is not about the score, and the only thing geno does is make the user get lots of points at once. more and more people now go for geno flags rather than the opposition's team flags, so they could get lots of points, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of ctf?
I think that some people see all maps the same, whether it be CTF or FFA. (Disregarding Rabbit Hunt as that is something different).
These people will log onto any map and try and get a good score, regardless of the type of game style the map is designed for.

How would removing Geno from say, MissleWars, affect gameplay and the popularity of it?

I doubt any changes will be made to it, but maybe CTF's in the future will think about genocide a little more carefully.
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Post by Zac » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:34 am

geno is a pain i guess. but it can be fun to use :)
however the geno lords do get annoying.

but sometimes the best way to learn is to make mistakes. ie running into a geno player and getting shot.
i have done it before and most people sont mind so long as you admit your mistake.

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:24 pm

Since this topic seems to be particularly directed at MissileWar2... :-P Maybe a 1-shot limit on geno would suit your needs.

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Post by khazhyk » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:01 pm

What I see is that on ctf maps, if you have geno, the CTF dies out,
but if you don't have geno on that map, many people dub it "not fun," although many enjoyable ctf maps don't have geno.

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I'd recommend removing geno, but I'm afraid the players will riot since they can't get their high scores anymore. :|
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Post by red-der » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:52 pm

I really dont like geno on ctf maps, especially if there are a lot of players (=that means at least one or two easyly geno-able player).

On Missle Wars I would prefer - if there has one to be - a time-limited (maybe you loose it after 60 sec), and only one shot geno. That would be acceptable and not that powerfull anymore.

Second thing is, geno is not only good for score, on some maps its important for tactical things; but most player dont play ctf on ctf-maps, they only go for the score.

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:15 am

Genocide plays a key role in weakening the other team temporarily so that your team can cover some ground with their flag. Five shots, with an experience player, can be a menace. Three is annoying, but tolerable. On a big map with extra obstacles, one has to be incredibly careful with bullets. One bullet is probably the best and I'll look in to lowering the shot count to that number for MissileWar2. Here's the thing, make it one shot, timelimit, etc... it majorly weakens a tactic in the game. A low shot limit is fine for genocide and I think it works fine as it is.

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Post by Bambino » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:50 am

I believe that having a time limit with geno would be quite good to have because you have to act fast, as well as your team having to act in order to grab the flag, jumping over a pyramid and 90% dieing in the base. so a time limit and lower shot count would greatly improve the CTF factor of the map or more geno running.

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Post by Zac » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:36 am

maybe just take one shot of the geno so it is limited to 2 shots, that way the geno lords can only get 2 geno kills before the drop. also it means you cant do a three shot spray but you you can still shoot at a tank and then kill them as they land otherwise it is hard to kill anyone.

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Post by going nowhere » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:07 am

If geno stays - 1 shot is all that is needed - the folks that are the problem geno hogs are the best overall players anyway - they hit their target each time - that is the problem.

It is when 2+ geno hogs are on one team - then playing gets boring for everyone else - the same team has nothing to do - and the opposing team just gets hit over and over.

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Post by llrr » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:45 pm

this really isn't directed at missile wars 2...rather ctf overall.
it's just missile wars is such a good example as there are clear bases and genocide is in the middle. Take Overlord for example, geno there would be much more valuable tactical wise and it could really give your team an edge, but it is also a random flag not fixed like in missile wars. The "tactical boost" that comes with geno flags is limited depending on the map, on missile wars it does not affect that much as i already stated that the other team will all respawn very quickly in their base.
I think 2 shot limit or a time limit would be a good idea, preferably time limit, as that makes any geno carriers attack rather than wait for someone to go out and just camp and kill them.

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Post by Bambino » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:24 pm

I think a 3 min. geno timer would be good.

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Post by ducktape » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:53 pm

Honestly, who doesnt like to be a geno hog? who doesnt LOVE to get geno and pwn n00bs non-stop? I don't think its a problem. Everyone can do it. its been that way for awhile. Just start Geno'ing the guy that got you back
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Post by I_Died_Once » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:41 pm

Alright... being the server owner for Planet MoFo, admin on several servers, and huge fan of the game like everyone else notwithstanding, let me get my two cents in.
Admins used to think that fair play was important - now they just see how fast they can beat up on the weaker team.
OK, so according to what you're saying, admins of popular servers should just stand there and give everyone a fair chance to kill you? My arse!

I thought beating up the weaker team is the very essence of fair play! I have every chance those guys have to find the powerful flag (be it geno, GM, L, or SW) and they have every chance I have to shoot back and dodge.

While I think placing geno in a stationary place on a CTF game is a poor game concept, it is a part of the game. Its a double edged sword that can cut you like it cuts them. I say if you have geno, make it be in a random position, else it might ensure a slaughter.

I'm surprised someone hasn't locked this thread with the almighty "Its up to the individual server owner, this is not the place to discuss this, it is not a conversation to be had, your input is not needed, contact the server owner with your issues, we don't discuss the game here on the forums" schpiel.
...This has been a recording.

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How about flag rewards on CTF maps?

Post by peewee » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:51 pm

I wouldn't mind facing the onslaught of Geno in MW2 if I knew I'd be rewarded for passing or capping the flag. Maybe give those people equivalent scores to the geno whores to drive a different incentive.

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:28 pm

People don't seem to understand. When an enemy flag is captured, your entire team *is* rewarded. *points to teamscore in top right of screen*.

That, and it gives you the advantage to grab flags and position yourself and such for when the enemy team spawns again. Don't forget the meaning of CTF.... it's for teamwork.... not personal score. :roll:

I think almost everybody agrees here. On large CTF maps, Genocide should be placed randomly, have low shot limits and/or a timelimit, and balanced as best as possible.

Personally, while it's annoying to get killed because a teammate gets shot, I think it enhances the strategy of the game. How to save your team before you all die. :)

And btw, it is not likely MissileWar2 will change in setup. :-P

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Post by Lee » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:40 pm

Eh, I sort of like geno - Sure, I get hit a ton with it since I suck majorly, but still, it's interesting to see who can manage to get up there without falling (DAMN FALLING DIE!) *Cough* Er, well, I like trying and failing to get up there, but it doesn't go well.

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Post by Zac » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:47 pm

small print is funny ducatiwannabe :D i agree geno is a tactical part of the game, and if people dont treat it like one then that is their choice.

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Post by going nowhere » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:04 am

Well - the fair play part - that is a server - admin specific concept that changes with the server and the admins on it. I would never expect that a server with mofo in the title would EVER go with that, and when I play there I have no expectations of that concept.

Fair play and geno come together when a server has had a reputation of balanced team play with enforcement by admins, and then the admins change it by themselves overplaying the geno - and creating 2 teams that are heavy in one direction. I have seen it happen that three strong players line up for geno - and hammer the other team for hours running up scores. During that time no CTF happens. In the past the strong admin would sit out, or change sides to even up the SKILL level of the teams - not anymore. Score is all that is important now.

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Post by llrr » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:27 am

ok let me give an example: dilidili on missile wars, his score was 700-400, during all that time there was not a single ctf. he almost just dominated the game for most of the day. as i said genocide is supposed to be a tactic, and that if people don't want to use it for tactic that is there choice is also true, but the problem is most people DO NOT use it tactically. Again missile wars is a good example, find one time where geno is actually used for a tactical advantage to cap? Ctf maps with bases are very very hard, everyone respawns back in their base very quickly and that makes geno only for points and not for tactics. People almost always choose geno for points, that's why i thought it would do ctf a lot of good if it is taken out of the game or at least modified. Again this is not directed at missile wars...just it is a good example.

Ducatiwannabe: "Personally, while it's annoying to get killed because a teammate gets shot, I think it enhances the strategy of the game. How to save your team before you all die"

the problem here is that with more than 10 players on each team there are bound to be noobs, or at least people who aren't very good. they are the ones who are targeted with geno. HOW do you save your team?? tk him so he can't be genoed? tell him not to get genoed? The FACT is that telling them are almost useless, coz if they don't care then they don't care. and think about the game you would be playing if you had to put him on hunt and watch him to make sure he isn't genoed. It just takes the whole fun out of your game. Why should one person sacrifice for the whole team?

One point i forgot to mention before was that: if you can geno and rack up points, then you can also kill normally and still rack up points. Normal kills take much more skill. you can see a lot of people genoing because they camp and there would always be people running out at you even though they know they can't hit you. For example again: missile wars in the pyra camp. i guess one of the best things to do would be to not have fixed geno flag spawns, so at least people would need to find it, in this area castle warfare is so much better.

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Post by llrr » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:46 am

ahh i also forgot to mention: i am suggesting a modification of genocide, e.g. time limit etc, or removal of genocide on ctf maps, but it is not so that the map can be more popular. Popularity is not as important as gameplay. By removing geno a few people might not go to that map anymore because all they did before was geno and nothing else, but majority of the people would still go because they are finally relieved the constant team genoes and could actually work together for ctf. Some people will experience a completely different atmosphere and they would find new playing styles on that particular map because geno has been taken out. before they might never have thought of those ways to play.

Personally i can have fun on any map, whether it is popular or not, it really depends on the kind of game that's been played, and i am mostly refering to the classics ctf maps, they are awesome, good players go on and the game is real fun.

oh and...this is directed at missile wars..why is it made so that it is so flag dependent..the shots are so fast it is almost not possible to kill someone unless you have a flag to counter theirs. I thought that to make it so flag dependent is even more because teamwork is needed more than anything else.

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Post by Zac » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:02 am

the problem is llrr is that people would much prefer to get heaps of kills quickly, and would much prefer to getthat with 1 or 2 shots, and you must take into consideration that all the flags people have will benefit towards killing you, therefor i suggest you grab a stealth flag and try to prevent the geno lords from keeping geno long enough to kill anyone, there are plenty of good hiding spots on the field. and if noone goes up the top towards them then they heve to go down. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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