why genocide on ctf maps?

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ducatiwannabe
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Post by ducatiwannabe » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:30 pm

Obviously, players should never teamkill for the "greater good" of their team. Hunting a new player on your own team is up to you, but I wouldn't do it. Don't overcomplicate things. In both team bases there are Super Bullet flags and Shock Wave flags. With some careful planning and teamwork, Genociders can be killed rather easily. And as for one person sacrificing for the team... you guys are a team... why not? :-)

I see what you are saying though. Server owners should deeply consider how they set up Genocide. :-)

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Post by joevano » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:22 pm

Ok, now to really make you think. Would 'Missle War 2' be the map it is/has been without geno or with some sort of balancing factor? I really don't think so. Don't get me wrong, I am a CTFer there all day long, rarely ever using geno and play the map most days. But without the draw of being able to rack up some quick points with geno, the map would die, IMHO. Geno has it's place and a mapmaker using it correctly can make for a very popular map. And before you start arguing that geno doesn't make the map... why was Boxy Wars popular?
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Post by Zac » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:37 pm

i didnt even know that boxy had a geno flag. :shock:
i suppose it is logical.

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Post by Bambino » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:01 pm

If I may add on here laser spamming is also quite cheap, for example my team would be genoed then laser spawn killed spammed. Is there a way to fix it?
And yes i know get cloak.

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Post by ahs3 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:20 pm

I think geno has its place in ctf. However the mapmaker should make it difficult to get. Either by easily shot trying to get it, or a obstacle to overcome. I think the shot limit should be only one.. However a time limit would make it much simpler.

I agree with ducatiwannabe, its purpose is to weaken the opposing team to enable a cap, It should be used as a tool by the team, not a score bumping tool.

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Post by Engineer » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:22 am

I agree that geno is a tactical flag to use. say, the enemy team is with a flag and you with geno, and a n00b is next you (in missile wars can be on the pyramids, which give a advantage kind of "unfair"), you'd save your team and earn points. The bad thing is that a cannot live for 5 sec with a good genoer in your base, and that's not funny, really X( . Geno in missile wars 2 is used more to earning points. Besides, taking out geno would change the balance of the map, like joevano said.

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Post by llrr » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:10 pm

umm, how many people actually care more about the balance of the map and the popularity of it? i'm talking about the gameplay not the popularity, i don't care if not having geno makes the map less popular. it's about how people feel when they are constantly team genoed and cannot get a game going.

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Re: why genocide on ctf maps?

Post by Knox » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:07 pm

llrr wrote:i've always wondered...why have geno flags on ctf maps??
cause its fun!

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Post by Bullet Catcher » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:08 pm

For every tactic there is a counter-tactic. If you don't like your teammates getting genoed, learn the many ways of keeping the opposing team from acquiring and using the geno flag. I rarely use geno, but I score plenty of kills against opponents who try to. This leaves my teammates more free to do whatever it is they prefer, which sometimes includes capturing the flag.

Every map has its own "personality," and dealing with the geno flag is simply (and unalterably, it seems) part of what you must do if you choose to play Missile Wars. Learn it. Embrace it. Or play some other map. There are plenty of choices.

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Post by llrr » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:21 am

ok, this might go on a bit, but how do you learn ways to keep the opposing team from acquiring and using geno? I've tried to get geno and just sit in my base so that there would be no team geno kills and everyone can get a game going, but then there are people saying how that is lame etc.. What i'm saying is that geno is overused. It is overused by people who don't contribute to ctf but rather ffa, which once again would make a ctf map very much pointless. and that time when i sat in my base holding that geno flag, i can tell you it was very boring.

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Post by Zac » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:32 am

i recently went on bzflagr (short time , got lag kicked) and gen was not being used at all. and i can tell you that gameplay was much more interesting. there were many caps by both teams and teamwork was excellent. i have noticed that after you hold on to geno for a certain ammount of time then some of your geno grabbing teammates get very angry, i have even been threatened to get teamkilled if i didnt use it. geno is annoying and for some it does ruin gameplay but the server owner (winny) clearly wants it to stay so that is that

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Post by Cheese Man » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:49 pm

I like the idea of either a time limit on geno or a 1 shot cap. On missile wars, the geno lords were incredibly annoying. u wouldn't get spawnkilled by shooting, but by a teammate getting hit with geno.

I was not able to get a flag for almost 5 whole mins because of geno. i haven't played the server in a week. I like the server, but geno is makin' me angry.

thanks for the concern. all the unregistered people on the server appreciate it.
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Post by Bambino » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:51 pm

Just yesterday (Dec. 14) I wanted to see how many times I could geno in one night :D, turns out many many times. But what happened was I would geno and then jump in there base geno, and while I distracted them a player from my team would grab there flag and pass it, when a st was waiting in the middle. overall during my stay at Missile Wars 2 (3 hours) I genoed many times to many to count, BUT my team also capped once every 3-5 minutes so in some sence it can be used as a tactical device and also as a score raiser.

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Post by llrr » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:33 am

looks like people are treating geno as it should be not just a score pumper, a good start i guess, though i have to say although this thread is for some reason directing more at missile wars it would be much appreciated if everyone on every ctf server can consider how they treat geno rather than what it has become: abusive use for score.

thanks to all who have posted.

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Post by Zac » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:03 am

there ae barely any servers opular enought o worry about now. boxy wars is practically dead and bloodbathis barely used anymore either. missile wars is the only ctf that is commonly used so this thread pretty much refers completely to them

(excuse the bad grammer)
Last edited by Zac on Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by joevano » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:39 am

Zac wrote:there ae barely any servers opular enought o worry about now. boxy wars is practically dead and bloodbathis barely used anymore either. missile wars is the only ctf that is commonly used so this thread pretty much refers completely to them
And now is different from when those servers were popular? When the server you mentioned were popular, they were the only "geno-centric" map that was on the list as well. The game has never had enough players to support multiple "geno-centric" maps at one time.
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Post by Zac » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:42 am

fair enough. but if Bloodbath was popular instead of missile wars then the topic would be Bloodbath related then. that is what i meant. llrr said
it would be much appreciated if everyone on every ctf server can consider how they treat geno
but there arent many other geno servers anyway.

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Post by Bambino » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:30 am

There is a fair amount of genocide servers but the geno is randomly placed on the map, unlike Missile Wars where it stays in the same general location (center of the map on the highest tower and it also drops down one level) but Missile Wars, in my opinion is the map is the most popular geno map because everyine knows where it is.
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Post by llrr » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:06 am

@Sniper15: Missile Wars, in my opinion is the map is the most popular geno map because everyine knows where it is.<<<this is not really a good thing

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Post by Zac » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:38 am

agreed llrr. and if the geno flag is randomly placed then it isnt a geno map is it?

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Post by Bambino » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:44 pm

Yes llrr, Missile Wars is by far the most popular genocide map out there, if it were placed in random areas (I know it won't happen) then there would be more players out in the field hunting for it (and more st hunting them) and fewer genos. I personally think that it's in a good spot at the top center because of the towers.
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Re: why genocide on ctf maps?

Post by RexFlex » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:47 pm

In my experience with MW2, the geno is rarely used to actually help capture the flag. The far majority of cases is just the geno fans rocking up points. And this is where the flaw in geno lies - the scoring system is too attractive. It shouldn't be, as the point of CTF isn't to rock up the kills at all. But clearly it is still more important than capturing the flag to some.

Aside from newbies not knowing enough to get out of the way of geno shots, there is another class of geno targets who themselves are taking on the geno flag holder at all costs so that they can get the flag themselves. If they get hit because their personal score only goes down by 1 point, whereas if they manage to get through, they have a chance at scoring far more. They don't care that the rest of the team suffers.

The only way to fix this in my view without getting rid of the geno flag from the map is to make the scoring system penalise you a point for every team member that is killed if you get hit by geno. It would seem a less attractive flag to the kill point seekers but still leave it just as attractive to break the hold the other team has over their camp in order to capture the flag.
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Post by Bullet Catcher » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:38 pm

llrr wrote:how do you learn ways to keep the opposing team from acquiring and using geno? I've tried to get geno and just sit in my base so that there would be no team geno kills and everyone can get a game going, but then there are people saying how that is lame
First, be less concerned with what others say about you. People will complain about any tactic that works to their disadvantage.

As you have discovered, simply holding the geno flag to prevent others from getting it is not much fun so here are a couple of suggestions:

1. Grab a CLoak flag (so you can't be lasered) and camp in one of the skyboxes. Shoot enemy tanks that land on the geno platform, but be ready to jump out of the way if they get it anyway.

2. Grab a Laser flag and camp on the platform above your base pad. Jump to shoot enemy tanks that land on the geno platform, but beware of enemy lasers jumping up to shoot you from the top of their castle wall.

There are many other ways to make life miserable for the geno fans. Watch what other players do and use your imagination.

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Re: why genocide on ctf maps?

Post by llrr » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:36 am

Bullet Catcher: i'm not saying there aren't ways to stop opposing teams from getting geno, i know all those tactics you've suggested. that's not my main concern. My concern isn't about what ways one can get geno to rack up points or how one could stop the opposing teams from getting geno, but rather i see it as wayy too overused for personal gains. I like rexflex's idea of losing the same amount of points as your whole team if you get genoed. that way the risk works both ways. Now it is much one sided as the player who gets hit only loses 1 point where as the player who geno kills gets a ton of points.
and @sniper: it would actually be not bad if people have to go out to hunt the geno flag, because they expose themselves to fire when they drop any flag they hold. MW is a very flag dependent map, if you don't have any flags then the chances are you will get killed quickly. Imagine if lots of players are actually outside their base for once, wouldn't that be a change? and like bloodbath, if one team could control the midfield,then capping tactics become much more important, as any players already near opponents' base would want to cap.

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Re: why genocide on ctf maps?

Post by ducatiwannabe » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:00 am

Alright, people say Genocide makes people go after personal gain far too much, and detracts attention from capturing flags. Bottom line is, Rabbit Hunt, Capture the Flag, and Free For All servers... every single one... people go for personal gain. That's why people play online games. I understand that Genocide is a popular flag because it provides fast gain. So, probably, the best solution in a map like Missile War 2 is to lower shotlimit to 1 on Genocide. As long as you're talking about Genocide you might as well bring up Guided Missiles and so on and so forth. If a flag like Genocide gives too much gain too quickly in your opinion, then perhaps (especially on busy servers) it should remain in the 1-3 shot limit area (as Missile War 2 is). Then, encourage the use of other flags with a higher shot limit and make it more fun to use those. Any game with Capture the Flag mode that doesn't have a score entirely reliant on flag captures is going to have problems with power ups, or even normal tank bullets... because people want personal gain.

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